charlesjorden

Jing Deficiency? Thoughts?

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Even psychologically oriented healers are getting more and more into the body these days because body-level healing works.  In fact, there´s a whole discipline dedicated to healing emotional difficulties through body awareness -- somatic psychology.  Witness the wild popularity of Bessel Van Der Kolk´s tome The Body Keeps The Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma.  

 

There are lots of people who wouldn´t dream of telling you about their childhood abuse but don´t mind mentioning that their stomachs hurt.  For this reason, the stomach provides a way in.  Insisting on staying on a psychological level -- talking about feelings -- can be subtely disrespectful and, in any case, doesn´t work.  Just bringing someone´s awareness to their body and helping them stay there is often profoundly healing.  I´ll venture that often enough that´s all that´s really needed.  

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As an aside - I’ve noticed this new trend online - they call it ‘dopamine detox’ or ‘dopamine fasting’... in many ways this is exactly what we want to do if we have jing issues.

 

Basically stopping all addictive behaviour - including the subtle ones (like reaching for your phone when you’re bored)

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1 minute ago, freeform said:

 

Basically stopping all addictive behaviour - including the subtle ones (like reaching for your phone when you’re bored)

Noooooooooooo

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2 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Noooooooooooo

I get you, man.  I wanna do this for the next three months to make something happen in the spring.  Putting the phone down is already way harder than cutting down on intoxicants/sexual stimulation etc.

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On 12/27/2020 at 2:51 AM, freeform said:


There’s no guarantee with anything I’m afraid. 
 

But I can tell you that I’ve seen people in worse situations than yours turn their life around.
 

The key to any change is consistency over a long period of time. In fact you’ll hear ‘gong’ a lot in all these Chinese arts... it means something like ‘masterful skill developed over a long period of dedicated training.’

 

You have a choice between two modes of suffering. 
 

You either suffer with regret and your present condition...

 

Or you suffer the difficulty of discipline and hard work.

 

One of those is hugely rewarding and moves your life forwards... and the other is a spiral into darkness.

 

There’s no quick fix sadly. But equally - choosing a life of discipline is a reward in its own way... it just takes time and effort to uncover.

 

Secondly - you can’t really use willpower to make this change - will power fades - you need to set up a system and follow the system indefinitely. Have a look at the book Atomic Habits - it covers many different approaches to do that. Plus the author also went through a major difficulty and transformed it with good habits.

 

With diet the big things to start with is removing all sweet drinks (including ‘natural’ juices and sugar free ones) from your diet completely. Then removing any other sugar and eventually processed foods. 
 

Vegan diet is not suitable for most people. To build jing do have red meat occasionally - but also eggs (yolks in particular) - nuts (walnuts) seeds etc.

 

In terms of sleep consistent timing is important. Waking up at the same time every day - getting out of bed as soon as you wake up.

 

Ill find a specific practice you can do and post it here @charlesjorden

 

There’s definitely a light at the end of the tunnel. And in fact the light is far brighter than you thought... But it takes time for things to change - particularly kidney issues! Think how many years you’ve spent getting into this situation... it’s gonna take more than 2 months to get out.

 

I’ve seen people in a similar situation get back to relative normality in 6 to 9 months... but there’s something even better than ‘normality’ there for you if you make it a life commitment... 

Gotcha! I am taking notes. I am taking all the suggestions and will begin applying them in these next few days once I figure out a routine for myself. I do plan on updating everyone on my progress and the routine I ultimately choose. I am very curious so I do have a few more questions! 
1. Is there any hope for my tinnitus? As I feel that this has come along directly from my kidney's being out of whack. I have never read upon anyone getting rid or reducing their tinnitus. 

