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12 hours ago, freeform said:


That’s certainly where my ‘new Jaguar’ money would be going...

 


Most of my teachers have followed this example. Including refusing any ‘grandmaster’ type titles - even shifu was too much for most...

 

Although I’ve also had a teacher with a slightly more flamboyant nature - he liked to dress up... but rather than ‘spiritual garb’ - it usually manifested in wonderfully obscure ways - this very Chinese-Vietnamese teacher absolutely loved the 80’s Texan-cowboy-turned-oil-tycoon look - with hilarious results, obviously - the hilarity was not lost on him either...

 

When our teacher died , people from all over the world came to the funeral and wake . His neighbours where astounded " Why are all these people here , who are they ?"   They where told they where people who had learnt or studied under him and who admired and acknowledged his skill .   The neighbours didnt even know about that  .... they though he ran a catering business   - which he did 

 

... as he didnt charge money for teachings .    ;)

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7 hours ago, flowing hands said:

 

Yes most ancient Chinese forms were focused on battlefield craft and when studying a weapon for instance like a sword, one has to be able to use both arms in the same way..... if your right arm is injured you then must use the left. The form I am practicing in the vid is the Monkey God's cudgel form. There are three forms and all are quite acrobatic and long. The cudgel I'm using is quite heavy, being made out of a very strong hardwood and about 45mm in diameter. In the training we learn to use a stainless steel cudgel weighing about 40-50lbs, and do the forms with this. My one I used to practice with, is a scaffold pipe filled with lead. There is a great difference between cudgel and staff techniques and then spear. With a heavy and unbending cudgel, force and movement must be generated by technique and 'Jin'. Spear neads flexibility and really only one end is usually employed. Staff is thinner and longer and has some flex in it, comparatively.

 

I was reading some history ; a battle with Saracens  ( Saladin's mob)   a heavily armoured huge knight was cleaing up the Euros in a battle , they eventually downed him and killed him, they where amazed at the heaviness of his armour and said he was a giant . he had a huge iron lance that they said took  two of them to even lift it  .

 

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Geeze .... I hope people dont want to know where my money comes from    :o

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

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13 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

 At the moment I see visions of many Indian gurus, a lot of them frauds, enjoying driving around in Rolls Royces, tucking away millions under their beds while sometimes pleading poverty, while many of their followers live in terrible poverty. etc etc etc........... 

 

I don´t get a greedy guru vibe from Josh.  If he starts offering to sit in full lotus after receiving Paypal offerings, I´ll change my tune.

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31 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

Depends on what side of the fence you stand? At the moment I see visions of many Indian gurus, a lot of them frauds, enjoying driving around in Rolls Royces, tucking away millions under their beds while sometimes pleading poverty, while many of their followers live in terrible poverty. etc etc etc........... Most hermits live in caves or huts, have little or no compassion for anyone else, have very few possessions, some have no clothes at all. When I was in Asia I came across a hermits cave up in the mountains, it was just below a temple devoted to Quan Yin on a shear face. There was no room to park a Jag. Josh really has no choice but to be honest about his love of cars etc. Most people would brand him immediately as a fraud, (as they did), so he has in fact preempted that by coming out as being honest about his love of material possessions and this makes it somehow ok? Bill Porter wrote a book (Road to Heaven) about finding "hermits" in the mountains in China. I honestly don't think even stretching good humility and compassion, can we call Josh a 'hermit'. I think part of the problem is that he is fully attached mentally and physically to the material world and even when he says he lets go of ego in ceremonies he is just fooling himself. He is attached to the idea of ceremony and being dressed like being in a theatre performing Shakespeare. He appears to me to be a rich kid indulging himself in all that he wants and his passions and he makes excuses for himself for his lacking and by this, hopes to make an impact as a hermit on us the GP. Unfortunately he does remind me of a better version of Mak Jo Si without the swearing and the pretending that he knows something. My advice would be to leave all his material trappings and shave off his hair and spend a few years in a Buddhist monastery in somewhere like Thailand. He will then understand the nature of being poor and how many of his fellow humans even in the west struggle for survival on Boris Johnson's 'Universal Credit' and the reliance on food banks from churches etc.How people with no home live terrible lives on the streets. This will help him understand what the word compassion really means. It will help him to understand not being attached to the self and putting others first before his own needs. There can be no lame, even if honest excuses there.

