dwai

Indian Martial Arts -- a good resource

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On 1/30/2021 at 1:25 AM, Nungali said:

It probably  seems that way to you .  I can tell because when I read some of your responses below , it seems you haven't a clue what I mean .

 

It's not that it seems that way. It's that it IS that way. I'm just calling it what it is.

 

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Here is an example ,   what you are responding to is a response to what you said .   You might not 'need it' .   Just like I might not NEED you to respond to what I say , but you do .

 

'Such is life '  .

 

You were the one making assumptions. You needed to be corrected and received a response.

 

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Ummm , no . You misread again , as I said above .    What you are saying here is a response to my  ; " Regardless of 'style' , such a person who had   (ie. my previous ; '   more experienced in fighting and training, building up strength, endurance, innovation and tactics )  would make a good Kalaripayattu and one that does not would not make a very good Kalaripayattu.

 

So  if you read what I wrote (and following previous comments that this response was written in relation to ie Q ; ' What makes good Kalaripayattu   ) I was writing ; '  a person ( a  Kalaripayattu ) who had    more experienced in fighting and training, building up strength, endurance, innovation and tactics   would make a good Kalaripayattu and one that does not would not make a very good Kalaripayattu. ' And I believe that applies to any style (as well as  Kalaripayattu .

 

But if you think this is erroneous , then it conflicts with what you are saying below  about fighting experience and training . And it might help to understand why YOU are not being understood when you declare this is what you have been saying all along .

 

All heart and no skills will get you knocked out. Why waste a a natural fighter and confine him to something that doesn't work (kalaripayattu)?

 

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Agreed !  But  ...    Taking Ueshiba's view,  and  in my experience,   one can do effective martial arts with a haracentric view !  That's gotta be even more extreme than a mere geocentric one !  That is ' when someone seizes my wrist , I do not circle around them , I stand still and rotate the whole Universe around my  hara .'

 

I have yet to see functional aikido. Some people mention "pre-war aikido" and how it was very effective but I have my doubts. The aikido I've seen is really flowery and something that goes in the useless "martial" arts bin.

 

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Close,  that isn't actually what I was 'trying to do '  .... although the 'box' part is right .

 

Its more;  I see YOU in the box already ... and me   

 

 

 

BackLoneGalapagoshawk-max-1mb.gif

 

You need a more constructive way to deal with hallucinations. Poor thing...

 

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yeah, thats good .  Nothing to do about what  I was complaining about though .

 

You were making references to knife attacks. I think goshin jutsu takes a very distant third place to having a fire arm. Not finding yourself under such circumstances takes first place.

 

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What ! You said you dont see horse stance it in MMA . I posted a vid on how you do see it .  With an explanation about peoples confusion about it as a prelude in the vid .

 

Now you respond to that by citing   basically the same as  what they guy in the vid and  I, myself previously said .

 

MMA techniques are being used. These guys probably never got into a static horse stance like traditional martial artists do. 

 

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You are doing it again !

 

I posted a vid of TWO GUYS drilling with each other .  When you practice alone you are visualising it !

 

Are you suggesting that the guys in the vid are part visualising and part doing it ? 

 

Could be possible that they were partly visualizing it. Why don't you make better use of your expertise and explain the purpose behind this technique?

 

In taekwondo we did the exact same drill. The difference there was that we would turn the blocking arm clockwise wise with the attackers arm and use the chambered hand to punch. Even back then it made absolutely no sense to stand in front of an attacker with a raised arm and with the other hand retracted all the way back.

 

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DUDE , are claiming to have done boxing ? !  Did you ever hear a voice off in your corner  yelling " Hands  up ! Hands UP ! "  ?

 

DUDE, we weren't talking about boxing!

 

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or do you have trouble responding to comments that need to be understood in relation to what THEY are responding to ?

 

I gave you a clear and direct response. You just didn't like it. That's YOUR business so keep your emotions in check. 

 

The only logical reason to chamber your hand during that specific drill is to simulate a grab (in the dojang the person doing the downward strike was simulating a knife attack) and from there we throw a punch. Thats at the green belt level if I remember correctly. The more advanced students had a variety of ways to respond smoothly and quickly to control the attacker through grappling, knee strikes and throws. Really cool stuff. 

 

The chambered hand needs to be doing something. Grabbing the attacker is the only logical conclusion as the person on the defensive end DOES NOT want to get clocked. 

 

 

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Oh , sorry I must be confused again .

 

Believe me, I know

 

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But you seemed to have interpreted  that in your own ways .

 

Check your wording. Or do you paraphrase yourself?

 

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Out of existence like a ;   "  a miserable, formless entity floating in virtual space with a big mouth and a whole lot of useless, illogical things to say."  ?

 

Sounds about right.

 

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This part of  our argument  was never about if America was directly at war or not it was about Okinawans feeling pissed at Americans for bombing and invading them .

 

Now I REALLY think you cant follow a thread .  Or even understand what people are REALLY saying .

 

I'd venture to say that you have  such 'efficient ' blinkers on that  you cant help seeing things as the way YOU want them to be .

