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Realised Beings: Including them in your practice

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Nice article 

Like many things in Buddhism (and Daoism for that matter), this subject is intimate, personal, and must be rooted in practice. Conceptual categories and labels are limiting, belief is a trap. Faith, on the other hand, is very supportive.

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Posted (edited)

Somewhat correlated --

 

I've been interested in mapping  the Buddhist concept of "kaya" (form) and the Vedantic "Sharira" (body) models. The sambhogakaya seems to parallel the causal body (kārana sharira).

 

 

Yes realized beings manifest in non-corporeal form to help the limited beings in corporeal form. Very valuable practices and lessons can arise from this. But those practices and lessons need to be understood in their correct context, imho. 

Edited by dwai
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Posted (edited)
On 16/06/2020 at 8:29 PM, dwai said:

I've been interested in mapping  the Buddhist concept of "kaya" (form) and the Vedantic "Sharira" (body) models. The sambhogakaya seems to parallel the causal body (kārana sharira).

I'm not a scholar in any tradition, though I don't think kaya would be a useful comparison when mapping the ontological levels of a human being between approaches, assuming of course ordinary beings are being mapped. Kayas are used to describe the emanational bodies of wisdom beings and whole realms of existence like Nirmanakaya and Sambhogakaya fields.

 

Rupa (form), the first of the Five Skandas which make up an ordinary being  along with the model of the Eight Consciousnesses may perhaps provide some possibilities for correlation. 

Edited by rex
Clarity & spelilng & more tpoys
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I agree. Kayas are slippery. They are not necessarily the same across traditions, and even within traditions may be used differently. I see where the correlate may be drawn (the bliss of the causal body and the bliss of the sambhogakaya). In some sense, I would consider the alayavijnana closer to the causal body, but even then it is not a 1:1.

 

 

1 hour ago, rex said:

I'm not a scholar in any tradition, though I don't think kaya would be a useful comparison when mapping the ontological levels of a human being between approaches, assuming of course ordinary beings are being mapped. Kayas are used to describe the emanational bodies of wisdom beings and whole realms of existence like Nirmanakaya and Sambhogakaya fields.

 

Rupa (form), the first of the Five Skandas which make up an ordinary being  along with the model of the Eight Consciounesses may perhaps provide some possibilities for correlation. 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

I agree. Kayas are slippery. They are not necessarily the same across traditions, and even within traditions may be used differently. I see where the correlate may be drawn (the bliss of the causal body and the bliss of the sambhogakaya). In some sense, I would consider the alayavijnana closer to the causal body, but even then it is not a 1:1.

 

 

 

If you look at the second link I provide, the Zen Buddhists (at least per Roshi Philip Kapleau) have the lower Alaya-Vijnana, which I would call the (individual) causal body proper. The Sambhogakaya seems to be corresponding with the causal body without the veiling of Maya (or Ishwara - which is Brahman's Causal body in the Vedantic term).

 

Spoiler

The-Zen-and-Vedanta-Rosetta-Stone.png?w=

2 hours ago, rex said:

I'm not a scholar in any tradition, though I don't think kaya would be a useful comparison when mapping the ontological levels of a human being between approaches, assuming of course ordinary beings are being mapped. Kayas are used to describe the emanational bodies of wisdom beings and whole realms of existence like Nirmanakaya and Sambhogakaya fields.

I don't consider there to be any difference between human beings or existence itself in the broad scope. Ultimately there ARE no wisdom beings and realms of existence apart from our true nature. That's why I'd said in my earlier comment -- context is important.

:) 

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20 hours ago, dwai said:

Somewhat correlated --

 

I've been interested in mapping  the Buddhist concept of "kaya" (form) and the Vedantic "Sharira" (body) models. The sambhogakaya seems to parallel the causal body (kārana sharira).

 

 

Yes realized beings manifest in non-corporeal form to help the limited beings in corporeal form. Very valuable practices and lessons can arise from this. But those practices and lessons need to be understood in their correct context, imho. 

This has always fascinated me.  People seeing gods, ghosts, dragons, out-of-body teachers.  I've met a few who've had close personal encounters with Hindu Gods, Voodoo Gods, been visited, talked to them and gotten answers back.  Those who've seen dragons.  I've read of skeptical professors visiting India, being shown the 'real thing' where during services, metal statues come to life.  A rabbi of mystical bend, asking another participant at a seminar, 'did you see that on his shoulder?', and the answer was 'Yes, looked like a leprechaun, didn't it'. 

