dwai

Indian Martial Arts -- a good resource

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44 minutes ago, dwai said:

So should I take it that you’re a video specialist? :) 

 

No, I don't do video editing or anything of that nature. 

 

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You can watch a video or two and know? 

 

You can learn a lot by watching. You can learn even more by doing. Why not do both?

 

I consider myself open minded. If kalaripayattu is effective I'd be more than happy to learn. 

 

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That’s how you know Kalaripayattu is “useless”? Because you’ve not seen videos? 

 

No. I've seen numerous videos showing just how ineffective it is. I have yet to see videos demonstrating it's effectiveness. I've asked many times and I have yet to receive any. Please spare me the "kalaripayattu is too dangerous for the cage and for the streets" argument. Or maybe it's such a secretive style that only a few can know it or truly become masters.

Edited by Oneironaut
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25 minutes ago, Oneironaut said:

 

No, I don't do video editing or anything of that nature. 

 

 

You can learn a lot by watching. You can learn even more by doing. Why not do both?

:) 

Quote

 

I consider myself open minded. If kalaripayattu is effective I'd be more than happy to learn. 

Good to know :)

 

Quote

No. I've seen numerous videos showing just how ineffective it is. I have yet to see videos demonstrating it's effectiveness. I've asked many times and I have yet to receive any. Please spare me the "kalaripayattu is too dangerous for the cage and for the streets" argument. 

Ha! One of the best things about learning Kalaripayattu is that you will get a full week of kalari massage before you can begin training.  😁

 

I’ve not seen any videos of “combat” Kalaripayattu online. It doesn’t matter to me. It is a traditional art and has cultural and historic relevance.
 

Also, I can see the “bunkai” when I see a form. So it doesn’t matter if I see in real-time action or not - that’s how I know what I know — the secrets reveal themselves to those who know how to see.

 

I don’t consider a martial art as a set of methods/techniques , but more a philosophy of movement. The philosophy defines the strategy/approach to take in a combat (if the need rises).
 

Of course the drills are needed to develop skills, but skills by themselves are means to an end. Solo drills, kicks, punches, movements, forms. Two person drills, and so on. 

 

Like learning to play scales and chords in a musical instrument.  Practice some standards etc. Once you learn to play the scales and chords so well that you don’t need to think of them anymore, once you have the skill on the instrument, you can improvise musically. 
 

Similarly for the martial arts. Maybe it is an alien concept for many, but it seems to be more so for those who are besotted with amassing techniques and methods. 
 

This guy - Adam Chan is really good. Worth checking out some of what he says 

 

 

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On 1/26/2021 at 5:23 PM, Oneironaut said:

Yes. That's mostly dependent on the style and their approach to techniques that can be applied in a live fight situation against someone with ill intent. Someone that's REALLY trying to hurt you and not just theory. There are full contact karate styles with this approach in mind and if anything is holding karate back from evolving even further it's really the politics. 

 

Where is everyone living that they need a high level of skill in unarmed fighting? Is there a weapons free island or zone like in all the 1980's martial arts movies? Or is this for secret underground bloodsport tournaments? 

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18 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

For the same reason I know that Tai Chi loses to Dutch style kick boxing. Dutch style kick boxing is really karate/muay thai/boxing. What in the world would make you think that kalaripayattu doesn't lost against karate?

 

A nd the same reasons you 'know' everything   :)

 

18 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

You can't fault me for not properly answering poorly worded questions but the intelligible ones have been answered fully and directly. .

 

 

What is very good Kalaripayattu? You accuse others of evading questions but you have yet to fulfill any requests of showing kalaripayattu in all its martial glory. 

 

Its pretty simple to comprehend and any one else here could comprehend it ;   a better fighter will be more experienced in fighting and training, building up strength, endurance, innovation and tactics  . They have much more chance of winning than one that dooesnt . Regardless of 'style' , such a person wh did that would make a good Kalaripayattu and one that does not would not amke a very good Kalaripayattu.

 

Its hard to comprehend that this has to be explained to anyone claiming they know anything about M.A.

 

I am starting to  agree with others observations here that you are trolling .

 

 

18 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

If it's a bad karate guy against a "very good" kalaripayattu I'd still put my money on the trash karate guy. 

 

Well, its your money, you can waste it how you want I suppose . However , your lack of sensible betting doent prove anything !

 

18 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

 

No, there's a sea of evidence. Evidence that's lacking on your part. 

 

 

This was your response to my " Thats no proof of anything . Anyone can just type out words like that its merely  'proof' by personal assertion  ."

 

so to counter that , you personally assert that there is evidence   :D  :D  :D 

 

18 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

My assertion isn't wrong either. I could just as easily say create the conditions for a cross style matchup between a person wielding a gun and another one with a plastic knife and the person using the gun will always win. That's a fact. Saying the opposite (as in your case) is a false equivalency and does not make it tr

 

More of your 'facts' eh ?    More generalised facts that have no room for the skills of the individuals  or   other conditions

 

 

You know so little and generalise so much , one has to assume you  are fairly young  and inexperienced

 

 

 

 

18 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

 

That's the nature of the beast. I didn't make it that way.

 

 

 

Be my guest...

 

 

My elucidation in learning just how severely deluded some people are. All of those were poor examples of horse stance in MMA. The best I've seen so far is using sumo stances to defend against wrestling takedowns. 

 

Errrmmm , of course  you will respond like this 

 

'But that isnt a 'proper' horse stance ! '    :D     The first part of video explains all that . I am wondering if you know the value of using hirse stance within a set of dynamic movements , in real application , or you use it like those guys in the above karate 'demo' would .

 

here is your argument ;  You never see a guy in a deep perfectly aligned horse stance , as practised statically and by oneself,  during an MMA match that is dynamic moving and where anything can happen or change or shift around . It is suggested that is because  MMA is dynamic and is a fight between two people and the stance is adapted ,then when this is  shown  you complain that  its not a horse stance that is  deep, perfectly aligned horse stance, as practised statically and by oneself .

 

WOW  !

 

18 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

 

For no other reason other than your sensei told you to. 

 

Exactly !  And he doesnt know either , his sensai told him . And so on , until one gets back to the real tradition which actually knew about these things .

 

 

18 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

 

Didn't I already answer that?

 

What ? because your 'sensai' told you to  ?

 

Whatever , some people like to practice like that ....  its a wrong teaching though .

 

 

18 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

 

 

When you're doing those upward blocks and chambering your non blocking hand to the hips you're defending against an upward attack and simultaneously bringing your opponent off balance. We used to do the exact same drill in taekwondo as a theoretical knife attack and the chambering was never explained. I never found the technique practical.  

 

how does returning your hand to your hip bring the opponent off balance  IF you have not grabbed anything with it  ? ! 

 

and considering  your opponents other hand than the one he is punching with is also returned to the hip, how you gonna grab it (if thats what you meant ) .  Its the hand that is attacking that should be seized .. and there is a whole art on this , which I posted on here, and it relates to Okinawan 'hand' / dancing .

 

When the attacking hand/ wrist is deflected and seized and drawn in to your hip THAT would put the other off balance.  So, what ? You are expecting another punch at the same time you need to block with an upward block ? It isnt making sense .

 

One hand defelcts, seizes and does hikite to draw off balance and the other attacks , upper block is NOT a blocking technique when done with a hikite .  Its plain common sense , but not that type of sense one will develop from mindless following a Sensai, who mindlessly followed his sensai and so on .