 

- probably fuelled by what you are holding onto from the past , which you didnt address back then , as you admitted in your first post her , when you decided to  challenge me  .  :)

 

 

Dont be silly .

 

and .. you are paraphrasing again .  I bet you would get  a surprise to go back and read what I DID say about this .

 

I said invaded Okinawa  .... not a 'war between' .  See how you change things ?

 

When you say "The system was taught  by the destroyed and defeated Okinawans  to the Americans that defeated them" it implies that the war was DIRECTLY between the US and Okinawa. This is poor grammar on your part.  

 

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Do you have any of those properties I could look at  ?    B)

 

https://www.amazon.com/Astronaut-Relaxing-Beach-Framed-Poster/dp/B07C3CHBX5

 

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Nope . you just made that up .   They had many concepts of sparing . And to claim they didnt is worthy of a LOL

 

But you just made up your own claim that you are lolling at   ....    LOL .

 

I didn't make that up. These are claims being made on obscure martial arts forums. The same forums your favorite karate historian gets his sources from.

 

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 The claim was  about  the particular method  of fighting that got developed for sports karate , not  too suggest that no sparring was ever done in japan before the French Savate team got there or that  the  " Japanese didn't understand the concept of sparring until the French arrived . "  

 

- see what you do ?

 

Ask your karate historian to cite his sources. It's only a matter of time until his claims devolve into what I "made up" moments back.

 

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.Now before you go off on one of your misunderstanding again  ...  I am not supporting the '  Karate nerd' here , I am just clarifying that which you are changing  -   in your  attempt to make your argument look better .   Or its that misreading thing again .

 

I don't have to make my argument look better. Your karate historians sources will do it for me. 

 

 

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On 1/30/2021 at 2:05 AM, Nungali said:

Do you still practice and if so what ?    Because its a little unclear wther you just had a few lessons or stuck at these long enough to gain valid experience .

 

I haven't stepped foot into a dojang in decades. Don't plan on it either. 

 

Haven't done boxing since COVID hit and I haven't done judo in several years and I miss it a ton. I want to go back into both but we'll see if this pandemic will finally start to die out a little bit.

Edited by Oneironaut
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On 1/29/2021 at 8:56 PM, Oneironaut said:

 

Pehlwani looks very interesting. 

 

 

Kushti (aka pehalwani) has a very glorious history in India. It is a limited form of a more comprehensive art called vajra mushti (don’t look for videos of this on YouTube, you’ll get some brass knuckle stuff which is not the real thing).


BTW, it has been¬†clear for a while now,¬†that you‚Äôve come to ‚Äúdiscuss‚Ä̬†something with an obvious chip on your shoulder. For those of us who can see through your bluster it is¬†clear that you don‚Äôt really know much in practical terms, but certainly have a lot of strong opinions.¬†
 

The purpose of this thread was to share a resource for Kalaripayattu and Indian martial arts for those who might be interested, not to present a ‚Äúthis vs that‚ÄĚ scenario. Now I think you‚Äôve overstayed your welcome on this thread. If you want to discuss the efficacy of one martial art over another, start another thread and duke it out with whoever is interested over there.¬†

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On 1/29/2021 at 6:41 PM, Oneironaut said:

 

They don't! But they also don't need "martial" arts that instills a false sense of confidence.

 

Martial arts may not be for everyone but getting a little bit of exercise and having fun with some light, friendly sparring while not trying to hurt one another could be a way of helping people be healthy. 

 

Not that I know of. But in how many parts of the "civilized" world can one carry sharp objects or a firearm? Even in those places where you may be able to you can't always rely on having them. 

 

I don't encourage this kind of primitive, unintelligent behavior. 

 

 

My experience of course is anecdotal, but I've been involved in a number of martial arts classes over the years. In every class, there were the fighter and non-fighters. Every "fight" story I've heard was either 1) a fight they picked or escalated or 2) a fight they could have avoided. I've been told that in my area, MMA people like to go to bars and try to start fights. I don't hang out at bars, so I don't know. But ask yourself--- how many mature adults actually get into fights? Not many. 

 

So if I were to generalize, most people who are using their MA skills are picking fights. The same thing happens with the military. When you give a person a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Good fighters, IME, develop a type of violent mentality. However, a good martial artist will develop awareness and calmness. 

 

Ironically, the leading causes of death are health and stress related. So a martial art that teaches one to discipline and stress reduction is probably a better choice than learning to fight. And as far as violent death goes, the person most likely to kill you is yourself (suicide). The second most likely person is one's male partner (boyfriend/husband). 

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8 hours ago, dwai said:

BTW, it has been¬†clear for a while now,¬†that you‚Äôve come to ‚Äúdiscuss‚Ä̬†something with an obvious chip on your shoulder. For those of us who can see through your bluster it is¬†clear that you don‚Äôt really know much in practical terms, but certainly have a lot of strong opinions.¬†

 

Chip on my shoulder? Yeah sure. 

 

It's become rather obvious that your newfound clarity is neither true nor reliable. I can ask you if you're trying to convince me, yourself (or others) but I'm not expecting an honest answer out of you. It's become obvious that it's something you have keep telling yourself so you can sleep better at night. 