2. Why is it that "most people" don't deal with this same problem as me? If it is caused by weed then why me? I know people that have smoked like crazy for their entire lives. That is if it is even caused just by weed or a mixture of things. 
3. I am taking Zuo Gui Wan 4 times a day (pills) as instructed by my acupunturist. Is this good enough to build my jing alone? I have no problem doing every single thing recommended by you guys but there have been too many times that I have overwhelmed myself given these simple thing are some HUGE life changes. 
4. Sex/Masturbation! I'm practicing semen retention at a little over a month right now. Which is the longest I've ever been celibate since I first lost my virginity 10 years ago! I get being moderate in sexual activity is healthy for you but wouldn't just conserving jing/semen until I'm completely healed be the best route? 
5. Why is Derealization/Depersonalization such a taboo topic that NOBODY has the answer to? I've been searching for quite a while and I've only found one person (Lush Lemur) who says he has cured himself from it. Others that have this disorder live with it for weeks, months, years, even decades. Why do some people get like this and others don't? Why do some people suffer for so long and other don't? Are all cases of this disorder caused by a Jing deficiency? If so, does your body want to anchor itself in the lower dan tien? 

So many questions for you guys, glad to see some people with some type of insight, anything helps! Derealization/Depersonalization is the main thing that effects my everyday life. Not sure if people understand exactly what this is, which I'm sure it's a mixture of things. If you would like to me to explain it to you guys more in depth, let me know! Or just google it, there are plenty of people online suffering from it. 

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Just now, charlesjorden said:

Gotcha! I am taking notes. I am taking all the suggestions and will begin applying them in these next few days once I figure out a routine for myself. I do plan on updating everyone on my progress and the routine I ultimately choose. I am very curious so I do have a few more questions! 
1. Is there any hope for my tinnitus? As I feel that this has come along directly from my kidney's being out of whack. I have never read upon anyone getting rid or reducing their tinnitus. 

2. Why is it that "most people" don't deal with this same problem as me? If it is caused by weed then why me? I know people that have smoked like crazy for their entire lives. That is if it is even caused just by weed or a mixture of things. 
3. I am taking Zuo Gui Wan 4 times a day (pills) as instructed by my acupunturist. Is this good enough to build my jing alone? I have no problem doing every single thing recommended by you guys but there have been too many times that I have overwhelmed myself given these simple thing are some HUGE life changes. 
4. Sex/Masturbation! I'm practicing semen retention at a little over a month right now. Which is the longest I've ever been celibate since I first lost my virginity 10 years ago! I get being moderate in sexual activity is healthy for you but wouldn't just conserving jing/semen until I'm completely healed be the best route? 
5. Why is Derealization/Depersonalization such a taboo topic that NOBODY has the answer to? I've been searching for quite a while and I've only found one person (Lush Lemur) who says he has cured himself from it. Others that have this disorder live with it for weeks, months, years, even decades. Why do some people get like this and others don't? Why do some people suffer for so long and other don't? Are all cases of this disorder caused by a Jing deficiency? If so, does your body want to anchor itself in the lower dan tien? 

So many questions for you guys, glad to see some people with some type of insight, anything helps! Derealization/Depersonalization is the main thing that effects my everyday life. Not sure if people understand exactly what this is, which I'm sure it's a mixture of things. If you would like to me to explain it to you guys more in depth, let me know! Or just google it, there are plenty of people online suffering from it. 

One more thing to add! I still lust quite a lot everyday, whether it's with my girlfriend or just being online. This leads to me leaking semen quite a lot. Is this hindering my healing? If so is there anything I can do about it? Or just stop lusting period. You guys recommended to have sex moderately but I'm sure that would be way harder than to stop completely. 

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17 minutes ago, charlesjorden said:

1. Is there any hope for my tinnitus? As I feel that this has come along directly from my kidney's being out of whack. I have never read upon anyone getting rid or reducing their tinnitus. 

 

If you find a skilled Chinese medicine specialist they should be able to ascertain what the background for your tinnitus is. Sometimes it's not even related to the kidneys and is actually related to the liver. You would need a proper diagnosis to know for sure. 

 

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2. Why is it that "most people" don't deal with this same problem as me? If it is caused by weed then why me? I know people that have smoked like crazy for their entire lives. That is if it is even caused just by weed or a mixture of things.