 

Its the same with nearly all the 'blocks' ; gedan bari - 'lower block' , but bari doesnt even mean ' block' . Soto uke  ? Middle outside  block ? Uke doesnt mean block either .

 

One can see the remnants of these techniques in kata , they exist in there in places, like an atrophied appendix, and just about all karateka cant explain why they do it , except 'Sensai said so'

 

Eg  pointing the other hand down and doing hikite with it  before one does a lower block . See the 'ready stance' in the film above ; he steps back and does a lower left block and gets his right at his hip ready to punch .  Also during kata , the other hand is pointed up in the air before the one doing the 'block' moves forward . It all got changed for school kids practice and people still do this new form today , going through all sorts of restrictions and unnatural body movements to try and get it to be practical .

 

18 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

 

Agreed. Isn't this a reason to evolve the art and filter out useless drills and techniques? Perhaps even take the few redeemable drills and techniques from the more obscure styles. Whatever refuses to evolve needs to die out.

 

It seems you are finally starting to 'get it'  .  But that isnt needed  when original forms are available , its all in them , its just that this other stuff, passing off as karate evolved in its place .

 

Hohan Soken left Okinawa before all this change happened . He had a valid tradition descended by family from Bushi Matsamura , probably THE most famous original karateka.   He went to Argentina before it started , missed  WWII , came back later and saw what people where doing and had to ask them what it was . The told him 'karate' ,  he was amazed at the  corruption that had happened to it ,

 

If you have not heard of him I suggest you  or anyone else interested in  karate  ( r its BS modern development  ) watch this video.

 

Normally I would not recommend anything by Dilman , but here  Dilman  he clearly exposes himself and modern karate

 

 

 

18 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

 

Generally speaking and it's something that needed change long ago. Thankfully there are karate styles that have made these changes decades ago. This is why I made no mention of more modernized styles. I'm just allowing you to erroneously paint karate as a monolithic style that falls to the confinements of other traditional martial arts. 

 

Really ?    I am the one that is generalising   now   ! ?    :D    

 

What those karate styles that are changing  are doing is going back and adopting some of the old original teachings and styles . How many of them have 'gone back to Okinawa'  to develop their own skill or styles ?

 

Thing is karate DID devolve into a monolithic style and that was lead by JKA (Japan karate federation ).   You dont seem to realise that my criticisms  are due to me involved  IN karate , personally for decades . I am not some Indian MA guy or a Kung fuer  trying to discredit a different art .

 

I am not painting it as an overall monolithic style  - I am actually saying there are some people in it that know whats going on and have a totally different approach to the way its generally presented and shown and practised . I will admit that I think the 'monolithic style' constitues about 95% of it though .

 

.. and here I do agree with your choice of words ; monolithic ;  (of an organization or system) large, powerful, indivisible, and slow to change.

 

But I have seen JKA loose ground over the last few years .

 

 

18 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

You still haven't answered or demonstrated as to how kalaripayattu does things better?

 

:huh:

 

I never claimed it did     .

 

Did you think that was what I was trying to show ?

 

I claimed a more experienced and trained  person was more likely to win over one not expereinced or trained  ,  and that applies to any style or tradition .

 

18 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

 

Your "FACTS" are not facts at all. It's intellectually dishonest and historically inaccurate to call your claims "facts". The one that holds the most water is the modification for the physical education system. 

 

Pffft !  I can back up everyone of them and show others opinion and research that does likewise .

 

 

18 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

For one the Americans were not at war directly with the Okinawans. 

 

Stop being silly !  Are you claiming that Americans never invaded Okinawa ? That they never occupied Okinawa ?   That Okinawans never fought against them in their homeland ? That American serviceman stationed in Okinawa after the invasion never studied MA from the locals ?   Thats what I am talking about and you know it !  By trying to counter my facts and claiming I am lying  and " intellectually dishonest and historically inaccurate to call your claims "facts". in this regard   by citing that

 

" Americans were not at war directly with the Okinawans. " is stupid and ridiculous and clearly the work of a troll .

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa

 

 

:rolleyes:

 

 

 

18 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

Secondly, I know exactly where you got the "karate stole it's kicks from French Savate" argument. This is a myth that spread across the internet as "historical fact" thanks to unreliable, pseudo history gathered on obscured internet forums from self proclaimed martial arts historians with 0 credentials. Some self proclaimed expert (everyone is an expert on the internet) gathered all this wrong information and bundled it up into a viral YouTube video where it goes unchallenged and passed off as history.

 

Its not history ... its an 'interesting coincidence'  that before savate demo in japan karate did not have those kicks and after it , all of a sudden they did have them . Okinawans never kicked like that and THEY got a huge portion of their stuff from China .

 

18 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

Karate was influenced by Chinese fighting arts with no influence from savate. It's actually far more likely that savate stole it's kicks from kung fu styles as well as from fighters in Thailand during their travels across Asia.

 

Possibly that is wherr Savate got it from. but that doesnt mean that it cold not have gone through savate to Japanese karate .

As I just said , a huge element of  'Chuan fa ' passed into Okinawan MA   and they didnt have kicks like that .  So much so that karate meant 'Chinese hand ' / boxing .  Japan would refuse to recognise anything they stole and adapted after WWII as anything but Japanese . They changed the meaning of karate and adapted other of their MA into it , like movement and footwork and body posture   for the use of certain weapons  and they certainly where not going to admit any Chinese or  French influence .

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19 hours ago, dwai said:

What would be a valid example of that? Point fighting? Cage fighting? Street fight?
 

In Kalaripayattu,  empty hand is the thing of last resort, as I understand it. If swords don’t work, if staves or spears don’t work, if daggers don’t work, then the empty hands come into play. It used to be a battlefield martial art. Sort of like how jujitsu used to be battlefield thing for the samurai. Empty hands only come into play if weapons are out of question. 

 

 

Indeed !  When we are talking about the real meaning of 'battle' .

 

Here is another thing many dont realise ; a whole range of karate ( and aikido) techniques dont seem to make much sense , until one realises that the practitioner would have been wearing a sword .  Or during a skuffle, you might be trying to stop him drawing a sword , or he might be trying to control you from drwaing your sword , or control you after you have drawn your sword '

 

Shio nage is a good example

 

 

 

 

some people, even experienced , forget this .  We have a kata  that gives bunkais (applications) for empty hand techniques against a staff attack  - very effective .   We also have staff kata with bukai in it to disarm the opponent from their staff, while the other maintains theirs . When practising this and the other is disarmed , they stand their defenceless and take the 'hit' .  For some reason no one  ( well ....  one person  does  :)  ) quickly switches to the unarmed defence against the staff technique  when they are disarmed of their staff .

 

It seems to make sense that if you study a weapon, you need to know how to attack with it , how to defend against that weapon, how to disarm that weapon and what to do if disarmed of that weapon .

 

 

 

 

 

19 hours ago, dwai said:

 

 


 

As I understand it, that’s how FMA operates, or silat, or many kungfu styles. Having done some sparring against a friend who’s an FMA guy, against a knife (a wooden one), I know my approach towards how to deal with such a scenario changed dramatically as soon as the blade slashed my arms, etc. :) 

 

I had mate that did SAS training .  I asked what he did . He listed stuff  and also said  we learnt knife fighting and disarming  .... " If you pick up a knife I can even tell by the way you do it , if you are trained and capable in its use ."