 

As I said earlier. Take your best "fighters" from kalaripayattu and bring them into a kick boxing gym. See where that goes....

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12 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

It's not that it seems that way. It's that it IS that way. I'm just calling it what it is.

 

 

You were the one making assumptions. You needed to be corrected and received a response.

 

 

All heart and no skills will get you knocked out. Why waste a a natural fighter and confine him to something that doesn't work (kalaripayattu)?

 

 

and when I explain something and show how you where wrong ... you just ignore that and witch to some other   thing .

 

12 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

I have yet to see functional aikido. Some people mention "pre-war aikido" and how it was very effective but I have my doubts. The aikido I've seen is really flowery and something that goes in the useless "martial" arts bin.

 

 

You need a more constructive way to deal with hallucinations. Poor thing...

 

 and again

 

 

12 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

You were making references to knife attacks. I think goshin jutsu takes a very distant third place to having a fire arm. Not finding yourself under such circumstances takes first place.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

 

MMA techniques are being used. These guys probably never got into a static horse stance like traditional martial artists do. 

 

Oh ... back to step 2 again  ?

 

 step 1 ; never  a horse stance  used in MMA . ( I show him vid that shows they do  )  

 

step 2   " that isnt a proper horse stance !   '  .

 

(  I explain how the guy on vid addresses  this at the beginning )

 

 Step 3 .  Gives new opinion that has now morphed into what I and the guy on the vid said .   :D

 

(so I point that out . )   

 

Step 4 . You affirm that MMA techniques are being used in an MMA vid I post  ( well done ! )  and then revert back to your step 1

 

 

12 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

 

Could be possible that they were partly visualizing it.

 

:D 

 

YOU agree with my ridiculous scenario ?   people practice bunkai with a part real techique they do with some body parts and visualise a techniques they going to do with other body parts at the same.

 

About time you admitted you have not got a clue  about the answer to my question about hikite  ... which, by now, you have probably forgot

 

 

12 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

 

 

Why don't you make better use of your expertise and explain the purpose behind this technique?

 

 I would ,  if someone could ask properly and not deliberately try to misinterpret what I say  , and then laugh and mock at the stuff they made up but attribute to me . 

 

 

12 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

In taekwondo we did the exact same drill. The difference there was that we would turn the blocking arm clockwise wise with the attackers arm and use the chambered hand to punch. Even back then it made absolutely no sense to stand in front of an attacker with a raised arm and with the other hand retracted all the way back.

 

So, hiw come you got so 'uppity' when I suggested the same thing   about it making  ' absolutely no sense '

 

 

12 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

 

DUDE, we weren't talking about boxing!

 

 

I gave you a clear and direct response. You just didn't like it. That's YOUR business so keep your emotions in check. 

 

 

More diversions and not answering the question

 

12 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

The only logical reason to chamber your hand during that specific drill is to simulate a grab (in the dojang the person doing the downward strike was simulating a knife attack) and from there we throw a punch. Thats at the green belt level if I remember correctly. The more advanced students had a variety of ways to respond smoothly and quickly to control the attacker through grappling, knee strikes and throws. Really cool stuff. 

 

The chambered hand needs to be doing something. Grabbing the attacker is the only logical conclusion as the person on the defensive end DOES NOT want to get clocked. 

 

 

 

Believe me, I know

 

 

Check your wording. Or do you paraphrase yourself?

 

 

Sounds about right.

 

 

When you say "The system was taught  by the destroyed and defeated Okinawans  to the Americans that defeated them" it implies that the war was DIRECTLY between the US and Okinawa. This is poor grammar on your part.  

 

 

and this whole issue about America not invading Okinawa is pure stupidity and obstinacy on your part ,

 

12 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Astronaut-Relaxing-Beach-Framed-Poster/dp/B07C3CHBX5

 

 

I didn't make that up. These are claims being made on obscure martial arts forums. The same forums your favorite karate historian gets his sources from.

 

 

Ask your karate historian to cite his sources. It's only a matter of time until his claims devolve into what I "made up" moments back.

 

 

I don't have to make my argument look better. Your karate historians sources will do it for me. 

 

 

 

Come back and try a different approach with me and I will explain it to you .

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12 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

I haven't stepped foot into a dojang in decades. Don't plan on it either. 

 

Haven't done boxing since COVID hit and I haven't done judo in several years and I miss it a ton. I want to go back into both but we'll see if this pandemic will finally start to die out a little bit.

 

Well I thought you did boxing .

 

Thats why I asked about if you ever heard 'hands up' coming from your corner . and that was in relation NOT to whether we WHERE taking about boxing or not , but the the  silliness  of withdrawing the other hand in hikite while punching, when you are practising against another and you DONT actually grab them and pull them in , thus leaving that side of your head unguarded .

 

why has this been so hard to understand what I am saying . I have explained it about 4 different ways , even with video demo

 

:huh:

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8 hours ago, dwai said:

Kushti (aka pehalwani) has a very glorious history in India. It is a limited form of a more comprehensive art called vajra mushti (don’t look for videos of this on YouTube, you’ll get some brass knuckle stuff which is not the real thing).