 

There are many options. One is that many people are deeply sick, but they mask their sickness using all kinds of other things. Some stimulate themselves to death with all kinds of things in escaping their internal suffering. Those are the types where you think they're doing okay, but if you're sensitive enough, you can feel they're really not healthy at all. Two is that some of those "people" have enough good habits to offset any negative effects accrued from having smoked throughout their lives. Thirdly, it could be that they simply have better and more robust bodies (prenatal jing) making them able to withstand such injuries better than others.

 

There are far more factors than just these three however, as it also comes down to things like karma and the timing of injuries. One could say that in a hundred lifetimes from now, even though you couldn't see it from where you are now, having this illness was the best thing that ever happened to you. It forced you to change your entire life, take up spiritual practice, move toward something "higher" and change the overall trajectory of your Ming (destiny); or rather align yourself with it bringing you closer to Dao. In the Ch'an Chinese wisdom tradition it is said that some of the masters made the most progress when they were the most sick. There are many things to ponder here... 

 

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3. I am taking Zuo Gui Wan 4 times a day (pills) as instructed by my acupunturist. Is this good enough to build my jing alone? I have no problem doing every single thing recommended by you guys but there have been too many times that I have overwhelmed myself given these simple thing are some HUGE life changes. 

 

I would recommend keeping with the treatment protocol as prescribed. If it's a good practictioner and a good treatment, you should notice changes within the next 3-6 months from the herbal therapy alone. If you combine it with the advice in this thread, major improvements will occur, though it will take time and there are always major setbacks and sufferings. In the words of the Buddhist and Daoist master Bodhidharma, 

 

Many roads lead to the Path, but basically there are only two: reason and practice. To enter by reason means to realise the essence through instruction and to believe that all things share the same true nature, which isn't apparent because it shrouded by sensation and delusion. Those who turn from delusion back to reality, who meditate on walls, the absence of self and the other, the oneness of mortal and sage, and who remain unmoved even by scriptures are in complete and unspoken agreement with reason. Without moving, without effort, they enter, we say, by reason.
 

To enter by practice refers to four all inclusive practices: suffering injustice, adapting to conditions, seeking nothing and practising the Dharma.
 

First, suffering injustice. When those who search for the path encounter adversity, they should think to themselves, "In countless ages gone by, I have turned from the essential to the trivial and wandered through all manner of existence, often angry without cause and guilty of numberless transgressions. Now, though I do no wrong, I'm punished by my past...

 

... 


This is a frustrating part of a life of discipline. It's painful. You want to run back to your bad habits because at least they provided you with temporary joys that blunted the pain you felt. But now that you're no longer running, all this stuff comes up to face you.

 

Simple, not easy. 

 

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4. Sex/Masturbation! I'm practicing semen retention at a little over a month right now. Which is the longest I've ever been celibate since I first lost my virginity 10 years ago! I get being moderate in sexual activity is healthy for you but wouldn't just conserving jing/semen until I'm completely healed be the best route? 

 

Don't make the same mistake I did and become attached to the idea of semen retention. Even "semen retention" is a misnomer and it places a completely wrong emphasis in the mind. The emphasis is not on "retaining semen", the emphasis is on changing your psychology and the attachments surrounding sex and learning to consolidate your essence to a higher degree. So instead of thinking, "I need to BUILD my jing, I need to create more!", think... How can I change the quality and efficiency of the jing that I already have?

 

For a very long time (until high-levels of alchemy where you can actually begin to replenish jing, or bring out the cream of the crop of jing, called the Jing Hua) this is all done through the Yang Sheng Fa principles covered in this thread along with consolidating the Jing. You can read more about this concept in Damo's latest book the Comphrensive Guide to Daoist Neigong. The idea is that you still your essence by, to use a modern term that freeform just shared, "dopamine fasting". 

 

17 minutes ago, charlesjorden said:

5. Why is Derealization/Depersonalization such a taboo topic that NOBODY has the answer to? I've been searching for quite a while and I've only found one person (Lush Lemur) who says he has cured himself from it. Others that have this disorder live with it for weeks, months, years, even decades. Why do some people get like this and others don't? Why do some people suffer for so long and other don't? Are all cases of this disorder caused by a Jing deficiency? If so, does your body want to anchor itself in the lower dan tien? 