Me ; " Really ? And then you can defend against that ? "

"Oh yeah ?"

" Okay, I got a rubber one , lets try it ."

 

I grabbed the knife and got into a silly  'stance' with it and held the knife ready for a stab . And he goes " yeah , I can tell by the way you are holding it and standing, you dont know what you are doing  ."

 

" Really ? "  ... I lumber in with an obvious telegraphed overhand downward stab ,  totally mentally projecting that I am going to stab him in the neck he moves into intercept it and  I kicked him in the balls .     He bent forward still flailing to sieze the knife but I had  stopped that movement and held the hand back , hit him with the other hand, got him off balance , grabbed his hair and pulled his head back as he was going down and drew the rubbery across his throat , THEN did the overhand stab into his chest from behind him, several times as he continued down .

 

It really shocked him . 'Dont tfeel too bad ' I told him .  "All the extra time I spent doing stuff like this , you had to spend  drilling,  map reading , orienteering , learning how to use a gun, abseiling ,  emergence first aid, parachuting , camouflaging,    ..., etc  etc  ....

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19 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

No, I don't do video editing or anything of that nature. 

 

 

You can learn a lot by watching. You can learn even more by doing. Why not do both?

 

I consider myself open minded. If kalaripayattu is effective I'd be more than happy to learn. 

 

 

No. I've seen numerous videos showing just how ineffective it is. I have yet to see videos demonstrating it's effectiveness. I've asked many times and I have yet to receive any. Please spare me the "kalaripayattu is too dangerous for the cage and for the streets" argument. Or maybe it's such a secretive style that only a few can know it or truly become masters.

 

You haven't actually said if you are a practitioner or not and what, if you are,  it is that  you practice . ... and for how long .

 

Care to elaborate ? 

 

Or is all this just you  'supposin' '  ?

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2 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Where is everyone living that they need a high level of skill in unarmed fighting? Is there a weapons free island or zone like in all the 1980's martial arts movies? Or is this for secret underground bloodsport tournaments? 

 

Well, here it is peaceful , yet occasionally there is a home invasion , sometimes with meth fueled guys waving machetes  around .  One guy last year got hit in the neck with an axe  by the woman behind him while waiting at a   cash register cue in a 7/  11 .

of course its comparatively rare   ,but you never know , one guy locally  got so out of it  he sits on his verandah smoking meth pipe and randomly firing his glock off into the forest and insanely  laughing . he presently turned up off chops ( with machete ) to demand the money back from the  guy ( with his family home at the time ! ) who bought his house off him .  he recently got busted ; illegal cropping , meth factory , meth and speed packed for export , huge range of guns, 80 stolen cars ! Just over the next ridge and we didnt know about it .

 

It may not invade my personal space , chances are I will live my life never being confronted by it . But if I am , be damned if I am gonna stand there like a scared bunny in the headlights  not having a clue about what I should do !

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So your plan is to used unarmed fighting skills in a home invasion, or against a meth head with a glock? You may wish to rethink that. 

 

It seems to me the people most likely to need MA skills against an unarmed attacker are not the people I generally see at MA classes-- namely women. 

 

20 minutes ago, Nungali said:

It may not invade my personal space , chances are I will live my life never being confronted by it . But if I am , be damned if I am gonna stand there like a scared bunny in the headlights  not having a clue about what I should do !

 

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1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

So your plan is to used unarmed fighting skills in a home invasion, or against a meth head with a glock? You may wish to rethink that. 

 

No . YOU may wish to quote what I said instead of becoming , yet another, paraphraser  .

 

When people stop  trying  to  playing dishonest  games and communicate clearly and honestly with me   .... I am not   that bad a person .

 

I clearly stated I have weapons training. And clearly stated that I think one must be able to go against a weapon with a weapon, without a weapon, how to disarm a weapon  with a weapon ( the staff exercise I mentioned ), without a weapon and what to do if you are disarmed from your weapon .

 

Its rather phenomenal that people must be able to read , yet choose to ignore  what was written  and  then go and  make up their own interpretation / paraphrasing and try to challenge the other person on what they themselves actually wrote !

 

Anyway ,    I got weapons  all around the place , everything from 3  tomahawks stuck in the chopping block ( yeah, I can throw them accurately too ) , to , anything at hand actually .   Thats one type  of  'kobudo '   - dont attack a farmer !

 

Even if you are a fisherman walking home with your oar ;

 

 

I also have a few jo lying around , near the door, inside , on the verandah .  Jo seems the better weapon for indoor defence , its short and can be used in a variety of ways, its not inherently deadly, but can be .

 

One thing I can tell you though .... if someone does turn up waving a  glock around I am certainly NOT going to go    ' gun-fu' on them , or as our friend here prefers  to call it  ' gun- jitsu ' ... and no way would I use a technique like that against a REAL knife attack either  , as our friend suggested earlier .

 

We do practice it in training ; one person madly attacks with a machete , the other defends with a jo .   I examine news and other footage of attacks and we examine them and try remedies .  Eg. in looking at that mad woman attacking that guy with the axe in the 7 / 11  his mistake was to take his eyes of her ; he sees her , looks surprised at the axe , says something  ( maybe like ' Oh that looks nasty-  or 'You look dangerous '  - thats been said to me after I bought a brush hook at the markets and was walking around with it  ).

 

the woman shrugs and grins  ( like I did )  and the guy feels its safe and totally turns his back on her , not even stepping away a bit or keeping one eye on her  ... as soon as he   does that ... wham !  Full swing from behind into the side of his neck !

 

besides , its not all about  that . I worked as an orderly for around 10 years in a public hospital , guess who they called upon when there was a giant muscly  drugged out drunk or crazy person being aggressive  in the accident and emergency ward , ICU or psyche ward  ?  Skills learnt in MA are applicable there , if even on the psychological level .

 

 

 

Quote

 

It seems to me the people most likely to need MA  ( self defence ) skills against an unarmed attacker are not the people I generally see at MA classes-- namely women. 

 

 

 

I agree except with a change of wording I showed above , again this is part of the point I a m making; those women should NOT go to MA classes to learn self defence ideally they should go to a  self defence class , or even a women's self defence class .

 

I 'tested' a woman that did martial arts for self defence  - it was pathetic , I easily got control of her , against all her  'arts' .  Later I was in a real self defence class , I was invited to seize , not a woman  but  a little girl !  I grabbed he from behind and she did the usual , so I countered, sunk weight and really got hold of her , one arm around her throat , you could she she started to panic, but then immediately , stomped my toe pressure point with her heel , reached up to gouge my eyes , I leaned back to avoid that  and she switched to a solid blow in my  gonlzales' , stomping the other toe so I couldnt shift my hips aside .  That made me hunch forward and the pain distracted me  and enabled her to throw me , being shirt she had the advantage , now, of a lower centre , flipped me over, kept control of her now applied wrist lock, a knee in the side of the head  and a painful  holding down wrist lock . I tapped out .  A girl !  now THAT is self defence . 

 

I got up dishevelled , the instructor smiled at me  and then turned to the girl ; " Good ! "

 

So peeps , if you have kids and want them to learn how to defend themselves , enrol them in proper self defence class . if you want them to learn martial arts , enrol them in a martial arts  class  .  If you want them to learn both , ie  a real martial art with real self defence and fighting capability , NOT in a ring and with 'rules' ....

 

My paypal account is  ......

 

 

:D 

Edited by Nungali
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Anyways ....

 

back to our topic , Indian martial arts .