 

As a guy living in the tik tok world, I have not experienced such.  My mind is half open, half skeptic.  Thus I accept the world may be multi-dimensional, filled with things unseen.  Seeing them has some benefit and some problems.  Plus some people see things that aren't there, and when real, most have filters that interpret what they see through personal and cultural lenses.

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This has always fascinated me.  People seeing gods, ghosts, dragons, out-of-body teachers.  I've met a few who've had close personal encounters with Hindu Gods, Voodoo Gods, been visited, talked to them and gotten answers back.  Those who've seen dragons.  I've read of skeptical professors visiting India, being shown the 'real thing' where during services, metal statues come to life.  A rabbi of mystical bend, asking another participant at a seminar, 'did you see that on his shoulder?', and the answer was 'Yes, looked like a leprechaun, didn't it'. 

The biggest limitation of our 'access' is in our minds. Imagine a group of people who grow up only within the boundaries of a somewhat large building, never having to step outside for anything in their lives. These people have no idea that there is a sky above, and a ground beneath, of rivers, oceans, mountains, etc, etc. They live contended in their environment without knowledge of a 'larger' existence outside their building, until a visitor from outside knocks on their door, or perhaps one of them manages to get out and see the world outside. I believe there's an old greek story along those lines...but only that in that story, the people lived in tunnels under a mountain.

 

I consider most of us 'modern' people like those building-dwellers, who have developed their own limited universe, based on the limitations of their knowledge.

I think the first hurdle is overcome when we keep an open mind. To be able to say, "I don't know, but let me find out" is a very powerful way to approach things. 

Quote

As a guy living in the tik tok world, I have not experienced such.  My mind is half open, half skeptic.  Thus I accept the world may be multi-dimensional, filled with things unseen.  Seeing them has some benefit and some problems.  Plus some people see things that aren't there, and when real, most have filters that interpret what they see through personal and cultural lenses.

WRT the problem of filters, yes, there is always going to filters. Even what we experience in the world of phenomena today is filtered. Who has ever known anything without a filter? The mind is required to know, and the mind is informed by many things, such as culture, etc. I believe that to 'see' from another perspective, one has to change filters as much as possible. 

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I have two minds about this. One mind is that it would be nice to see something so mind-blasting that your sense of a solid, independent, material world is blown to bits. But then I realize that the basic experience of the world is so mind-blowing, I would be less surprised to see someone walking through a wall. By all accounts, there shouldn't be conscious experience, yet there is. The mind is formless, yet all these forms appear within and as it. There is no qualitative difference between an intense dream and the waking state. How the heck can we mistake our bodies for a self? Why do we take thoughts, which are really nothing but sculptures of light, sound and feeling, so seriously and why do we believe them? 

 

One of my favorite spiritual experiences is when I was grappling with the experience of waking and dreams. At the time, I was working through Berkeley's critique of the material world. Not just reading, but actually exploring experience to see if it was the case or not. 

I walked up to a rock, a la Samuel Johnson, and started stomping on it.  Ha ha, it was so solid and real! How could anyone think otherwise? The idea that the world is not material was so obviously ridiculous! 

 

And as it turned out, I was actually taking a nap and dreaming. I immediately woke up, and instantly the solid rock in the solid ground vanished without a trace. :huh::o:P

 

 

 
 
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1 hour ago, thelerner said:

This has always fascinated me.  People seeing gods, ghosts, dragons, out-of-body teachers.  I've met a few who've had close personal encounters with Hindu Gods, Voodoo Gods, been visited, talked to them and gotten answers back.  Those who've seen dragons.  I've read of skeptical professors visiting India, being shown the 'real thing' where during services, metal statues come to life.  A rabbi of mystical bend, asking another participant at a seminar, 'did you see that on his shoulder?', and the answer was 'Yes, looked like a leprechaun, didn't it'. 

 

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6 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

I have two minds about this. One mind is that it would be nice to see something so mind-blasting that your sense of a solid, independent, material world is blown to bits. But then I realize that the basic experience of the world is so mind-blowing, I would be less surprised to see someone walking through a wall. By all accounts, there shouldn't be conscious experience, yet there is. The mind is formless, yet all these forms appear within and as it. There is no qualitative difference between an intense dream and the waking state. How the heck can we mistake our bodies for a self? Why do we take thoughts, which are really nothing but sculptures of light, sound and feeling, so seriously and why do we believe them? 