 

My general impression is that those that have a tendency toward anxiety are more likely to develop these issues. The second thing is that it's often people that are very sensitive and also people that are interested in spirituality that tend to develop these types of issues. I cannot tell you why exactly as it involves extremely complex causal chains that are simply not visible to anyone without the Wisdom Eye opened. 

 

Hope this helps. :) 

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Why do some people suffer for so long and other don't?

 

I also want to bring up something called the Parable of the Poisoned Arrow shared by the Buddha as it may show to you that even knowing the exact reason why may not be what you need to know. 

 

It's just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon, and the man would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a priest, a merchant, or a worker.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me... until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short... until I know whether he was dark, ruddy-brown, or golden-colored... until I know his home village, town, or city... until I know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a long bow or a crossbow... until I know whether the bowstring with which I was wounded was fiber, bamboo threads, sinew, hemp, or bark... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was wild or cultivated... until I know whether the feathers of the shaft with which I was wounded were those of a vulture, a stork, a hawk, a peacock, or another bird... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was bound with the sinew of an ox, a water buffalo, a langur, or a monkey.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was that of a common arrow, a curved arrow, a barbed, a calf-toothed, or an oleander arrow.' The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him.

 

....

 

All of this not to tell you not to inquire into "why", but simply to perhaps change perspective and emphasis on things. Sometimes the more you focus on healing "from" something the more you actually worsen that blockage. Sometimes it's better to just focus on healing and regeneration in general, on becoming healthy in general, but without stressing about your kidneys, your jing, and the reasons behind it. This requires a lot of acceptance and a lot of dedication to changing one's way of living, and as someone who has struggled (and is still struggling with the same as yourself to a certain degree), I can completely and utterly relate to your situation.

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Once a person has the idea of "semen retention" in mind, moderate sexual behavior can be really difficult.  It´s hard because it´s so moderate -- there´s no glory in it.  It´s hard for the ego to attach to the idea of having sex, say, every week or so, whereas complete celibacy seems comparatively flashy.  Enlightenment!  Immortality!  Confidence with women!  To hear stories on the internet, all this is possible with semen retention.  Nobody gives out prizes for sexual moderation.

 

And yet it´s precisely this "nothing special" quality of moderation that gives it it´s power.

 

(Not that I´d know, really.)

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1 hour ago, charlesjorden said:

 

5. Why is Derealization/Depersonalization such a taboo topic that NOBODY has the answer to? 

Because it is a difficult subject! 

 

Basically, it is a reaction to threat. 

Usually, a threat you cannot escape from, and where the only solution is to inhibit all signs of struggle. 

 

Many who develop this have had prolonged abuse during childhood, too often from someone close or in a situation where you expect to be "safe". 

 

Seen from how the brain reacts, there is increased activity (a functional network) in a bunch of brain centers which basically over-regulate emotions and blocks signals from the body. 

 

Some of these centers are also implied in religious experiences, so you can see why it overlaps with spirituality. 

 

And yes, drugs can affect this, especially if someone has an emotional baggage and/or other problems affecting the brain systems involved in emotional regulation. 

 

As to discussing the "why" in a specific persons situation, digging into that is not really a good idea in a forum, because some of those "why" needs a huge amount of TLC to heal. 

But in order to heal, it is usually adviced to do basic work first, to lay the foundation for a resolution. 

 

If you are lucky, maybe there is just the one method that will fix it. 

For most, it is the entire package. 

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Some really great advice!

 

I just want to add that - no it’s not possible to change something so significant with just herbs/acupuncture and no lifestyle change.

 

Yes it takes a leap of faith to make changes. However you must find these lifestyle changes valuable and rewarding in their own right (because they are) - and not just a means to an end... because you’ll probably quit before they’ve had the opportunity to help.

 

In the majority of people, simply hoarding sperm will cause more problems than it solves.
 

Actually when the jing starts to consolidate, you don’t feel so lusty and uncontrollably horny - in fact your appetite becomes naturally ‘moderate’. Even if you’re much more ‘verile’ when that time comes. (This does depend on not feeding your mind with constant sexual stimulation...)