 

I made posts about this before , but I find them fascinating ;

 

 

 

 

304713434_2dc3debabb_b-5c5cf35ac9e77c000

 

Thats a Sikh  altar .

 

And the Sikh symbol ;

 

1200px-Khanda.svg.png

 

two knives , a sword and a chakram .

 

and , of course,  this guy ;

 

try from 2:38

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Anyways ....

 

back to our topic , Indian martial arts .

 

I made posts about this before , but I find them fascinating ;

 

 

 

 

304713434_2dc3debabb_b-5c5cf35ac9e77c000

 

Thats a Sikh  altar .

 

And the Sikh symbol ;

 

1200px-Khanda.svg.png

 

two knives , a sword and a chakram .

 

and , of course,  this guy ;

 

try from 2:38

 

 

Yes he’s very good. I didn’t want to post his videos because he’s not doing “Kalaripayattu”. 
 

 

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No . But it is Indian Martial Art .

 

I wonder how many there are ? 

 

 

 

millionssweets.jpg?w=640

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9 hours ago, Nungali said:

No . But it is Indian Martial Art .

 

I wonder how many there are ? 

 

 

 

millionssweets.jpg?w=640

This is a friend of mine who has a very wide repertoire wrt. Indian Martial Arts along with Silat, some kungfu styles and Taijiquan as well.I'll try to see if I can interview him and share the video.

 

Here's another indian martial art called Huyen Langlon (aka Thang-ta) from the North-eastern region of India -

 

 

 

A reason why the Indian Martial Arts are often found in choreographed dance-like form is based on two things --

 

1. The original martial art was codified in an indian classical scripture called Natya shastra. It is the basis Indian performance arts -- famous one being Bharata Natyam (the most ancient Indian classical dance form). 

2. The British period, especially after the First war of Independence in 1857 (which the Brits call "Sepoy Mutiny"), all martial arts, weapons etc were banned and mass persecution of Martial artists (ranging from jailing to executions) was carried out by the British Army (and its native agents).  As a result, these arts were hidden, often codified in dance-forms etc. 

 

In terms of list, there are many others -- Adimurai, Silambam, Vajramushti, etc. 

Edited by dwai
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Here's a video of my friend showing how Silat deals with knife-fighting 

 

 

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That first evasion / deflection is a good demo of how little force is needed against  a thrust . Its mostly getting off line with a 'cover' (in this case ) slap to stop the thrust tracking you as you move.

 

Now consider the above video on karate basics , with those huge heaving smashing 'blocks' that they put their whole body into , to deal with a thrust .     And, where it is shown in the vid ,  note how the other hand goes forward first before the 'block'  is done ,  that is the  'slap' / deflection /  cover part  ( and they dont seem to know about getting off line) .

 

So, your mate  'gets it '  .

 

' Dont touch me philosophy '    :)     -    like my 'personal sphere '  concept . 

 

Now , its Saturday , dawn , and I am off to training     (   and thinking what 'surprise' I can spring on them  )  .

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.... Oh ,  Mr O  never came back to tell us what   martial art he practices and where he got all his experience and knowledge from .

 

:unsure:

Edited by Nungali
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39 minutes ago, Nungali said:

That first evasion / deflection is a good demo of how little force is needed against  a thrust . Its mostly getting off line with a 'cover' (in this case ) slap to stop the thrust tracking you as you move.

 

Now consider the above video on karate basics , with those huge heaving smashing 'blocks' that they put their whole body into , to deal with a thrust .     And, where it is shown in the vid ,  note how the other hand goes forward first before the 'block'  is done ,  that is the  'slap' / deflection /  cover part  ( and they dont seem to know about getting off line) .

This is actually common sense. I first came across it reading Bruce Lee's Tao of Jeet Kune Do. Aikidoka do it too....the concept of tenkan and irimi can be applied very effectively, not just in aikido but in life as well. My biggest takeaway from Aikido days -- "When pushed, turn. When pulled, enter". 

39 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

So, your mate  'gets it '  .

 

' Dont touch me philosophy '    :)     -    like my 'personal sphere '  concept . 

 

Now , its Saturday , dawn , and I am off to training     (   and thinking what 'surprise' I can spring on them  )  .

Enjoy training :)

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On 1/28/2021 at 3:59 PM, forestofemptiness said:

 

Where is everyone living that they need a high level of skill in unarmed fighting?

 

They don't! But they also don't need "martial" arts that instills a false sense of confidence.

 

Martial arts may not be for everyone but getting a little bit of exercise and having fun with some light, friendly sparring while not trying to hurt one another could be a way of helping people be healthy. 

 

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Is there a weapons free island or zone like in all the 1980's martial arts movies?

 

Not that I know of. But in how many parts of the "civilized" world can one carry sharp objects or a firearm? Even in those places where you may be able to you can't always rely on having them. 

 

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Or is this for secret underground bloodsport tournaments? 

 

I don't encourage this kind of primitive, unintelligent behavior. 

 

On 1/28/2021 at 6:17 PM, Nungali said:

 

A nd the same reasons you 'know' everything   :)

 

Are you paraphrasing? Point out exactly when I said I "know" everything. My powerful memory and values disagree with you. 

 

"in the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few."

 

- Shunryu Suzuki

 

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Its pretty simple to comprehend and any one else here could comprehend it ;   a better fighter will be more experienced in fighting and training, building up strength, endurance, innovation and tactics . They have much more chance of winning than one that dooesnt .

 

You're making up non existent arguments, projecting things that have no basis in reality (hint: they only exist in your own head) and going off on these long winded "explanations" about.... nothing really. 

 

I never needed you explaining the difference between what truly makes a fighter and what doesn't. You don't have a monopoly in expertise on such a simple concept. 

 

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Regardless of 'style' , such a person wh did that would make a good Kalaripayattu and one that does not would not amke a very good Kalaripayattu.

 

This is very cliche and erroneous. Very dangerous thinking because all styles are NOT created equal. People who train in ineffective styles quickly get a reality check when revealed to martial arts that actually work. 

 

Wasn't it Bruce Lee who said that a person with 6 months of boxing and/or wrestling can defeat a martial artist with decades of experience? The same Bruce Lee who has abandoned most of Wing Chun but only kept a few key concepts that he could apply. If Wing Chun worked to create actual fighters he would of never had to look at boxing or wrestling. Bruce Lee himself wasn't exactly a fighter but he had a keen understanding of taking what is useful and discarding the rest.

 

Kalaripayattu offers much less than Wing Chun to create fighters. I encourage you to walk into a good kick boxing gym and show Kalaripayattu to experienced fighters. When they tell you it's trash (and the honest ones will) tell these fighters exactly what you're telling me. Give them a lecture about how they don't understand fighting and that they think they know everything. How could they possibly talk down on something that they never trained in? 

 

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I am starting to  agree with others observations here that you are trolling .

 

If trying to put flowery "martial" arts on equal footing with martial arts that are truly effective in real time combat isn't trolling then I don't know what is.

 

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Well, its your money, you can waste it how you want I suppose . However , your lack of sensible betting doent prove anything !

 

If you're THAT confident then back up your statements with something to support it. I already know you're not the type. You're just a miserable, formless entity floating in virtual space with a big mouth and a whole lot of useless, illogical things to say.

 

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This was your response to my " Thats no proof of anything . Anyone can just type out words like that its merely  'proof' by personal assertion  ."