BTW, it has been¬†clear for a while now,¬†that you‚Äôve come to ‚Äúdiscuss‚Ä̬†something with an obvious chip on your shoulder. For those of us who can see through your bluster it is¬†clear that you don‚Äôt really know much in practical terms, but certainly have a lot of strong opinions.¬†
 

The purpose of this thread was to share a resource for Kalaripayattu and Indian martial arts for those who might be interested, not to present a ‚Äúthis vs that‚ÄĚ scenario. Now I think you‚Äôve overstayed your welcome on this thread. If you want to discuss the efficacy of one martial art over another, start another thread and duke it out with whoever is interested over there.¬†

 

Good idea and sorry for the disruption, I did  try to get back on topic more than once  ... but THIS guy !   :rolleyes:  .... what you said above

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32 minutes ago, Oneironaut said:

 

Chip on my shoulder? Yeah sure. 

 

It's become rather obvious that your newfound clarity is neither true nor reliable. I can ask you if you're trying to convince me, yourself (or others) but I'm not expecting an honest answer out of you. It's become obvious that it's something you have keep telling yourself so you can sleep better at night. 

 

As I said earlier. Take your best "fighters" from kalaripayattu and bring them into a kick boxing gym. See where that goes....

 

Definitely a chip  ... a beam even .

 

Take his advice while he is just posting as a member , before he goes into moderator mode  ... and when that happens , you will see how fast  you can loose your style  of 'argument'  here .

 

 

.

Edited by Nungali
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Notice how it's the Kalaripyattu guys that have to prove themselves in a kick boxing gym. 

 

Why not kick boxers grab swords or staffs and go into a Kalari? 

 

Oh wait, like most things in life, it's a bit more complicated than that. 

 

 

Edited by Nam Sao
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16 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Definitely a chip  ... a beam even .

 

Take his advice while he is just posting as a member , before he goes into moderator mode  ... and when that happens , you will see how fast  you can loose your style  of 'argument'  here .

 

 

.

The thing about giving a long rope is, one could use it to climb out of a deep hole they've dug themselves into... or...:rolleyes:

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10 hours ago, Nam Sao said:

Notice how it's the Kalaripyattu guys that have to prove themselves in a kick boxing gym. 

 

Why not kick boxers grab swords or staffs and go into a Kalari? 

 

Oh wait, like most things in life, it's a bit more complicated than that. 

 

 

 

Its been a rather dumb comparison all along . Like I aid earlier   about those long flexible whip swords .  MMA guy would find it hard to do even the drill associated with them.

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On 1/31/2021 at 10:11 AM, forestofemptiness said:

Every "fight" story I've heard was either 1) a fight they picked or escalated or 2) a fight they could have avoided. I've been told that in my area, MMA people like to go to bars and try to start fights. I don't hang out at bars, so I don't know. But ask yourself--- how many mature adults actually get into fights? Not many. 

 

The answer to that is rather straight forward. It's because they're stupid hence their career choice. They don't ALL fall under this camp (there are exceptions) but so many do.  

 

On 1/31/2021 at 10:11 AM, forestofemptiness said:

So if I were to generalize, most people who are using their MA skills are picking fights. The same thing happens with the military. When you give a person a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Good fighters, IME, develop a type of violent mentality. However, a good martial artist will develop awareness and calmness. 

 

Part of this could also be a result of CTE. Now combine that with a really bad ego and you have a recipe for disaster. 

 

It's about finding balance. You need a martial art that actually works in practice but also one that won't encourage you to destroy your mind, body and cultivate a cave man mentality. 

 

The martial arts world is very polarized. On one end you have those who promote arts that are really just that. ART. Nothing martial about them and they could only give one a false sense of confidence and possibly get one hurt. On the other end you have martial arts such as boxing that creates phenomenal fighters but this acquisition of martial ability comes at the expense of your health. There is no balance here. 

On 1/31/2021 at 5:13 PM, Nungali said:

and when I explain something and show how you where wrong ... you just ignore that and witch to some other   thing .

 

And that's the issue. YOU explaining things. For 50 years in the martial arts you're really bad at explanations. 

 

On 1/31/2021 at 5:13 PM, Nungali said:

and again

 

Oh ... back to step 2 again  ?

 

 step 1 ; never  a horse stance  used in MMA . ( I show him vid that shows they do  )  

 

step 2   " that isnt a proper horse stance !   '  .

 

(  I explain how the guy on vid addresses  this at the beginning )

 

 Step 3 .  Gives new opinion that has now morphed into what I and the guy on the vid said .   :D

 

(so I point that out . )   

 

Step 4 . You affirm that MMA techniques are being used in an MMA vid I post  ( well done ! )  and then revert back to your step 1

 

:D 

 

Anybody could go and make a video and extrapolate some sort of squatting posture as a horse stance. American football players get into a "horse stance". Wrestlers get into a "horse stance". 

 

Where is the martial practicality in using a static horse stance (the same horse stance used in martial arts drills) in a dynamic fight? Refrain from pointing to that ridiculous video. It hasn't and won't prove you correct on anything.  

 

On 1/31/2021 at 5:13 PM, Nungali said:

YOU agree with my ridiculous scenario ?   people practice bunkai with a part real techique they do with some body parts and visualise a techniques they going to do with other body parts at the same. 