It always gets me when people say it isn't ok to have material possessions. Why wouldn't it be ok? What's wrong with cars, clothes, thrones, fur coats, diamond-encrusted jackets, zebra trousers, pimp hats, tailcoats, snakeskin boots, brocade blazers, velvet trousers, Hanfu robes, feather fans, imperial hats...good God I've forgotten my point. 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I don´t get a greedy guru vibe from Josh.  If he starts offering to sit in full lotus after receiving Paypal offerings, I´ll change my tune.

Good Heavens no. 

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1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I´m betting he got it as a paid weather shaman for the Florida Citrus Growers Association. If it turns out I´m wrong and the money comes from an inheritance or trust fund of some kind, will you esteem him any less?  I won´t.  

Just to give you some perspective. I'm in a lot of Western Occult groups on Facebook. Guys and girls on there making serious money from "long-distance rituals" Some of them charge upwards of 800 Dollars for a single working. You really can make a career out of magick but you are forever enslaved to the process. People expect you to behave in a certain way, to be serious and brooding. I don't care about my reputation very much nor do I care if people take me seriously or not, that kind of thinking isn't compatible with the BALG forums. You are either in or out. Not many Occultists laugh, let alone at themselves. Unlike most of them, I have many hobbies outside of magick such as horse riding, seeing fashion shows, and video editing. I respect that these people have to earn a living and put food on the table but I'm blessed that I'm not one of them. Hence, if people ridicule me, it doesn't amount to anything other than an opportunity for me to show off. I'm the Liberace of the Occult community. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Josh Allen said:

Family, the money is not my own. 

 

Gosh wish I had a family with lots of dosh, I wouldn't have to keep working my backside off just to pay the bills!;)

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10 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

 

Gosh wish I had a family with lots of dosh, I wouldn't have to keep working my backside off just to pay the bills!;)

 

Yeah, but you´d have to deal with weird judgments from strangers on the internet every time you bought a pimp suit.

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1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Yeah, but you´d have to deal with weird judgments from strangers on the internet every time you bought a pimp suit.

Aint that the truth. 

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32 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

For better or worse, in many communities a Daoist is anyone who proclaims themselves to be one.  Usually what happens is someone reads a book or two, feels an affinity for the philosophy, and voila.  Traditionalists may quake but ya can´t fight it.  The who-is-a-Jew question is not any less murky, btw.  Orthodox Jews are loathe to accept the jewishness of Reform converts.  

 

Many communities (I'm guessing Sedona being at the top of the list :P), perhaps, but typically not Daoist ones. 

 

The analogy about Judaism isn't meant to be perfect, just to illustrate a point. I'll try to find better ones.

 

9 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I think that real identity -- Daoist, Jewish, whathaveyou -- transcends prescriptive conventional boundaries. It´s a matter of soul. 

 

Sure, if we can transcend the later heaven, duality-driven existence of mundane humans, it seems likely we will also transcend conventional boundaries.

 

That is if, and when.

 

Till that glorious day, identities do serve a purpose in this realm, which any encounter with the TSA or border agents is a reminder of.

 

9 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Otherwise, what´s the point? 

 

Good question.

 

The answer is transmission of the teachings from one generation to the next.

 

That is a huge, important point.

 

So: Saying one is a Daoist, in the sense of the various Chinese words that become this English word, indicates that one has been accepted by an elder in the previous generation and taught by that elder.

 

But why is it a "huge, important point" in this day and age when we have so many wonderful books, YouTube teachers, podcasts, and forums where we can study Daoism openly and for free without going through the trouble of an initiation, something that might just be the leftover dregs of Chinese civilization anyway, and therefore irrelevant or even antithetical to "the Way?"

 

That would be another good question, and also one with an answer.