 

so to counter that , you personally assert that there is evidence   :D  :D  :D 

 

Back to what I said earlier. Walk into a kick boxing gym and show them kalaripayattu. Better yet... bring in "fighters" of that art and politely ask them to spar. You'll get a first hand experience of my evidence.

 

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More of your 'facts' eh ?    More generalised facts that have no room for the skills of the individuals  or   other conditions

 

You mean the same facts encouraging taking what works and leaving out what's useless. There's no room for outdated methods that might have worked back in a time where people had a flat earth cosmology or a geocentric model of the universe. There's a reason why certain things generally fall out of favor.

 

There's no room for learning complicated arts that take decades to learn and the techniques are ultimately useless. Also, the more complicated something is the more likely one is to make a mistake. I didn't create these generalizations. The same "martial arts" that you're such a proponent of created it. 

 

"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times"

 

- Bruce Lee

 

True refinement of skills leaves plenty of room for many things.  

 

Quote

 

 

You know so little and generalise so much , one has to assume you  are fairly young  and inexperienced

 

You're trying so hard to fit me into your little box and it's not exactly a right fit.

 

 

 

 

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Errrmmm , of course  you will respond like this 

 

'But that isnt a 'proper' horse stance ! '    :D     The first part of video explains all that . I am wondering if you know the value of using hirse stance within a set of dynamic movements , in real application , or you use it like those guys in the above karate 'demo' would .

 

here is your argument ;  You never see a guy in a deep perfectly aligned horse stance , as practised statically and by oneself,  during an MMA match that is dynamic moving and where anything can happen or change or shift around . It is suggested that is because  MMA is dynamic and is a fight between two people and the stance is adapted ,then when this is  shown  you complain that  its not a horse stance that is  deep, perfectly aligned horse stance, as practised statically and by oneself .

 

WOW  !

 

The horse stance is probably great for training strength and flexibility at best and just as an isometric training at worse. During certain situations it's just natural to get in it even without any training in karate. I see you're the one making faulty generalizations. 

 

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how does returning your hand to your hip bring the opponent off balance  IF you have not grabbed anything with it  ? ! 

 

You're visualizing it. Similar to how one visualizes an opponent in shadow boxing except you're simulating a grabbing motion.

 

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What those karate styles that are changing  are doing is going back and adopting some of the old original teachings and styles . How many of them have 'gone back to Okinawa'  to develop their own skill or styles ?

 

Many have also went to China in more recent times to bring back whatever few functional techniques they could find. 

 

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Thing is karate DID devolve into a monolithic style and that was lead by JKA (Japan karate federation ).   You dont seem to realise that my criticisms  are due to me involved  IN karate , personally for decades . I am not some Indian MA guy or a Kung fuer  trying to discredit a different art .

 

It's the furthest thing from a monolithic style. There's so many different styles out there. Hundreds, possibly even thousands of them. That could be a good thing but it could also be a bad thing. It would be better to have fewer but highly functional and adaptable styles.

 

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I claimed a more experienced and trained  person was more likely to win over one not expereinced or trained  ,  and that applies to any style or tradition .

 

I've been saying the same thing this entire time.

 

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Pffft !  I can back up everyone of them and show others opinion and research that does likewise .

 

I bet I can prove them wrong and out of existence.

 

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Stop being silly !  Are you claiming that Americans never invaded Okinawa ? That they never occupied Okinawa ?   That Okinawans never fought against them in their homeland ? That American serviceman stationed in Okinawa after the invasion never studied MA from the locals ?   Thats what I am talking about and you know it !  By trying to counter my facts and claiming I am lying  and " intellectually dishonest and historically inaccurate to call your claims "facts". in this regard   by citing that

 

" Americans were not at war directly with the Okinawans. " is stupid and ridiculous and clearly the work of a troll .

 

My position still holds true. The Americans were NOT directly at war with the Okinawans. The purpose of the invasion was to reach the Japanese mainland and the Okinawans were made afraid of the Americans by the Imperial Japanese military feeding them propaganda about how the Americans were going to torture them. The Okinawans were afraid and were used as cannon fodder by the imperial military. 

 

You worded things in a way that suggested it was a war between the US and Okinawa. We both know that isn't true. 

 

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Its not history ... its an 'interesting coincidence'  that before savate demo in japan karate did not have those kicks and after it , all of a sudden they did have them . Okinawans never kicked like that and THEY got a huge portion of their stuff from China .

 

It's a rather bizarre and inaccurate claim to say that mawashi geri was "stolen" from the French. Care to point out your historical "coincidences" to see how it easily falls apart when its challenged? 

 

Mawashi Geri was imported from Japan back into Okinawa because it's so effective. I could be wrong on this part but what the Okinawans got from the Chinese appears to be a close quarter fighting style of karate with low kicks.

 

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Possibly that is wherr Savate got it from.

 

After traveling to all these places (China, Korea, Thailand) where kicking is part of the martial cultures they coincidentally bring kicking back to France. The Savateurs are not giving any credit back to these other different places but for some reason no one is quick to point fingers and accuse them of plagiarizing techniques that don't belong to them. Better to look to pseudo historians on obscure forums and YouTube videos based on inaccurate information and invent things to spark controversy.

 

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but that doesnt mean that it cold not have gone through savate to Japanese karate .

 

This is called bad inferencing. 

 

The Japanese invaded korea and occupied it in the early 1900's. Don't you think they could've gained exposure to high kicking styles there? To my knowledge Kung Fu doesn't have round house kicks in their manuals either but they'll tell you they've always been kicking high. Go tell the shaolin kung fu guys they stole their round house kicks or other high kicks from savate. 

 

Yoshitaka Funakoshi (he's not even a Japanese) is the guy being accused of being so impressed by savate and a French influenced Japanese military that he "stole" the training methodology which included the kicks found in savate.  So you could say the Okinawans stole from Savate and to be brutally honest this story is completely asinine. 

 

There were many Japanese karateka traveling to China to learn techniques between 1920 to around the time Funakoshi passed away so saying that Japanese karate got it's kicks from savate is as logical as being offered beach front property on the moon. I reject the claims because it belongs in the garbage. 

 

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As I just said , a huge element of  'Chuan fa ' passed into Okinawan MA   and they didnt have kicks like that .  So much so that karate meant 'Chinese hand ' / boxing .  Japan would refuse to recognise anything they stole and adapted after WWII as anything but Japanese .

 

Isn't this a form of generalizing? Tadashi Nakamura and many other accomplished Japanese karate practitioners acknowledge the shaolin roots of karate. Many even buy into myths about Bodhidharma bringing in and teaching kung fu to the shaolin monks. I lost count of the number of Japanese karate sensei's who would tell you these stories. 

 

Mas Oyama was a Korean man and he believed in authentic Japanese Budo. Would he fall under your generalizations too?

 

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They changed the meaning of karate and adapted other of their MA into it , like movement and footwork and body posture   for the use of certain weapons  and they certainly where not going to admit any Chinese or  French influence .

 

According to your sources the Japanese didn't understand the concept of sparring until the French arrived LOL. Only problem with this argument is that the Japanese sword fighting arts have been using wooden swords to spar with long before the French ever stepped foot in Japan. Shotokan is influenced from Japanese sword fighting arts. In Taekkyeon sparring has always existed and its far more likely that high kicks in karate partially came from there. 

 

There was/is no French influence in karate. Those kicks already existed in asia.