 

About time you admitted you have not got a clue  about the answer to my question about hikite  ... which, by now, you have probably forgot

 

You're speaking about beginners techniques and making all this mention about how it likely wouldn't work in real life scenarios (and I'm in agreement with you). Your 50 years of martial arts experience forgot to remind you that there are variations and more dynamic uses of these exact same drills and techniques. Do I have to remind you that you'll see this at higher levels? Unlike you I wasn't "assuming" that this is all there is to that drill when it comes to the chambered hand.

 

Even if the most instinctive reaction for someone would be a punch under these circumstances are you trying to tell me that traditional martial artists are so stupid that they can't pick up on nuances, make even the slightest modifications to their guard, their footwork, their blocks, parries, angling, their body positioning so that they can hit and not be hit under similar or even varying attacks? I don't know what answers YOU are looking for (answers that you obviously don't have yourself) but for me hikite is very simple. Grab/pull for off balancing an adversary. 

 

In the beginning levels of taekwondo we practiced all these combat forms (YES! They use the word "combat") and all these different drills and repeated them until we were bored to tears. It was the high level instructors that brought these things to life including the drill that you've obviously figured out. While the karate/taekwondo ways of this specific drill may be effective at higher levels I think there are more immediate ways of achieving the same end goal of neutralizing that situation.

 

 

On 1/31/2021 at 5:13 PM, Nungali said:

So, hiw come you got so 'uppity' when I suggested the same thing   about it making  ' absolutely no sense '

 

For the reasons stated above. I never claimed nor believed at any point to have it "all figured out". That's your argument based on your crazy assumptions and false generations that others in here obviously share with you. 

 

On 1/31/2021 at 5:13 PM, Nungali said:

More diversions and not answering the question

 

There is no diversion. I gave you a clear and direct answer. You didn't like the answer and invented things about me diverting the topic. 

 

On 1/31/2021 at 5:13 PM, Nungali said:

and this whole issue about America not invading Okinawa is pure stupidity and obstinacy on your part ,

 

Please refer us back to where I said that the Americans did not invade Okinawa. 

 

You accuse others of paraphrasing, purposely misunderstanding or mis-wording you but it's obvious that you're just projecting your own faults onto others. I don't need to rip any pages out of your book. I'd rather just be straight forward and honest. 

 

On 1/31/2021 at 5:13 PM, Nungali said:

Come back and try a different approach with me and I will explain it to you .

 

Save it. I think I've had enough with your "explanations". It's not conducive to anything of value. 

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On 1/31/2021 at 5:18 PM, Nungali said:

Well I thought you did boxing .

 

I thought this was already answered ages ago. 

 

On 1/31/2021 at 5:18 PM, Nungali said:

 

Thats why I asked about if you ever heard 'hands up' coming from your corner . and that was in relation NOT to whether we WHERE taking about boxing or not , but the the  silliness  of withdrawing the other hand in hikite while punching, when you are practising against another and you DONT actually grab them and pull them in , thus leaving that side of your head unguarded .

 

why has this been so hard to understand what I am saying . I have explained it about 4 different ways , even with video demo

 

:huh:

 

STOP! 

 

The world is a better place without any of your "explanations"

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On 1/31/2021 at 5:23 PM, Nungali said:

Take his advice while he is just posting as a member , before he goes into moderator mode  ... and when that happens , you will see how fast  you can loose your style  of 'argument' here .

 

He has no argument. My "style" of argument is nothing fancy. Just be honest and straight forward. Say it like it is which is obviously very unpopular here. 

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13 hours ago, Nam Sao said:

Notice how it's the Kalaripyattu guys that have to prove themselves in a kick boxing gym. 

 

You can't classify it as a "martial" art if it's unproven to work. It may be an art but there isn't any thing particularly "martial" about it. 

 

I'm not the biggest proponent of cage fighting but in the earlier days we got a good idea of what works in a live combat scenario and what doesn't. This kalaripyattu stuff can be thrown in the same bin as the other "martial" arts that don't work. 

 

"It's not the style but the fighter" while true, cannot be liberally applied across all styles. If the "martial" art doesn't work then it doesn't work. Period. 

 

 

13 hours ago, Nam Sao said:

Why not kick boxers grab swords or staffs and go into a Kalari? 

 

Oh wait, like most things in life, it's a bit more complicated than that. 

 

This is a clear admission of it's ineffectiveness in unarmed combat. 

 

Take it out with the fencers.

 

10 hours ago, dwai said:

The thing about giving a long rope is, one could use it to climb out of a deep hole they've dug themselves into... or...:rolleyes:

 

How poetic. You hanging by your own rope of false wisdom and pseudo enlightenment. You won't be "hanging out" by yourself for too long. Ngali may be your ideal companion. 

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Now that the noisy element has been disabled, I am curious about the phenomenon of always reducing everything down to cage fighting -- why is that so? Is it simply a case of lack of exposure to real violence? I suspect most of these MMA-enthusiasts(TMA vs MMA) have never really seen violence, and view the world from the prism of their limited (or negligible) youtube black-belts.