 

The depersonalisation issue can happen because of many different things. From a Daoist perspective this is often the result of some part of your inner soul ‘team’ has become unrooted. Jing deficiency means it can’t anchor again. Though the jing deficiency is probably not the cause for it (smoking strong weed (and often trauma) usually is) - ones ability to get back to normal however is hampered greatly by jing deficiency.

 

The other issue with jing deficiency is that it impacts on every aspect of ones life - including everything from health, lifespan, quality of mental health and clarity of thought - and even the quality of life for one’s children...
 

My teacher told me that he generally would only see jing deficiency in people past 50 - and usually in hard working labourers or people working night shifts for decades... until recently jing deficiency in young men was extremely rare. 

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43 minutes ago, freeform said:

My teacher told me that he generally would only see jing deficiency in people past 50 - and usually in hard working labourers or people working night shifts for decades... until recently jing deficiency in young men was extremely rare. 

 

So he sees it a lot in young men now? Is it all due to the psychological attachments surrounding sex, or is it also related to stress levels? And what were his treatments usually for those people? The lifestyle changes you recommended, or would he recommend specifically tailored solutions to each one based on the causal pattern? 

 

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The other issue with jing deficiency is that it impacts on every aspect of ones life - including everything from health, lifespan, quality of mental health and clarity of thought - and even the quality of life for one’s children...

 

Yikes. In what way would that quality of life issue manifest for them, you mean in terms of the robustness of their health, or would they actually developmentally be stunted? Is jing deficiency also related to troubles conceiving?

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8 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

So he sees it a lot in young men now? Is it all due to the psychological attachments surrounding sex, or is it also related to stress levels?


Sex, masturbation, lust, mental sexual stimulation (online, on tv, music etc)...

 

addictive non-sexual stimulation - social media, apps, games is a big one too...

 

As far as I understand these are the main issues.

 

10 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

And what were his treatments usually for those people? The lifestyle changes you recommended, or would he recommend specifically tailored solutions to each one based on the causal pattern?


Usually lifestyle changes were a must - and often required before he would do treatment.

 

His treatment involved acupuncture, wei Qi Liao fa and other esoteric stuff... mostly to change aspects of the Ming... and less on actual medical issues.

 

But if lifestyle changes were not adhered to, he would not treat - because changing someone’s Ming is a big thing - and there has to be an ‘opening’ for that to be viable.

 

He also would turn away a proportion of people who came to him because he’d recognise that there was no opening in the Ming.

 

I tend to think that people who are drawn to cultivation naturally have this opening. But often some karmic entanglement is too strong and they stop training or get drawn into delusion, down tangents or towards trivialities...

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18 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

Yikes. In what way would that quality of life issue manifest for them, you mean in terms of the robustness of their health, or would they actually developmentally be stunted? Is jing deficiency also related to troubles conceiving?


Some people have a constitutional ‘gift’ whereby they can do all manner of depleting stuff but not suffer... however this ‘information’ is encoded in ones jing and is then passed on to ones children and grand children...

 

Yes usually it’s a case of low robustness of health.


Rarely developmental stunting. This is normally caused by sexual trauma or through being dominated/forced/imprisoned in some way early in life... Often you’ll see people who’s bodies have aged, but shaped like a child’s body - this is often the result of having the unfolding of one’s jing being frozen at a certain developmental stage by a trauma. 

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2 hours ago, freeform said:

 

The depersonalisation issue can happen because of many different things. From a Daoist perspective this is often the result of some part of your inner soul ‘team’ has become unrooted. Jing deficiency means it can’t anchor again. Though the jing deficiency is probably not the cause for it (smoking strong weed (and often trauma) usually is) - ones ability to get back to normal however is hampered greatly by jing deficiency.