 

The answer is: despite the current proliferation of "open" resources, quite amazingly, the inner teachings of Daoism do indeed still remain "inner," by which I mean well guarded secrets. Even Chinese language sources do not spill the beans, and far less does what you can find in English. It is still in this day imperative to have a real teacher to reveal the teachings which are designed to help a student find Dao. If this comment makes no sense, then I can only shrug and presume you've not likely glimpsed what remains kept behind closed doors. Perhaps someday. 

 

So yes, "Daoist" is an identity, sure--one that signifies where its holder stands with regards a body of teachings. While merely saying "Daoist" cannot tell you how experienced and accomplished a person is, it does tell you the person has walked through one or more of certain doors. Thus, this is not really an identity in the sense of "I feel like I've lived here long enough that the city is a part of me, now I'm a New Yorker" or "my parents had me baptized when I was an infant so I'm Christian" or "I really like Star Wars so I wear a cloak for fun and say I follow the Jedi code" or "I feel a certain way about my sexuality/gender/race/ethnicity/age/generation/etc, so this or that label fits me best."

 

It's more like an identity in the sense of "I matriculated at Yale, therefore I'm a Yaley." You can't just feel like a Yaley if the school never let you in, and even that's not enough--you have to go. Luckily, finding a teacher in Daoism does not require $40,000 of tuition a year and great SAT scores (or the last name Bush). But it still takes hard work for most people.

 

Sadly, many people do not understand this or cannot accept this for whatever reason. Therefore they miss out on things they could have learned if they found the door and then asked to enter it. Moreover, if they make a loud enough racket, they potentially confuse a great many people, like Castaneda, Tuesday Lobsang Tampa, Osho, and too many other people with the gift of gab to name (including many YouTube meditation "masters" currently plying their trade). 

 

This is why my analogy, if you read carefully, is about rabbis, not Jews. Rabbis don't merely have a certain religious identity, they are accepted into a long lineage of teachers and given tasks and responsibilities.

 

This confusion really does not exist in China and Taiwan and one does not hear this conversation being chewed over time and time  again. Perhaps confusion is more common here because westerners are not so used to initiatory rites. Another way to think about this, then, is by comparing it to Freemasonry. Nobody says "I feel like I am a Freemason, therefore I am" or "the ghost of Thomas Jefferson told me I am a Freemason, so I am." 

 

Most of us know as little of Freemasonry as we do of Daoism, but the need to be initiated in order to qualify as a Mason is well understood by almost everybody in the west.

 

Similarly, the need to be initiated by a master in order to become a Daoist is common knowledge in China, Taiwan, Malaysia, Indonesia, and other Chinese communities.

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4 hours ago, Nungali said:

... as he didnt charge money for teachings .    ;)

 

To be clear, I meant money to be spent on travel and learning a language.

 

I've barely spent any money on Daoist teachings (martial arts and Chinese medicine were expensive to study, though, but I learned those from other people). In fact... Two of my teachers have given me money, quite a lot of it. I'm embarrassed to say that, but I add the comment to dispel any notions that one must have big money to have a teacher. Money is not necessary, because the currency of this tradition is sincerity.

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4 hours ago, Lord Josh Allen said:

It always gets me when people say it isn't ok to have material possessions. Why wouldn't it be ok? What's wrong with cars, clothes, thrones, fur coats, diamond-encrusted jackets, zebra trousers, pimp hats, tailcoats, snakeskin boots, brocade blazers, velvet trousers, Hanfu robes, feather fans, imperial hats...good God I've forgotten my point. 

 

 

 

 I will have a go at this one .

 

What is wrong with cars, clothes, thrones, fur coats, diamond-encrusted jackets, zebra trousers, pimp hats, tailcoats, snakeskin boots, brocade blazers, velvet trousers, Hanfu robes, feather fans, imperial hats is that .... with all that going on, one is likely to  forget what the point of  it all is .

 

 

:)

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@Walker

 

I´m sympathetic to all the points you make.  Obviously Lord Allen Josh isn´t a Daoist in the sense you mean.  Obviously I´m not.  But many people are going to use these terms loosely.  Arguably, that´s a harmful thing, a confusing thing, maybe an uneducated and disrespectful thing.  It´s also an undeniable reality.  Even if you convince LJA to use the term Daoist in the more restrictive sense you prefer, even if you convince every member and guest of TDB likewise, you will not stem the cultural tide.  I suggest tolerance.