 

Anyone who's ever been in a real fight will know that none of the so-called "effective" cage-ready martial arts are really very useful in the real world, where there is an assailant (usually there are more than one) who is hell-bent on causing grievous injury (with weapons etc). Movements have to be minimalistic, direct, non-telegraphed, and effective. Which is sort of the anti-thesis of cage-fighting, which involves massively telegraphed punches, kicks, takedowns, etc, etc. 

 

Self-defense and sport-fighting have very dramatic and significant differences. Self-defense calls for situational-awareness, being able to use improvised weapons and minimize effort while doing so. Avoid confrontation if you can, and finish the fight fast if you absolutely have to. 

 

I remember another tale from my childhood, one of the guys who worked for my dad (they built industrial heavy machinery, etc) used to be a militant from the days of what is called the Naxalite movement in India (basically Maoist rebels) in the 1970s -- was a very nice guy, but misguided as a youth. He literally spent his teenage engaged in pitched battles on the streets, shooting, stabbing, slashing, lobbing bombs at political rivals. He was in his mid-twenties when he moved to the south, where we were. 

 

He was a diminutive figure -- 5'4" tall, hardly weighing 110 lbs, if you saw him, he'd look like a waif. But he was tough as nails. One night, he caught a burglar in one of our neighbor's home -- just by sheer misfortune (of that burglar, who it turns out had quite a reputation for being a tough guy, violent, etc). The burglar was perhaps closer to 6 feet tall, weighted at least 40-50 lbs more than our friend.

 

Using a Khukri and his bare hands, he made Mr. Burglar literally cake his pants. Held him down until the police arrived to take him away. 

Edited by dwai

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I have to offer a bit of disagreement with this. I’m an advocate of traditional martial arts for many reasons. I also have a lot of respect for MMA training and techniques. While not all MMA methods are street effective, many are. Grappling can be extremely effective, as can the elements of muay thai and boxing that have been embraced in MMA. 

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5 minutes ago, steve said:

I have to offer a bit of disagreement with this. I’m an advocate of traditional martial arts for many reasons. I also have a lot of respect for MMA training and techniques. While not all MMA methods are street effective, many are. Grappling can be extremely effective, as can the elements of muay thai and boxing that have been embraced in MMA. 

But, on the street, will these techniques really look like they do in the ring?

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I am a grappler by instinct, training, I wrestled in my early years, with success at my weight class.

A dabbled in Karate, never made a commitment to any formal training.

Learned early on either walk on by, if possible, if not commit all in. As much damage to as many as possible as quickly as possible.

Still rely on judgement to avoid when ever possible!

No dark alleys for me.

 

Failing that feet do your job.

Because at that point its Def Con 2.

 

I employed a full on full nelson twice in my life. Both times opponent was much larger than I. Didn't see an alternative.

Both times I prevailed, attacker passed out.

Took the second attacker a bit to recover, I really thought I killed the guy.

We both learned a lesson that day...

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20 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

You can't classify it as a "martial" art if it's unproven to work. It may be an art but there isn't any thing particularly "martial" about it. 

 

I'm not the biggest proponent of cage fighting but in the earlier days we got a good idea of what works in a live combat scenario and what doesn't. This kalaripyattu stuff can be thrown in the same bin as the other "martial" arts that don't work. 

 

"It's not the style but the fighter" while true, cannot be liberally applied across all styles. If the "martial" art doesn't work then it doesn't work. Period. 

 

 

This is a clear admission of it's ineffectiveness in unarmed combat. 

 

Take it out with the fencers.

 

 

There are numerous problems with this way of seeing things, to name a few:

 

For one, you start out talking about the "martial" aspect of martial arts, but by the end of your post you focus solely on unarmed combat. Martial arts covers far more than unarmed combat. 

 

Second, competitive fighting is not the only indicator of the effectiveness of a martial art. Why do competitive fighters generally beat non-competitive fighters? It's pretty simple: they compete. There is a world of difference between those who train to compete and those who  don't. Whether it's kung fu, bjj, boxing, muay thai, etc...none of it works as well in a cage or competitive setting unless you train for that. 

 

Also, comparing martial arts only in light of competitive fighting has its flaws. Some arts simply have never had a competitive format because they were never intended for that purpose. Using boxing as an example, it has been trained as a competitive sport for at least centuries (like far longer). Something like Wing Chun on the other hand, they're only entering that world now. And like with many beginnings, there's going to be trial and error. 

 

Another issue is that most self defense situations are not at the level of competitive fighting. It's funny how some people act like it's generally competitive fighters that are starting fights in bars and trying to rob people. One may not be able to win a fight in a ring or cage, but if they can knock out the angry drunk at the bar or the crackhead trying to rob them, then their martial arts skill is indeed extremely useful for self defense. 

 

Finally, I think it's safe to say that whether it's intentional or not, you have a strawman view of stuff like Chinese martial arts. For example, you have yet to explain why you insist that the Tai Chi guy that Xu Xiaodong beat up was an actual master. If you sincerely are able to look at the supposed "kung fu masters" that Xu Xiaodong has beaten and conclude that those were legitimate masters, you have an unrealistically low standard for those arts (and a low standard for research, at least on this topic, if you made this conclusion while never finding out about the Sifus of these supposed masters).