That's exactly what it was for me, the weed was too strong even after smoking for years. I knew it too, it was a preroll and they mixed a little bit of everything in there. It wasn't laced though, I checked. After all of this suffering I believe this is a good thing even if I don't see it now. My life was on a fast decline and this definitely caught my attention. Also, I've had a great childhood thus far, no real trauma at all. I went to somatic experiencing for a little over 10 sessions and got absolutely no where. Just a lot of shaking but it actually felt good! Speaking of shaking, throughout my life when I would go pee usually I would let out an uncontrollable shake but ONLY while peeing. After my weed incident last year I get those same exact shakes but randomly throughout the day. A surge of energy comes from the core of my body for a split second and forces my entire body to shake for that second and push out air very hard through my nose. I wonder what it could be.

Edited by charlesjorden
I forgot to add a detail!

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3 minutes ago, charlesjorden said:

After all of this suffering I believe this is a good thing even if I don't see it now. My life was on a fast decline and this definitely caught my attention.

 

Yes... as @anshino23 says - there's other things at play here...

 

20 hours ago, anshino23 said:

One could say that in a hundred lifetimes from now, even though you couldn't see it from where you are now, having this illness was the best thing that ever happened to you. It forced you to change your entire life, take up spiritual practice, move toward something "higher" and change the overall trajectory of your Ming (destiny); or rather align yourself with it bringing you closer to Dao. In the Ch'an Chinese wisdom tradition it is said that some of the masters made the most progress when they were the most sick. There are many things to ponder here...

 

Many people come to living a deeper more meaningful life by suffering through hardship.

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3 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Yes... as @anshino23 says - there's other things at play here...

 

 

Many people come to living a deeper more meaningful life by suffering through hardship.

Not sure if TCM uses Kundalini at all but could this be at play maybe? I spent my first year believing I was going through that and I had to push through for 12 years until I would feel great. Now I'm at a point where I just want to feel grounded. I've never been spiritual in my entire life, wasn't raised that way. Going through this journey and learning what I've learned makes me want to take some type of step forward into spirituality but I have so much fear in me currently that it feels impossible. Fear that is unjustifiable. 

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2 minutes ago, charlesjorden said:

Going through this journey and learning what I've learned makes me want to take some type of step forward into spirituality but I have so much fear in me currently that it feels impossible. Fear that is unjustifiable. 

 

It will come when you're ready - start by getting back to health and wellbeing - then build on that :)

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On 12/29/2020 at 10:08 AM, freeform said:

Some people have a constitutional ‘gift’ whereby they can do all manner of depleting stuff but not suffer... however this ‘information’ is encoded in ones jing and is then passed on to ones children and grand children...

 

Fascinating.  Can this affect family members that are not direct descendents?  Like, say, a niece or nephew?

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19 hours ago, Creation said:

Fascinating.  Can this affect family members that are not direct descendents?  Like, say, a niece or nephew?


On a jing level the effect is on direct descendants - for 4 generations if I’m not mistaken. 
 

This is what makes up part of one’s prenatal jing... it’s basically Daoist epigenetics :)

 

Though you can certainly affect other family members or just people close to you on a Qi level.

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On 27/12/2020 at 10:51 AM, freeform said:

getting out of bed as soon as you wake up.

I know this is an old thread, but it popped up during a search and I find this curious. Why  is this particular activity good for less drainage of one's Jing? If you're waking up at regular times, why should that matter?

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On 03/11/2021 at 12:08 AM, -_sometimes said:

I know this is an old thread, but it popped up during a search and I find this curious. Why  is this particular activity good for less drainage of one's Jing? If you're waking up at regular times, why should that matter?


When you wake, your yang Qi starts to stir… if you lay in bed the yang Qi is not allowed to express as it wants and so it becomes stagnant. Over time this affects the yin/yang balance in your body and you’ll tend to become sluggish and low in energy.

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On 04/11/2021 at 9:39 PM, freeform said:


When you wake, your yang Qi starts to stir… if you lay in bed the yang Qi is not allowed to express as it wants and so it becomes stagnant. Over time this affects the yin/yang balance in your body and you’ll tend to become sluggish and low in energy.

I am grateful for your input! I tend to stay too long in bed after waking up, not really feeling the energy to get out.. now that you've mentioned this, I have more reason to avoid doing so, especially since I do have some trouble with sluggishness, so thanks!

Edited by -_sometimes
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