Edited by Oneironaut

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I already see some people attempting to conceal the Asian origins of the kicks in savate or certain people trying to say that karate is filipino or others saying that karate stole one of it's old stances from bare knuckle boxing. The internet is quite the never ending black hole.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Nungali said:

.... Oh ,  Mr O  never came back to tell us what   martial art he practices and where he got all his experience and knowledge from .

 

:unsure:

 

I studied taekwondo as a kid. One of my instructors was a competitor in taekwondo and was also a 3rd degree black belt in shotokan karate.

I began boxing over a decade ago but I don't compete. I've also done judo in the past. Through judo I also had a decent amount of experience in Brazilian jujutsu. You could say my training in shotokan and Brazilian jujutsu were more "informal" but I did gain some knowledge and there's considerable overlap with the arts I was mainly practicing.

 

I'm a student of the game. I will never call myself an expert, a master or claim to know it all. Sometimes things just need to be called out.

 

What have you practiced other than stick tapping? 

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On 1/17/2021 at 1:18 PM, dwai said:

 

 

Pehlwani looks very interesting. 

 

 

Edited by Oneironaut
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Not an Indian martial art, but this is a form of Southern Mantis that was brought to India. Southern Mantis forms can be boring to watch, but I always thought it was cool. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, dwai said:

This is actually common sense. I first came across it reading Bruce Lee's Tao of Jeet Kune Do. Aikidoka do it too....the concept of tenkan and irimi can be applied very effectively, not just in aikido but in life as well. My biggest takeaway from Aikido days -- "When pushed, turn. When pulled, enter". 

...

 

Hey !   My last GF had a sign like that over her bed .

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5 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

They don't! But they also don't need "martial" arts that instills a false sense of confidence.

 

Martial arts may not be for everyone but getting a little bit of exercise and having fun with some light, friendly sparring while not trying to hurt one another could be a way of helping people be healthy. 

 

 

Not that I know of. But in how many parts of the "civilized" world can one carry sharp objects or a firearm? Even in those places where you may be able to you can't always rely on having them. 

 

 

I don't encourage this kind of primitive, unintelligent behavior. 

 

You mean like a 'fight club' ?  Good !  As it just gets worse and worse ;

 

 

 

....  the horror  .... the horror  ....

 

hqdefault.jpg

 

 

Quote

 

 

Are you paraphrasing? Point out exactly when I said I "know" everything. My powerful memory and values disagree with you. 

 

"in the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few."

 

- Shunryu Suzuki

 

 

You're making up non existent arguments, projecting things that have no basis in reality (hint: they only exist in your own head) and going off on these long winded "explanations" about.... nothing really.  [/QUOTE]

 

It probably  seems that way to you .  I can tell because when I read some of your responses below , it seems you haven't a clue what I mean .

 

Quote

 

I never needed you explaining the difference between what truly makes a fighter and what doesn't. You don't have a monopoly in expertise on such a simple concept. 

 

Here is an example ,   what you are responding to is a response to what you said .   You might not 'need it' .   Just like I might not NEED you to respond to what I say , but you do .

 

'Such is life '  .

 

Quote

 

This is very cliche and erroneous. Very dangerous thinking because all styles are NOT created equal. People who train in ineffective styles quickly get a reality check when revealed to martial arts that actually work. 

 

 

Ummm , no . You misread again , as I said above .    What you are saying here is a response to my  ; " Regardless of 'style' , such a person who had   (ie. my previous ; '   more experienced in fighting and training, building up strength, endurance, innovation and tactics )  would make a good Kalaripayattu and one that does not would not make a very good Kalaripayattu.

 

So  if you read what I wrote (and following previous comments that this response was written in relation to ie Q ; ' What makes good Kalaripayattu   ) I was writing ; '  a person ( a  Kalaripayattu ) who had    more experienced in fighting and training, building up strength, endurance, innovation and tactics   would make a good Kalaripayattu and one that does not would not make a very good Kalaripayattu. ' And I believe that applies to any style (as well as  Kalaripayattu .

 

But if you think this is erroneous , then it conflicts with what you are saying below  about fighting experience and training . And it might help to understand why YOU are not being understood when you declare this is what you have been saying all along .

 

Quote

 

Wasn't it Bruce Lee who said that a person with 6 months of boxing and/or wrestling can defeat a martial artist with decades of experience? The same Bruce Lee who has abandoned most of Wing Chun but only kept a few key concepts that he could apply. If Wing Chun worked to create actual fighters he would of never had to look at boxing or wrestling. Bruce Lee himself wasn't exactly a fighter but he had a keen understanding of taking what is useful and discarding the rest.

 

Probably , and I agree with him .

 

Quote

 

Kalaripayattu offers much less than Wing Chun to create fighters. I encourage you to walk into a good kick boxing gym and show Kalaripayattu to experienced fighters. When they tell you it's trash (and the honest ones will) tell these fighters exactly what you're telling me. Give them a lecture about how they don't understand fighting and that they think they know everything. How could they possibly talk down on something that they never trained in? 

 

But ... but .... I dont even know any Kalaripayattu  .  !   :huh:

 

Nice try though ; trying to get me to walk into a  kick boxing gym , and challenge them all with an art I know nothing about  :D  

 

 

...  thanks for the 'encouragement '  .

 

Quote

 

 

If trying to put flowery "martial" arts on equal footing with martial arts that are truly effective in real time combat isn't trolling then I don't know what is.

 

It still seems like you think I am defending Kalaripayattu .   If anything I was trying to separate  karate systems .

 

And as a reminder , no I would not call Kalaripayattu karate .  ...   I would call it Kalaripayattu .

 

Quote

 

 

If you're THAT confident then back up your statements with something to support it. I already know you're not the type. You're just a miserable, formless entity floating in virtual space with a big mouth and a whole lot of useless, illogical things to say.

 

And you , my good  Sir  are definitely  a

 

Spoiler

 

 

  poo - poo

 

waving-clapping-pointing-722x406.jpg?wid

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

Back to what I said earlier. Walk into a kick boxing gym and show them kalaripayattu. Better yet... bring in "fighters" of that art and politely ask them to spar. You'll get a first hand experience of my evidence.

 

:D   You really want these guys to beat me don't  you  ? 

 

 

Quote

 

 

You mean the same facts encouraging taking what works and leaving out what's useless. There's no room for outdated methods that might have worked back in a time where people had a flat earth cosmology or a geocentric model of the universe. There's a reason why certain things generally fall out of favor.

 

Agreed !  But  ...    Taking Ueshiba's view,  and  in my experience,   one can do effective martial arts with a haracentric view !  That's gotta be even more extreme than a mere geocentric one !  That is ' when someone seizes my wrist , I do not circle around them , I stand still and rotate the whole Universe around my  hara .'

 

Its a neat trick ... trickier to maintain when 'rolling out '

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

There's no room for learning complicated arts that take decades to learn and the techniques are ultimately useless. Also, the more complicated something is the more likely one is to make a mistake. I didn't create these generalizations. The same "martial arts" that you're such a proponent of created it. 

 

Yeah . I was agreeing until the last sentence  .... oh right , you think i am a proponent of  the martial arts you dont like .

 

Quote

 

"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times"

 

- Bruce Lee

 

True refinement of skills leaves plenty of room for many things.  

 

Yes .  I can agree with that .

 

 

Quote

 

 

You're trying so hard to fit me into your little box and it's not exactly a right fit.