 

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21 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

The answer to that is rather straight forward. It's because they're stupid hence their career choice. They don't ALL fall under this camp (there are exceptions) but so many do.  

 

 

Part of this could also be a result of CTE. Now combine that with a really bad ego and you have a recipe for disaster. 

 

It's about finding balance. You need a martial art that actually works in practice but also one that won't encourage you to destroy your mind, body and cultivate a cave man mentality. 

 

The martial arts world is very polarized. On one end you have those who promote arts that are really just that. ART. Nothing martial about them and they could only give one a false sense of confidence and possibly get one hurt. On the other end you have martial arts such as boxing that creates phenomenal fighters but this acquisition of martial ability comes at the expense of your health. There is no balance here. 

 

And that's the issue. YOU explaining things. For 50 years in the martial arts you're really bad at explanations. 

 

 

Anybody could go and make a video and extrapolate some sort of squatting posture as a horse stance. American football players get into a "horse stance". Wrestlers get into a "horse stance". 

 

Where is the martial practicality in using a static horse stance (the same horse stance used in martial arts drills) in a dynamic fight? Refrain from pointing to that ridiculous video. It hasn't and won't prove you correct on anything.  

 

below you comment  that :  

 " your crazy assumptions and false generations that others in here obviously share with you. "

 

You know why they share them with me ?   Because they are not false assumptions  .

 

YOU are the one making some rather silly basic mistakes here , and others can clearly see it . 

 

Many martial artists realise that a formal practice will be adapted in a dynamic situation , but it seems you  are not one of them .

 

 

Quote

 

 

You're speaking about beginners techniques and making all this mention about how it likely wouldn't work in real life scenarios (and I'm in agreement with you). Your 50 years of martial arts experience forgot to remind you that there are variations and more dynamic uses of these exact same drills and techniques. Do I have to remind you that you'll see this at higher levels? Unlike you I wasn't "assuming" that this is all there is to that drill when it comes to the chambered hand.

 

You will see all sorts of silly karate at 'higher levels ' thats my complaint about it , And the video I posted of that silly hikite movement done by  SENIORS , black belts , making a video to promote their style or technique .

 

 

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Even if the most instinctive reaction for someone would be a punch under these circumstances are you trying to tell me that traditional martial artists are so stupid that they can't pick up on nuances, make even the slightest modifications to their guard,

 

No, I am telling you hat you seem so stupid that you have now gone backwards in comprehension , just when you previously seemed to be half getting what I was saying .

 

Which is , yet again ( for anyone that got confused by Oneironaut's  flapping about )

 

When defending ;

When the punchy guy punches, why does the one defending  fling  one arm out  first and not grab anything, and withdraw that arm while he is  blocking  the punch that is coming, then punch back and  withdraw the other arm .  if hikite is a grab and pull in for a punch, why do hikite while you do a block  ? 

 

 

When attacking :

Why, does punchy guy when attacking the other one , punch with one arm and draw the other arm and hand back to his hip, leaving his guard down and his head exposed ?  The punchy guy is initiating the attack , why pull his hand back as he punches , there was never any punch from the other to seize and pull back . And I am not talking about lone practice in the air , I am talking about two guys practising a techniques .

 

 

 

 

and I fail to see why , with the explained question and the video together , one can  not comprehend the question ?

 

Quote

their footwork, their blocks, parries, angling, their body positioning so that they can hit and not be hit under similar or even varying attacks? I don't know what answers YOU are looking for (answers that you obviously don't have yourself) but for me hikite is very simple. Grab/pull for off balancing an adversary. 

 

yeah it IS simple  and I am not saying why do that i the first pace  .   Its one of the most common bully techniques ' you grab them with one hand and rain punches with the other , as the first thing a person that does not want to fight does, is to flinch, duck, try to get away . Also this is why a few martial arts practice so much  against  being 'seized' .

 

Again, I am talking about what SOME karate practitioners  do in their practice and drills  ... which actually  'goes out the window ' - is NOT done as soon as they do  ( good ) self defence and sparring .  

 

Again, you seem to have gone backwards - you seemed to be getting the point ... but nw you have reverted to what you saying pages back ; you are grabbing and pulling when punching .

 

I am asking why do the movement for every punch and even block when you are not grabbing at all .

 

get it yet ?

 

 

 

Quote

 

In the beginning levels of taekwondo we practiced all these combat forms (YES! They use the word "combat") and all these different drills and repeated them until we were bored to tears. It was the high level instructors that brought these things to life including the drill that you've obviously figured out. While the karate/taekwondo ways of this specific drill may be effective at higher levels I think there are more immediate ways of achieving the same end goal of neutralizing that situation.

 

Oh, sure there are .   Its these type of drills though that I am referring to , a bad drill gives bad habits ; drilling   punching  while you drop your guard is bad practice  ... any one knows that  .... except some of these karate guys .

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

For the reasons stated above. I never claimed nor believed at any point to have it "all figured out". That's your argument based on your crazy assumptions and false generations that others in here obviously share with you. 

 

No , they are NOT   crazy assumptions that others here share with me .

