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About lrn2livorlive2lrn

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  1. Zhuangzi commentaries

    wang fuzhi understanding and my understanding of what zhuangzi was saying are pretty congruent. Good to know I wish humans default to the way, but we seem to be natural dao obscurers/complicators
  2. Daoism as a Practical Philosophy

    I was just trying to say that.. there’s some sentiment that the practicality of following “the way” is just a bi product and not the focus. Depending on who or even what part of what you’re reading in one of the old books, there seems to be shifting focus ranging from strong detachment, philosophical/practical manipulation of situation, “internal alchemy”. .
  3. Daoism as a Practical Philosophy

    So we can say kinda at odds with the “practical philosophy” mindset.. I get different ideas and feelings about this from different people and things I read, seems like some days people are more interested in entertaining the world that most of us have to live In and other times riding that detachment train. This why I say ultimately it would be clouds practical philosophy influence by daoism. You’re kind of saying that the the goal is not the unintentional outcome of things practically working out?. I think the old writings and New often promote both aspects. That deeper sentiment is there though
  4. Daoism as a Practical Philosophy

    And knowing this can free you from “yourself”, I think. Then you are getting out of your way
  5. Daoism as a Practical Philosophy

    So understand things then align them so they’re in the path of least resistance?.. practical daoist? i think I could say this but if I didn’t elaborate someone reading this who didn’t have the same understanding would miss out on what I intended. I could be grumpy and just say.. pay attention! This is probably a big source for a lot of variation in thinking. Simply expressed concepts that are not so simple in their ramifications. It is kinda entertaining that it’s a bit of a puzzle that keeps on giving. I guess it again up to you
  6. Daoism as a Practical Philosophy

    Honestly it’s pretty amazing that over 2000 years ago they weren’t just saying a bunch of culturally predjudiced shit and question things you wouldn’t think someone from that time would. I guess I’m just too focused on the overall outlook. I think most people do these kind of things in their life though. Experience and awareness lead understanding. Life is dynamic Pay attention. If I had a practical philosophy it would say something like this. You often prevent sticking by heating the pan to cooking temperature before adding oil before adding the food. .. It illustrates the dynamics. The pan,the heat, the oil, the food, the time and if it doesn’t work out the soaking in water amongst other things. Many things are like this,Nice
  7. Daoism as a Practical Philosophy

    Sorry, I was meaning generally cause I see it mentioned throughout this thread by different people. I’m not going to be much help in the on topic discussion but I am interested. I wish I had a cool avacado story..i think I’ve heard Derek lin talk about this kinda stuff on YouTube. I’m just a baby grasping
  8. Daoism as a Practical Philosophy

    I don’t think it’s fair that we say it goes nowhere because he’s coming at it from a “western approach”. it can go somewhere and it does all the time with so many things in life. It’s just another method of probing life for understanding. It’s the end result‘ what you do with that which is really the issue. Your inquiry can be false or unclear or have no enough information or... What I mean by end result is when you take that limited knowledge and cement it into right and wrong and true and false. the “logical” or “scientific” or whatever organized inquiry is useful for gathering information which might help you understand. AND it may not, AND it might lead you down the wrong path. We’re all probing in the dark.. the potential insight should be interesting and considered. It seems other than having his mind kinda made up Cloud is still making this valid point that we should inquire about what we think or believe or perceive then there’s the benefit of sharing understanding, experience and ideas with others which is worthy in itself sometimes even if We don’t get too far..
  9. Daoism as a Practical Philosophy

    I don’t see anything wrong with perusing both sides here. The problem is you can’t know, you can only sense or have evidence . It’s a personal choice. Sometimes choices get us a little entrenched I feel it but I don’t label it..i let it be. at this time not an interest to me to have an explanation or anything,but that’s just me Im ok just experiencing. With things I can’t know, I’ll know when I know or I won’t. I think it will be ok. I do like that this thread isn’t just pure mudslinging. It’s good to think about what you think sometimes... all sides
  10. Daoism as a Practical Philosophy

    with all these things that have been said.... it would be cool to hear what you make of these opinions cloud
  11. Daoism as a Practical Philosophy