 

One of my favorite spiritual experiences is when I was grappling with the experience of waking and dreams. At the time, I was working through Berkeley's critique of the material world. Not just reading, but actually exploring experience to see if it was the case or not. 

I walked up to a rock, a la Samuel Johnson, and started stomping on it.  Ha ha, it was so solid and real! How could anyone think otherwise? The idea that the world is not material was so obviously ridiculous! 

 

And as it turned out, I was actually taking a nap and dreaming. I immediately woke up, and instantly the solid rock in the solid ground vanished without a trace. :huh::o:P

 

 

 

Since I started studying with my teacher, I started waking up pretty much like clockwork between 3:30 and 4:30 AM, and often undergoing some form of hypnagogia. My mind was wide awake, but my body was asleep. However, though most people seem to feel fear and terror, I didn't feel it at all. I was fully aware of what was going on, though my mind couldn't make sense of what used to happen initially due to the completely bizarre and out-of-reference nature of the events that would unfold. 

 

So, a few months into my tutelage under my teacher, when I was an intensive workshop, the entire group was housed in (mostly) one wing of a hotel. We worked out/meditated all day and then in the night we'd retire. First night I woke up at 3:30 AM, same situation (hypnagogia) and I saw my teacher walking through the walls :D (not the physical body, but the subtle body). I was used to this kind of stuff by then, so I went back to sleep after a while.

 

The next morning, again at 3:30 AM, a loud sound in my ear woke me up. I thought one of my buddies was playing  a trick on me. Turns out no one was there, but in that hypnagogic state, I was transmitted a mantra which was very effective in certain meditations that we were doing at the time, though it seemed that the vedic mantra was unrelated to the daoist meditation we were doing, yet, I knew how to use the mantra and increase the potency of the meditation. I don't know how I knew, but I just knew...

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It's a cop-out for serious work, but after 30 years or so of meditation, looking.. somewhat half assed for the mystical.. well I'm growing psilocybin mushrooms, not for fun or to get high, rather to see where they may take me, mystically.  

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8 minutes ago, thelerner said:

It's a cop-out for serious work, but after 30 years or so of meditation, looking.. somewhat half assed for the mystical.. well I'm growing psilocybin mushrooms, not for fun or to get high, rather to see where they may take me, mystically.  

That'll help for sure. Entheogens are meant for that...to temporarily silence the voice of 'mother culture' (to borrow a line from Ishmael). A friend of mine did that and it made a huge change for him. 

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On 6/16/2020 at 4:45 AM, steve said:

Nice article 

Like many things in Buddhism (and Daoism for that matter), this subject is intimate, personal, and must be rooted in practice. Conceptual categories and labels are limiting, belief is a trap. Faith, on the other hand, is very supportive.

 

Hi steve,

 

I have yet to read the article as I do not want to be 'trapped'.

 

I am here as I am attracted to...

Realised Beings: Including them in your practice

I am especially attracted to  Including  in relation to ~ TRUST.     

 

 

28 minutes ago, thelerner said:

I'm growing psilocybin mushrooms, not for fun or to get high, rather to see where they may take me, mystically.

 

Hi Michael,

 

Psilocybin mushrooms ~ for instance these...?

 

th?id=OIP.KP23Um4hEmgwNv-uX10uJwHaE7&pid=Api&P=0&w=244&h=163 th?id=OIP.nB-G1G8M3nfFWWzvJ86Z-AHaFL&pid=Api&P=0&w=239&h=168 th?id=OIP.lKniz-Tpovd8ifaM8OAYIQHaE8&pid=Api&P=0&w=248&h=166

 

May I mystically add...?

 

 

Keep safe and well.

 

- Anand

 

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In the Tibetan tradition, there are correlations drawn with the bardos of death and the states of sleep. The transition is roughly equivalent to the bardo of becoming. Because it is a bardo, things a bit more "open." 

 

 
 
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5 hours ago, dwai said:

Since I started studying with my teacher, I started waking up pretty much like clockwork between 3:30 and 4:30 AM, and often undergoing some form of hypnagogia. My mind was wide awake, but my body was asleep. However, though most people seem to feel fear and terror, I didn't feel it at all. I was fully aware of what was going on, though my mind couldn't make sense of what used to happen initially due to the completely bizarre and out-of-reference nature of the events that would unfold. 

