Zhuangzi commentaries

[SirPalomides]

I’ve started reading Brook Ziporyn’s edition of Zhuangzi, with selections from traditional commentaries, and the selections are really brilliant. I’ve always loved Zhuangzi but this makes the reading more enjoyable.

 

From Wang Fuzhi’s commentary on Zhuangzi, chapter 1:

“For us forms lodged here between heaven and earth there is only this wandering, this play, and nothing besides. It makes no difference how large or small: each stops only where it finds itself. Going forth but without any plan, coming back but not to any dwelling place—this is what it means to be free of dependence: not leaning on things to establish some identity for oneself, not leaning on projects to establish some merit for oneself, not leaning on actualities to establish some name for oneself. Large and small alike come to rest in the middle of Heaven the Potter’s Wheel and thus each wanders far and unfettered. 'Unfettered' means echoing beyond the dissolving tones—forgetting what has passed. 'Far' means pulled into the distance — not limited to the understanding consciousness. Hence, the theories of things can be made equal, the ruling force of life nourished, the physical form forgotten but its Virtuosity fulfilled, the world entered but its harm kept at bay, things responded to in a manner worthy of a true sovereign so that the empire comes to order. All are ways of attunement with the great source, forgetting both life and death. All can be wandered in — indeed, all are nothing but this wandering.”

[lrn2livorlive2lrn]

wang fuzhi understanding and my understanding of what zhuangzi was saying are pretty congruent. Good to know

 

I wish humans default to the way, but we seem to be natural dao obscurers/complicators

[Mig]

On 12/1/2019 at 9:44 AM, lrn2livorlive2lrn said:

wang fuzhi understanding and my understanding of what zhuangzi was saying are pretty congruent. Good to know

 

I wish humans default to the way, but we seem to be natural dao obscurers/complicators

I remember telling my young kids, don't make it complicated, it is already complicated, but for whatever reasons, it was always complicated. I guess discipline, learning the hard way and education are always necessary. My $0.02

[whocoulditbe?]

At some point I need to read the commentary by Guo Xiang (the guy who redacted the current version of the Zhuangzi). There's a translation by Richard John Lynn.

[Mig]

On 7/30/2023 at 5:51 AM, whocoulditbe? said:

At some point I need to read the commentary by Guo Xiang (the guy who redacted the current version of the Zhuangzi). There's a translation by Richard John Lynn.

Why 郭象: Guō Xiàng commentary is important to read and understand 

莊 子 Zhuang zi? Aren't most of the translations based on his commentary? 

[Taoist Texts]

8 hours ago, Mig said:

Aren't most of the translations based on his commentary? 

no, none of them are based on his commentary. all of them are based on ZZ itself in Guo's redaction 

8 hours ago, Mig said:

Why 郭象: Guō Xiàng commentary is important to read and understand 莊 子 Zhuang zi?

it is not important per se. the only reason why it could be somewhat interesting is that Guo butchered ZZ from 50 to 30 chapters, so peeps read Guo trying to guess what is it that he cut out. Otherwise his commentary is meaningless paraphrasing of ZZ

[Mig]

18 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

no, none of them are based on his commentary. all of them are based on ZZ itself in Guo's redaction 

it is not important per se. the only reason why it could be somewhat interesting is that Guo butchered ZZ from 50 to 30 chapters, so peeps read Guo trying to guess what is it that he cut out. Otherwise his commentary is meaningless paraphrasing of ZZ

So tell me, all the translations we read all over, the Watson, Graham, Meir, Féng yǒu lán 冯友兰, etc., are those translations directly from the original, whatever is consider original, or shall we read by commentaries as the one Ziporyn did? If I understand correctly, one has to read each chapter and try to make sense with the way of thinking and the way it is understood today by whichever arbitrary comment. Or is there something else I am missing? It seems that in each story of each chapter there is more to ponder and understand and many thoughts are already in the Chinese mind as opposed to those who grew up thinking that death is a curse or that we are going to heaven or hell or if I hope I maybe reach my dream, etc.