Edited by liminal_luke

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3 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Yeah, but you´d have to deal with weird judgments from strangers on the internet every time you bought a pimp suit.

 

Only if you showed it  off to strangers on the internet   :)

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9 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

@Walker

 

I´m sympathetic to all the points you make.  Obviously Lord Allen Josh isn´t a Daoist in the sense you mean.  Obviously I´m not.  But many people are going to use these terms loosely.  Arguably, that´s a harmful thing, a confusing thing, maybe an uneducated and disrespectful thing.  It´s also an undeniable reality.  Even if you convince LAJ to use the term Daoist in the more restrictive sense you prefer, even if you convince every member and guest of TDB likewise, you will not stem the cultural tide.  I suggest tolerance.

 

Please contemplate this one for a few days. I wonder whether your conscience is trying to tell you something that has leaked into your own words.

 

As for whether or not I stem any tide, that is not a goal of mine.

 

I offer a differing voice, that seekers who have stumbled into this thread might hear what I was told, by those who patiently explained these things to me, regardless of what tides were swirling around them.

 

The goal, then, is to allow people to make more informed decisions, on the basis of hearing opinions not easy to come across outside of Chinese communities, in English.

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2 minutes ago, Walker said:

 

Please contemplate this one for a few days. I wonder whether your conscience is trying to tell you something that has leaked into your own words.

 

 

Considering my many shortcomings and misdeeds, the possible misuse of Daoist nomenclature isn´t remotely a priority.   

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43 minutes ago, Walker said:

 

To be clear, I meant money to be spent on travel and learning a language.

 

I've barely spent any money on Daoist teachings (martial arts and Chinese medicine were expensive to study, though, but I learned those from other people). In fact... Two of my teachers have given me money, quite a lot of it. I'm embarrassed to say that, but I add the comment to dispel any notions that one must have big money to have a teacher. Money is not necessary, because the currency of this tradition is sincerity.

 

Yeah . I wrote that in relation to my often repeated comment  on these pages ;

 

as soon as you start charging money for it    ( martial arts ,  'magical teachings'   , 'sitting in lotus' ) ..... its all downhill from there .

 

Worse if you are trying to do it to 'make a living ' or have a book out on it .     Its all about  ' buying my book' , I'm better ... etc etc .

 

Ho hum    

 

 Our teacher had no 'HQ' , no sign , no related 'business' ,  we dont even have a name to call it .   Yet well known and expensive  'experts' from all over the world  would come to learn from him . A lot of the time he was 'too busy' for them .   But others .... teach  teach teach , and then take them out and immerse them in all  sorts of things related to his native culture . .  . .   and make you help in his catering business .   But , if you where " not here to roll Sushi ! " -  bye  bye .

 

But yes, it would cost a lot to  fly there .   

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24 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

@Walker

 

I´m sympathetic to all the points you make.  Obviously Lord Allen Josh isn´t a Daoist in the sense you mean.  Obviously I´m not.  But many people are going to use these terms loosely.  Arguably, that´s a harmful thing, a confusing thing, maybe an uneducated and disrespectful thing.  It´s also an undeniable reality.  Even if you convince LJA to use the term Daoist in the more restrictive sense you prefer, even if you convince every member and guest of TDB likewise, you will not stem the cultural tide.  I suggest tolerance.


I don’t get a vibe of intolerance from @Walker, i get the vibe of a guy trying to talk to his neighbor who loves USC football and wears Trojan jerseys during the Rose Bowl and drinks out of USC mugs as a big time fan who knows the history and roots for the team, but he still hasn’t had his application processed because he hasn’t even applied to get into USC yet.

 

Not a problem because he is still welcome to hang at tailgate parties and watch them demolish UCLA at the sports bar with a few beers, and fun to chat with; he just isn’t a team member, let alone a student enrolled at USC yet. 
 