 

Why not? Michael Pollan did a nice write up in "How to Change Your Mind." Sometimes I wonder if psychedelics hadn't been pushed too hard by the 1960's counterculture, leading to its subsequent banning, how different things might be now. With serious science going on, hopefully these things will be back in the mainstream. Sam Harris had a pretty good experience: https://samharris.org/podcasts/177-psychedelic-science/

 

2 hours ago, thelerner said:

It's a cop-out for serious work, but after 30 years or so of meditation, looking.. somewhat half assed for the mystical.. well I'm growing psilocybin mushrooms, not for fun or to get high, rather to see where they may take me, mystically.  

 

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Posted (edited)
On 17/06/2020 at 4:47 PM, dwai said:

I don't consider there to be any difference between human beings or existence itself in the broad scope. Ultimately there ARE no wisdom beings and realms of existence apart from our true nature. That's why I'd said in my earlier comment -- context is important.

:) 

 

Yes of course, thanks for the reminder (I'm not being sarcastic). This book has been on my to 'get list' for far too long now:

https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Map-Body-Visions-Structure/dp/8878341398

 

While the Five Skandhas describe the make up of ordinary beings, the true natures of the Five Skandhas are the Five Dhyani Buddhas. On a very basic level of undertanding - which is all I have - Body, Speech and Mind can be related to the three kayas - Body/Nirmakaya, Speech/ Sambhogakaya, Mind/Dharmakaya - which may also correlate to the Sounds, Lights and Rays in the Dzogchen teaching.

 

So there we have it, three interconnected maps of the human being/any being according to Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen, going from the particular to the universal and beyond.  Looks like I've done a u-turn on my previous post - it's good to talk :)

Edited by rex
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On 6/18/2020 at 11:50 AM, rex said:

 

Yes of course, thanks for the reminder (I'm not being sarcastic). This book has been on my to 'get list' for far too long now:

https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Map-Body-Visions-Structure/dp/8878341398

 

While the Five Skandhas describe the make up of ordinary beings, the true natures of the Five Skandhas are the Five Dhyani Buddhas. On a very basic level of undertanding - which is all I have - Body, Speech and Mind can be related to the three kayas - Body/Nirmakaya, Speech/ Sambhogakaya, Mind/Dharmakaya - which may also correlate to the Sounds, Lights and Rays in the Dzogchen teaching.

 

Body, Speech, and Mind in the Bön dzogchen teachings are the doorways to the three bodies and are referred to as the Three Doors.

In the Bön system the Body maps to the Dharmakaya or Bönku - the Body of Bön.

Speech is Sambhogakaya, or Dzogku - Body of Perfection.

Mind is Nirmanakaya, or Trulku - Body of Manifestation.

The mapping may seem counterintuitive but relates to our practical experience in meditation - body of emptiness (dharmakaya) is experienced through stillness of the body;  body of light (sambhogakaya) through silence of the inner and outer voices; and body of great bliss or manifestation (nirmanakaya) is experienced through the openness and spaciousness of mind/heart which gives rise to inner warmth, the four immeasurables.

 

 

 

 

On 6/18/2020 at 11:50 AM, rex said:

 

So there we have it, three interconnected maps of the human being/any being according to Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen, going from the particular to the universal and beyond.  Looks like I've done a u-turn on my previous post - it's good to talk :)

 

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I would associate the 3 shariras and 5 koshas of vedanta to Nirmanakaya. Because they are all started afresh in each life as such they are not immortal.

 

" The buddha:] "Monk, the four great existents [earth, water, fire & wind] are the cause, the four great existents the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of form. Contact is the cause, contact is the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of feeling. Contact is the cause, contact is the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of perception. Contact is the cause, contact is the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of fabrications. Name-&-form is the cause, Name-&-form the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of consciousness." "

 

So you can see the 5 skhandas having 3 vehicles as cause in the same arrangement as the 3 shariras for the 5 koshas. And the skhandas are non-immortal and make up our experience here. Normally people cannot experience an immortal and see their Nirmanakaya shadow, if present.

 

The Sambogakaya being immortal, it cannot be hurt. Don't they justify people born with organ and health problems as damage in the karana sharira from previous life that did not heal properly?

 

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