[Taoist Texts]

3 hours ago, Mig said:

So tell me, all the translations we read all over, the Watson, Graham, Meir, Féng yǒu lán 冯友兰, etc., are those translations directly from the original, whatever is consider original,

they are all from the original

3 hours ago, Mig said:

or shall we read by commentaries as the one Ziporyn did?

no, we should not. commentaries do not add anything to the original. you can read Guo's commentary in regular font and ZZ's original in bold here https://cup.columbia.edu/book/zhuangzi/9780231123877 as you see Guo is merely paraphrasing

3 hours ago, Mig said:

It seems that in each story of each chapter there is more to ponder and understand and many thoughts are already in the Chinese mind

no not really. what you see is what you get. its all there in black and white on the page. no Chinese mind necessary. if you formulate a question regarding a story i can answer it for you if you wish

4 hours ago, Mig said:

those who grew up thinking that death is a curse or that we are going to heaven or hell or if I hope I maybe reach my dream, etc.

this is what ZZ also thinks. but he also proposes a way to do something about those issues

[wandelaar]

https://www.google.nl/books/edition/Zhuangzi/sotIEAAAQBAJ?hl=nl&gbpv=1&dq=Zhuangzi++++A+New+Translation+of+the+Sayings+of+Master+Zhuang+as+Interpreted+by+Guo+Xiang&printsec=frontcover

[Cobie]

 

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… commentaries do not add anything to the original. …

Exactly. 

 

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… no Chinese mind necessary. …

Exactly. 

 

Edited yesterday at 05:12 PM by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

12 hours ago, Mig said:

… the Chinese mind as opposed to those who grew up thinking that death is a curse or that we are going to heaven or hell or if I hope I maybe reach my dream, etc.

 

Lol, “ the Chinese mind”  versus those who grew up thinking that: 

- “death is a curse”. Sure, that’s why the Chinese looove using the character 四 (sarcasm alert).

- “heaven or hell”. Sorry to disappoint you but the Chinese also had/have the concepts heaven and hell.

- “reach my dream”. Sure, the Chinese are renowned for being slackers (sarcasm alert).

 

 

Edited yesterday at 06:07 PM by Cobie

[Mig]

9 hours ago, wandelaar said:

https://www.google.nl/books/edition/Zhuangzi/sotIEAAAQBAJ?hl=nl&gbpv=1&dq=Zhuangzi++++A+New+Translation+of+the+Sayings+of+Master+Zhuang+as+Interpreted+by+Guo+Xiang&printsec=frontcover

Thanks for sharing. Do you have any feedback reading his translation and do you see any difference if you have read Watson or Mair?

[wandelaar]

2 minutes ago, Mig said:

Thanks for sharing. Do you have any feedback reading his translation and do you see any difference if you have read Watson or Mair?

 

I don't have Lynn's translation yet, but I may well buy it. As you can see on Google Books the translation is preceded by an extended introduction. I think knowing the cultural background of a text (particularly when it's a very old text) is essential for understanding, so the introduction might well be worth reading. But at the moment I just don't know if reading the book as a whole is worth the effort. Maybe later.

[Mig]

11 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

they are all from the original

no, we should not. commentaries do not add anything to the original. you can read Guo's commentary in regular font and ZZ's original in bold here https://cup.columbia.edu/book/zhuangzi/9780231123877 as you see Guo is merely paraphrasing

no not really. what you see is what you get. its all there in black and white on the page. no Chinese mind necessary. if you formulate a question regarding a story i can answer it for you if you wish

this is what ZZ also thinks. but he also proposes a way to do something about those issues

Alors là, tu m'épates , sacré Jean-Paul, what ZZ proposes?

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, Mig said:

Alors là, tu m'épates , sacré Jean-Paul, what ZZ proposes?

to be useless, of course

to take it easy

[Mig]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

to be useless, of course

to take it easy

The link for to take it easy is highlighted "wife", is that correct?

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Mig said:

The link for to take it easy is highlighted "wife", is that correct?

that is exactly correct. the lesson to be learned from it is still 'taking it easy' tho

i used wife simply to find stories about family life as most relatable to all of us

Edited 10 hours ago by Taoist Texts

[Cobie]

11 hours ago, Mig said:

… what ZZ proposes?

metempsychosis