 

Close,  that isn't actually what I was 'trying to do '  .... although the 'box' part is right .

 

Its more;  I see YOU in the box already ... and me   

 

 

 

BackLoneGalapagoshawk-max-1mb.gif

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

yeah, thats good .  Nothing to do about what  I was complaining about though .

 

 

Quote

 

 

The horse stance is probably great for training strength and flexibility at best and just as an isometric training at worse. During certain situations it's just natural to get in it even without any training in karate. I see you're the one making faulty generalizations.

 

What ! You said you dont see horse stance it in MMA . I posted a vid on how you do see it .  With an explanation about peoples confusion about it as a prelude in the vid .

 

Now you respond to that by citing   basically the same as  what they guy in the vid and  I, myself previously said .

 

 

Quote

 

 

You're visualizing it. Similar to how one visualizes an opponent in shadow boxing except you're simulating a grabbing motion.

 

You are doing it again !

 

I posted a vid of TWO GUYS drilling with each other .  When you practice alone you are visualising it !

 

Are you suggesting that the guys in the vid are part visualising and part doing it ? 

 

What , guy 1  (actually ) punches , guy 2   (actually ) does hikite  but (imagines ) he has seized the  other hand and drawn him in and off balance , while guy 1 is still punching so he (actually ) , blocks that  .... and then counters .

 

besides this explains NOTHING I was referring to , about leaving you guard DOWN on that side   !

 

DUDE , are claiming to have done boxing ? !  Did you ever hear a voice off in your corner  yelling " Hands  up ! Hands UP ! "  ?

 

or do you have trouble responding to comments that need to be understood in relation to what THEY are responding to ?

 

 

 

Quote

 

Many have also went to China in more recent times to bring back whatever few functional techniques they could find. 

 

 

It's the furthest thing from a monolithic style. There's so many different styles out there. Hundreds, possibly even thousands of them. That could be a good thing but it could also be a bad thing. It would be better to have fewer but highly functional and adaptable styles.

 

Oh , sorry I must be confused again . Could have sworn it was YOU that said things about a monolithic style ?

 

I was responding to THAT and referring to JKA / Shotokan monopoly  as the 'monolithic' style .

 

Quote

 

 

I've been saying the same thing this entire time.

 

I was saying same thing too , in some cases .   But you seemed to have interpreted  that in your own ways .

 

Quote

 

 

I bet I can prove them wrong and out of existence.

 

Out of existence like a ;   "  a miserable, formless entity floating in virtual space with a big mouth and a whole lot of useless, illogical things to say."  ?

 

 

Quote

 

 

My position still holds true. The Americans were NOT directly at war with the Okinawans. The purpose of the invasion was to reach the Japanese mainland and the Okinawans were made afraid of the Americans by the Imperial Japanese military feeding them propaganda about how the Americans were going to torture them. The Okinawans were afraid and were used as cannon fodder by the imperial military. 

 

Doing it again !  :)

 

This part of  our argument  was never about if America was directly at war or not it was about Okinawans feeling pissed at Americans for bombing and invading them .

 

Now I REALLY think you cant follow a thread .  Or even understand what people are REALLY saying .

 

I'd venture to say that you have  such 'efficient ' blinkers on that  you cant help seeing things as the way YOU want them to be .

 

- probably fuelled by what you are holding onto from the past , which you didnt address back then , as you admitted in your first post her , when you decided to  challenge me  .  :)

 

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You worded things in a way that suggested it was a war between the US and Okinawa. We both know that isn't true. 

 

Dont be silly .

 

and .. you are paraphrasing again .  I bet you would get  a surprise to go back and read what I DID say about this .

 

I said invaded Okinawa  .... not a 'war between' .  See how you change things ?

Quote

 

 

It's a rather bizarre and inaccurate claim to say that mawashi geri was "stolen" from the French. Care to point out your historical "coincidences" to see how it easily falls apart when its challenged? 

 

Nah .  Its probably wrong , you bring up some good points here .

 

Quote

 

Mawashi Geri was imported from Japan back into Okinawa because it's so effective. I could be wrong on this part but what the Okinawans got from the Chinese appears to be a close quarter fighting style of karate with low kicks.

 

Well, its more than that .   But as far as Mawashi Geri  type  low kicks , yes .  But  not  those , enter with the groin open and roundhouse to the head kicks . For a variety of reasons .   Even a double flying " Mawashi Geri ' type kick ... but low .  Teacher * once made a bit of a mistake . He thought a visitor was challenging him to a fight , when the guy only wanted to spar . Mr. N. leapt at him aiming (feinting )  , one of these kicks at the other's  left knee ,  the guy stepped back and then the other kick came in to the side of his other knee . Bad damage - hospital .

 

He also taught a kick that features in his form of Hakatsuru (Okinawan crane form )  its like a 'backhand' Mawashi Geri  ( again not delivered with the knee above the hip )  but comes around from the other direction , i.e.  if doing it with the right leg , the right foot would come around and strike to your right . Sneaky . Its also a way of doing a  ' whip kick' .  Matsamuru killed two guys by a double whip kick (probably the first to the knee, the second to the liver ) , point of contact is with the big toe .  - dont laugh ,  I seen some Okinawans put the point of their big toe through a  board .  I have only managed to crack two bricks from constantly practising on a brick wall  (barefoot ) , but anyway , most dont go barefoot  nowadays  ..... they where these;  the  'liver massager '

 

MEN_DRESS_SHOES_BROWN__96674.1503396730.

 

 

 

 So,  yes,  Okinawans do have  all sorts of kicks, but nearly all are low .   I can tell you where some came from (allegedly )

The  strange 'hook stance' kick in Chinto kata  came from a 'pirate' named Chinto .  From studying the account of his past life and the ensuing fight with Matsamura in a cave ( one of the few  Matsamura could not win ) ,  its purpose and best use can be discerned  - and that's rather surprising  ... but me being full of shit and all that , you probably aren't interested .

 

  The ones in Kusanku kata came from a Chinese  Qing Dynasty  ambassador  to Okinawa named Kwang Shang Fu

 

 

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After traveling to all these places (China, Korea, Thailand) where kicking is part of the martial cultures they coincidentally bring kicking back to France. The Savateurs are not giving any credit back to these other different places but for some reason no one is quick to point fingers and accuse them of plagiarizing techniques that don't belong to them. Better to look to pseudo historians on obscure forums and YouTube videos based on inaccurate information and invent things to spark controversy.

 

Yeah . you are probably right about this . Seems to make sense .

 

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This is called bad inferencing. 

 

The Japanese invaded korea and occupied it in the early 1900's. Don't you think they could've gained exposure to high kicking styles there?

 

Certainly possible .

 

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To my knowledge Kung Fu doesn't have round house kicks in their manuals either but they'll tell you they've always been kicking high. Go tell the shaolin kung fu guys they stole their round house kicks or other high kicks from savate. 

 

Now you want  them to beat me up    :D 

 

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Yoshitaka Funakoshi (he's not even a Japanese) is the guy being accused of being so impressed by savate and a French influenced Japanese military that he "stole" the training methodology which included the kicks found in savate.  So you could say the Okinawans stole from Savate and to be brutally honest this story is completely asinine. 

 

He was born in Okinawa but was viable to Japanese ways just as much as his father , whom other Okinawans did not have that high an opinion of . It was said he didnt know the real bunkai  of the kata he was teaching . 