 

Unless you are going to postulate that  TDBs  is full of crazy people ... except you   ;) 

 

Like I said , karate got adapted so kids could practice  it as a form of  exercise .  I call that 'modern karate' .  Its for kids and sport . It isnt like  traditional old style karate that was used for self defence , fighting  and 'body guard ' work ( including minding the king ) .  Traditional style  ( 'seito' )  is deadly . You cant have kids practising deadly techniques in the school yard ' you want them all in a line m neat, dressed the same way and being respectful, orderly and relatively uninjured .

 

Its just plain common sense !

 

So kids practice like this  ( in one example )  ; 

 

1 . Steps forward and   does a mid section punches at the other  .

 

2.  Moves backward   and stays 'inside' ( the others punch, ie, the defender moves towards or stays on the attackers centre line ) and one  hand  moves forward , as if doing  hikite , and is withdrawn , as the other  arm comes forward and does   an outer block  . The defenders forearm, blocks the punch by striking and diverting the attackers forearm, then he retracts that blocking arm (in a hikite movement )  while he punches back with the other .

 

In seito form (same example )

 

 

 

1 . Steps forward and   does a mid section punches at the other  .

 

2.  Moves off line to the outside , the first movement of  ' one  hand  moves forward , as if doing  hikite ,' is actually a deflection of the others punch, to stop it 'tacking' you as you move to the outside . The other arm moves the opposite way, so as you 'slap' the punch out of the way, you are in a cross arms position ( or 'cross wings '  - as all of this was developed from white crane system - 'Chinese Hand ' ) .

 

outer 'block' movement is a strike ... NOT a block , its a strike , with the back of the knuckles to the outside  of the others elbow at  the 'weak point ' ( kyusho ). While the other hand is retracted to  .... (a)  - 'wings open'  . THEN that striking back fist  turns into an open hand, slides down the others forearm, seizing the wrist and rotating it  into a wrist grab WHILE their other arm comes in to drive a strike into their kidneys, then same hand  does  a palm strike up under their seized arm at the elbow , while the other hand seizing their wrist is rotated towards their face and down and back, while the elbow is rotated  up and forward , driving their body and head down, then you step in and kick, big toe into eye socket , or if they have turned their head away fro protection, into the top of the jaw joint  just below the ear .

 

You cant have kids doing that to each other  .

 

The same with the Inner block ;  the forearm is swept from the outside of the body towards the centre line , using your forearm to deflect a strike on the others forearm .   In Seito, that sweeping across motion is led by the fist with the second knuckle of the second finger  striking the point in the attackers punching wrist

 

Anywhere from H5 to H7 will do it .  A good hit here will disable that arm .

 

Heart-Point-3.gif

 

If they punch after that with their other arm, its a simple matter of swinging your fist back the other way with a back fist to catch them at HT 3 . Disabling that arm . Now you are inside their guards, they have two disabled arms  and your fist /arm is in  the position to bring it down, again striking with the middle knuckle, down the face, below the eye in a whipping motion, or just run it down the front of their body if you dont want to rip half their skin off their face .

 

if you had watched all the Hohan Soken / Dillman  vid above you would have heard this all explained .

 

Dillman  quoting Soken '  'Why you block ? No block ! "  and Dillman ; " Every thing he hit was a pressure point , everything .

 

You cant have kids doing this . Nor can you use it for sprt or competition . 

 

And I am NOT saying it it isnt possible to fight using kids style ,  but it drops your guard and has other mistakes in it and is NOT effective as  real fighting style , its a kids / sport style  - and thats why some 'black belt' karate kids get totally creamed by boxers and other type of MA .

 

 

Quote

 

 

There is no diversion. I gave you a clear and direct answer. You didn't like the answer and invented things about me diverting the topic. 

 

 

Please refer us back to where I said that the Americans did not invade Okinawa. 

 

And YOU refer back to the whole run of the conversation on that topic and what i originally ACTUALLY was referring to .

 

 

Quote

 

You accuse others of paraphrasing, purposely misunderstanding or mis-wording you but it's obvious that you're just projecting your own faults onto others. I don't need to rip any pages out of your book. I'd rather just be straight forward and honest. 

 

No its NOT  just  me, becasue as you said earlier ; 

 

 

" your crazy assumptions and false generations that others in here obviously share with you.  "

 

 

Quote

 

 

Save it. I think I've had enough with your "explanations". It's not conducive to anything of value. 

 

 

I could not give a flying f*** at the Moon about what you think anymore .  The explanation is written out here to help others try and decipher the mess you have made this topic into .

Edited by Nungali

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21 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

I thought this was already answered ages ago. 

 

 

STOP! 

 

The world is a better place without any of your "explanations"

 

You say I am not making sense or know what I am talking about , yet when I clarify it , so that others can understand as well, you dont seem to be able to stand it .

 

 

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21 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

He has no argument. My "style" of argument is nothing fancy. Just be honest and straight forward. Say it like it is which is obviously very unpopular here. 

 

Oh Isee  ... nthing to do with you ...

 

 

its the whole Daobums  site fault  !    None of us like 'the truth '

 

:D 

 

 

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