    Been doing some thinking....It seems like you’re going to have a whole lot of different ideas about this thing “daoism” because 1. The writers don’t say the exact same thing. They say similar things but I bet they would disagree on things. Small differences can be made large over time 2. THen there’s understanding of terms.. I’m assuming there are different lineages that have subtle but important differences in the meaning of what is being said. 3. There’s also cultural and translation issues. There are translations of LZ and bits of zhuangzi that (to me) seem to almost detract from the sentiment I get overall. In translating you basically give the person a new voice and also a new emphasis. I cannot know what is the original voice or emphasis, I can try but I can not know what details are missing from a 2000 year old translation let alone one that has been translated into modern English. I can only know what is true in my experience. my personal view and what I feel to some extent is expressed in zhuangzi is...... you as a human are out of touch out of sync with the world because you are some point we may have been less abstract... but now most humans are intense abstract machines pumping out categories groups concepts indentity totally detached from “natural influence“ essentially in our own culturally created reality. This leads us to get in our own way and in the way of understanding certain things in life. Another way to look at it would be this creates pulling in ways that lead to conflict,have little basis in truth , have a certain agenda which aren’t helpful to ourselves but maybe to our abstraction ,group, identity, IMO even if we lived very much under the influence of natural events we would still have a level of unique abstraction from group to group. There’s also an issue of “our nature” I think there’s probably a bit of inherent species specific social, hormonal/emotional and identity/personal safety instinct which definitely cloud judgment . So one outlook ,which does make sense , is to just “go with the flow” With this there’s going to be a bunch of opinions on how to do that. I’m not very clear on whose opinion is what but I hear different sentiments. Like if you shut up and go with the flow you’ll be going the way.. yes the way of abstract humans. This does simply illustrate the idea that if you let things play out you avoid conflict. But what if you’re curious about life and understanding? It’s hard to get that understanding sticking in your one group in your house,in your one abstract human culture. Not so dynamic not so much understanding. What I get from zhuangzi is you want throw yourself into life openly so you can hear the perspectives with as little BS hang ups as possible and he’s talking serious detachment because the bias runs deep. You don’t want to be CLINGING to someone else’s identity trying to make it your own. You want to FOLLOW what you find is true and let it remain open,not create more BS so I see it as being more of a process or outlook then a practical philosophy but idk why you couldnt take what you learn turn it into a system or principles for yourself.. but then I think this is Flirting with going back to where you’s really up to you... anyone who thinks I’m way off let me know, I’m learning...
  12. Daoism as a Practical Philosophy

    Pretty new to seriously thinking about daoism and really don’t know any of the practices. It’s good to hear that this is actually something. I agree with the idea that it helps you understand the greater dao.. or Atleast it makes you appreciate that you don’t know... not closing the door keeps you open.. it literally takes a life time or a a really great thinker to get to zhuangzi level, I think. You really appreciate that after it starts clicking. I know that I’m not a slouch in the critical thinking department but it took me a good while, to be sick of the BS in my life, and some moral conflicts to get over myself and see things through that clearer outlook. Your description is my experience. Thanks
  13. Daoism as a Practical Philosophy

    I think it takes some serious studying, organizing trial and error to get to the point of having a "solid practical philosophy" which consistently holds to some given principals. Another vote for experience being the best or ?easiest? way to realize something in practice. Problem solving forces you to be present and desire to understand situations will bring you deeper than you normally would. For me being a third or fourth party in a conflict has also made things clearer about how we as people tend to act and get in our own way. Like when you realize you dont have to be right... you're not right because you tell yourself you're right or multiple people can be right in a situation. Probing situations for the "truth" of the situation not just stopping at one solution and closing the door
  14. Daoism as a Practical Philosophy

    Sometimes ...a lot of the time... You don't even know you're in you own way. Sometimes you're born into a socially complicated world.. I agree that if you can many times shutting up and using intuition is perfect. There are alt of times that depend on the person (their upbringing or society, insecurity, expectations responsibilities) long list of things that call you to get in the way of yourself., Of understanding/seeing things. Takes work, but the result I would say is helpful in daily life..