 

 

maybe thats why Shotokan  had to change  Okinawan karate into JKA approved version , so it fitted the bunkai they made up  :D

 

Like that 'adaptation' they made to the first kata  moves 7 and 8 .... oh wait , they swapped the numbering around too  and made this first kata  the second kata .

 

Ohhh  ... the loss of interesting and effective bunkai that  one single change   made ! 

 

 

 

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There were many Japanese karateka traveling to China to learn techniques between 1920 to around the time Funakoshi passed away so saying that Japanese karate got it's kicks from savate is as logical as being offered beach front property on the moon. I reject the claims because it belongs in the garbage. 

 

Do you have any of those properties I could look at  ?    B)

 

 

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Isn't this a form of generalizing? 

 

Nah .  They did it with HEAPS of products !   You might be too young to remember  all that stuff flooding the market .

 

 

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Tadashi Nakamura and many other accomplished Japanese karate practitioners acknowledge the shaolin roots of karate. Many even buy into myths about Bodhidharma bringing in and teaching kung fu to the shaolin monks. I lost count of the number of Japanese karate sensei's who would tell you these stories. 

 

Good, they are breaking out of the stranglehold  and acknowledging China again.

 

 

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Mas Oyama was a Korean man and he believed in authentic Japanese Budo. Would he fall under your generalizations too?

 

No .  because Oyama's first teacher was Chinese ,  so he never started off doing a BS type of karate in Japan .  He did a bit of Shotokan and then went to Gojuryu - traditional Okinawan hard style .  Then he got real fighting experience against US Military Police  ( a bit of a 'street thug' ) . Then he did a hermits phase of insane toughness . With a quick trip to JKA land and kicked the shit out of them, then back up the mountain . .. and so on

 

he might have believed in authentic Japanese budo , but he certainly did not  much spend time with  the guys I am criticising , went back to Okinawan  style , did super hard training full time , and came back and kicked those same arses !  ( in the Karate Section of Japanese National Martial Arts Championships ) .

 

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According to your sources the Japanese didn't understand the concept of sparring until the French arrived LOL.

 

Nope . you just made that up .   They had many concepts of sparing . And to claim they didnt is worthy of a LOL

 

But you just made up your own claim that you are lolling at   ....    LOL .

 

  The claim was  about  the particular method  of fighting that got developed for sports karate , not  too suggest that no sparring was ever done in japan before the French Savate team got there or that  the  " Japanese didn't understand the concept of sparring until the French arrived . "  

 

- see what you do ?

.

Now before you go off on one of your misunderstanding again  ...  I am not supporting the '  Karate nerd' here , I am just clarifying that which you are changing  -   in your  attempt to make your argument look better .   Or its that misreading thing again .

 

 

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Only problem with this argument is that the Japanese sword fighting arts have been using wooden swords to spar with long before the French ever stepped foot in Japan. Shotokan is influenced from Japanese sword fighting arts. In Taekkyeon sparring has always existed and its far more likely that high kicks in karate partially came from there. 

 

 

Yeah , thats possible too .   bet the Japs would not admit it  though .

 

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There was/is no French influence in karate. Those kicks already existed in asia.

 

But but .....  

 

Spoiler

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Edited by Nungali

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3 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

I studied taekwondo as a kid. One of my instructors was a competitor in taekwondo and was also a 3rd degree black belt in shotokan karate.

I began boxing over a decade ago but I don't compete. I've also done judo in the past. Through judo I also had a decent amount of experience in Brazilian jujutsu. You could say my training in shotokan and Brazilian jujutsu were more "informal" but I did gain some knowledge and there's considerable overlap with the arts I was mainly practicing.

 

I'm a student of the game. I will never call myself an expert, a master or claim to know it all. Sometimes things just need to be called out.

 

Do you still practice and if so what ?    Because its a little unclear wther you just had a few lessons or stuck at these long enough to gain valid experience .

 

3 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

What have you practiced other than stick tapping? 

 

I have never done stick tapping .

 

Experience started  in the back yard as a kid , dad was a boxer .  I soon learnt how boxing was all over karate , well the karate I was doing back then .  One time he was getting me with such a flurry of head shots and i did a front kick just above his groin , he cried 'foul play ' and told me 'only girls kick '  .  :D    very old school guy .

 

So,  at school I started Shotokan  Karate , our first real (JKA approved ;) )  instructor was sent out from Shotokan HQ a German guy called Frank Nowak , the first non Japanese to get  Sandan grade  and be given a country to head .    About   4 years of that , by now I have left school and joined a different style ; Sikiran , a Filipino style  evolved from a more ancient form of Sikiran 'foot fighting ' , a crazy range of kicks .  Thats the fiirst time I was 'allowed' to touch a weapon, they did bo and nunchuks .  About 4 years again. Then I did some bad Aikido on the other side of OZ in Perth WA where I then moved .  And a bit of Silat , only abut 6 months . 

 

Then I came back over east and discovered Akikai , a much better form (and original ) Aikido . I trained for about 8 years with many really good teachers , for a while I was living in the city and busing around where ever it was on, 3 nights a week and Saturday mornings .    Then I moved away from the city to a rural location, no good schools, I tried one aikido school in a near by  small city but it was pretty bad .  So I started ding some teaching myself , at the local school as their 'weekly sport' , small groups , friends ,  once at a festival where about  60mpeople turned up to do one of my classes  - YIKES! .. but something very magical happened that blew them away . 

 

Then I discovered a quiet little group of a few was training in my town and doing weapons , so I joined .  When I looked into them I could not believe I had run into someone with the lineage *  they had in a small country town like that . It was only pointed out this morning over coffee after training  that I have been doing it ( I estimated 'over 10 years ' )  'More like 17 years .'  We do empty hand  Pinan 1 - 5 , Niharchin 1 - 3 , Passai 1 & 2 and 'Oshimi Passai ' , a 'staff taking kata  - ' Nobudhi no gata ',  Chinto,  Gojushiho, Kusanku and Hakatsuru.  Weapons ;  5 bo katas  including  the Shorin Ryu ( that is  Matsamura Seito Shorin ryu )  bo form  Chichen no kon .  2 eku (oar ) katas ,  various short jo and boken katas   . One longer jo AND boken  together kata  ( that I developed and teach ) ,  3 sai kata  and 3 gama (sickle ) kata from Hohan Sokken.  ... and a few other weapons occasionally ; stick, knife , I like doing double machete (I got a wooden pair made ), and can adapt these two hand forms to them .  Oh yes, and all the bunkai (applications ) that the moves in these kata represent ,    and various weapons against weapons .    Oh yeah , and Aikikai came  to town so I started doing that again as well , weapons ther are jo, boken and tanto .

 

* the linage , going backwards

 

Me   :)

 

My 'instructor '   ( I teach him a lot too and some of what he teaches comes from me )

 

His instructor  ' Ted' , recently sadly passed on  - you will see him mentioned as valid in the next reference I give .

 

His teacher , my 'teacher '   ( that is , he whose teaching I  study follow , as passed down  ) and my 'instructors teacher '  ;

 

Kosei Nishira

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosei_Nishihira

 

His teacher

Hohan Soken

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hohan_Sōken

 

try this , Dillman admits  ( to his own detriment ! )  what I have been saying here .

 

 

His teacher  Nabe Matsamura

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabe_Matsumura

 

and his teacher 'Bushi'  Matsamura  - personal body guard to the last 3 Okinawan Kings ... until  Japan oppressed  them .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsumura_Sōkon

 

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