Again, he’s welcome by me and I’m seeing Walker welcomes him but is just being informative, not intolerant.

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@Earl Grey @Walker

 

Please understand.  When I said to Walker "I suggest tolerance" I wasn´t trying to cast asperions on Walker´s character.  Maybe it´s a subtle difference, but I didn´t mean to call Walker intolerent.  

 

Walker -- I respect your knowledge and opinions.  I´m glad you are here and feel I can learn a lot from you.  I know you take your Daoism seriously and I appreciate that seriousness.  

 

I´m serious about my own spiritual path too.  I don´t call myself a Daoist however.  The most I´d say about myself is that I am engaged in some Daoist practices.

 

My musings about the use of the word "Daoism" are offered casually, conversationally.  Mostly I guess I wanted to support Josh.  Seems to me he´s been very candid and upfront about who he is and isn´t, and didn´t deserve the heckling he got here.  Sure, he´s not a wandering hermit, not a sage.  Then again, he isn´t claiming otherwise.  I think he´s a Bum in process, much like myself.  It´s possible that at some point that the cars and the clothes won´t mean what they mean to him today. He might look back on his videos and feel embarrassed that he ever presumed to call himself a Daoist.  Or maybe not.  I just hope that there´s a place here on the board for people at all levels of spiritual development.  So yeah, I suggest tolerance.  My conscious is clear in doing so.  At the same time, I respect those who have put more time and effort into this path than I.  Please don´t think otherwise.   

Edited by liminal_luke
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You said something back here that interested me:

 

10 hours ago, Lord Josh Allen said:

I've met hundreds of people over the years, from all cultures, backgrounds, and creeds, they have a connection to Kongming just as I do. Their relationship with him is just as legitimate as mine. Maybe they don't feel the weather magick connection but the voice is still present. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

This leads me to ask, how do you recognize these people when you met them, how do they recognize you, and how do you confirm about the voice?  They  may be from many creeds and backgrounds, but it must be a very small percentage of the population, as even one percent of the world population would give as seventy-seven or so million people and then I think we would have all heard of this type of connection.

 

Thank you in advance for your clarification on this matter,

 

ZYD

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20 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

@Earl Grey @Walker

 

Please understand.  When I said to Walker "I suggest tolerance" I wasn´t trying to cast asperions on Walker´s character.  Maybe it´s a subtle difference, but I didn´t mean to call Walker intolerent.  

 

Walker -- I respect your knowledge and opinions.  I´m glad you are here and feel I can learn a lot from you.  I know you take your Daoism seriously and I appreciate that seriousness.  

 

I´m serious about my own spiritual path too.  I don´t call myself a Daoist however.  The most I´d say about myself is that I am engaged in some Daoist practices.

 

My musings about the use of the word "Daoism" are offered casually, conversationally.  Mostly I guess I wanted to support Josh.  Seems to me he´s been very candid and upfront about who he is and isn´t, and didn´t deserve the heckling he got here.  Sure, he´s not a wandering hermit, not a sage.  Then again, he isn´t claiming otherwise.  I think he´s a Bum in process, much like myself.  It´s possible that at some point that the cars and the clothes won´t mean what they mean to him today. He might look back on his videos and feel embarrassed that he ever presumed to call himself a Daoist.  Or maybe not.  I just hope that there´s a place here on the board for people at all levels of spiritual development.  So yeah, I suggest tolerance.  My conscious is clear in doing so.  At the same time, I respect those who have put more time and effort into this path than I.  Please don´t think otherwise.   


That IS the point I’m making! Even non-team or non-students who still root for USC are welcome to the same sports bar to hang out. They aren’t students or team members, but they are still welcome.

 

Or is my analogy Bruined by the fact I’m from UCLA? 😜

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3 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:


That IS the point I’m making! Even non-team or non-students who still root for USC are welcome to the same sports bar to hang out. They aren’t students or team members, but they are still welcome.

 

Or is my analogy Bruined by the fact I’m from UCLA? 😜

 

Sports analogies usually go over my head, but I think I get you.  Seems like a pretty accurate analogy to me.

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