The Art of War

[ChiDragon]

13 hours ago, Kojiro said:

this is not true, the end justifies the means in the art of war, according to Sun Tzu. War is based on deception and cunning, and it is fought just because the ruler orders it, whatever his reasons may be

What you are saying is the process of the war but not the result.  It is the intention of the war that determines the legality of the war.

[Kojiro]

The war is fought because the emperor orders it, because for whatever reason is in his perceived interest to wage war.. The generals and the whole army just obey his orders.

[Mig]

On 7/23/2023 at 1:06 AM, Kojiro said:

The war is fought because the emperor orders it, because for whatever reason is in his perceived interest to wage war.. The generals and the whole army just obey his orders.

If that manual was used as a manual and with all the philosophical currents and the religious moralists, why didn't they stop the carnage, looting and destruction from what we know in China history. What's so new about that little booklet?

[ChiDragon]

On 7/22/2023 at 12:38 AM, Kojiro said:

War is based on deception and cunning,

This is a process for psychological warfare. It is a strategic method to make the opponents to believe what you want them to believe and fall into the trap. There are lots of hidden secretes in the art of war to win a war. It is a matter of interpretation and application. Misinterpretation and misapplication will not help to win the war but lost. If someone tried to interpret it as one thinks, then, one has missing the whole point of what Sun Tze was called for.

[Daniel]

On 7/20/2023 at 9:40 PM, Taoist Texts said:

it says 'exhaust' which only happens if enemy's efforts fall into a void not into a battle.

 

in general the translations you quote are peppered by mistakes

 

Do you like the Giles translation?  Do you feel like it Is consistently translating in harmony with the intention of the author?

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Do you like the Giles translation?  Do you feel like it Is consistently translating in harmony with the intention of the author?

not really. On one hand the text is a very simple one so any translation would do for an average reader. On the other hand Giles simply does not understand Sun-zi's paradigm.  E g:

Quote

In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.

but Sun  says:

孙子曰：凡用兵之法，全国为上，破国次之；全旅为上，破旅次之；全卒为上，破卒次之；全伍为上，破伍次之。是故百战百胜，非善之善者也；不战而屈人之兵，善之善者也。

Always In the method of using the army the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's to keep your own country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an to keep your own army entire than to destroy it, to capture a to keep your own regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.

[Daniel]

46 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

not really. On one hand the text is a very simple one so any translation would do for an average reader. On the other hand Giles simply does not understand Sun-zi's paradigm.  E g:

but Sun  says:

孙子曰：凡用兵之法，全国为上，破国次之；全旅为上，破旅次之；全卒为上，破卒次之；全伍为上，破伍次之。是故百战百胜，非善之善者也；不战而屈人之兵，善之善者也。

Always In the method of using the army the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's to keep your own country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an to keep your own army entire than to destroy it, to capture a to keep your own regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.

 

I see.  

 

"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances"

 

From the end of the chapter "weak and strong", does it actually say "infinite variety"?

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Daniel

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances"

From the end of the chapter "weak and strong", does it actually say "infinite variety"?

it says 无穷    無窮    wú qióng    endless; boundless; inexhaustible
https://ctext.org/art-of-war/weak-points-and-strong/ens

[Kojiro]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

it says 无穷    無窮    wú qióng    endless; boundless; inexhaustible
https://ctext.org/art-of-war/weak-points-and-strong/ens

I can't read chinese, but I really like the Giles' translation because it makes the text simple. Cleary's translation is more difficult and less clear in my opinion. Which translation do you think it is best? Which one does catch the original Sun Tzu meaning?

[Taoist Texts]

55 minutes ago, Kojiro said:

Which translation do you think it is best? Which one does catch the original Sun Tzu meaning?

i would say all are fine on the getting the general message across. Mair is probably the best since Giles writes in antiquated english while Cleary is habitually vague. (I read only the Gile's one,  cursorily at that).

[Kojiro]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

i would say all are fine on the getting the general message across. Mair is probably the best since Giles writes in antiquated english while Cleary is habitually vague. (I read only the Gile's one,  cursorily at that).

the only problem of Giles' translation is his antiquated english? well i don't think that is even a problem. I like the clarity and simplicity of his text

Edited July 27, 2023 by Kojiro

[thelerner]

On 7/23/2023 at 3:06 AM, Kojiro said:

The war is fought because the emperor orders it, because for whatever reason is in his perceived interest to wage war.. The generals and the whole army just obey his orders.

I'm reminded of quote from a Cher movie called Moonstruck. It was something like.. the man is the head but the woman is the neck.  Or in this case, the emperor makes the decision but his advisors feed and spin information he gets.  

Sometimes the war is fought because that's the way the advisor turned the king's head.  

 

In all things we should ask, where is the bias, what is the most useful perspective?

[Daniel]

What's needed, IMO, are the reasons for going to war.  I did not see that in the translation I read.

[Kojiro]

10 hours ago, Daniel said:

What's needed, IMO, are the reasons for going to war.  I did not see that in the translation I read.

Sun Tzu doesn't get involved in that, he never questions if there should be good reasons or not. He was a general, his task was to fight when he was ordered to fight, not to ask questions to the ruler about why should we fight, much less to argue with him.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Kojiro

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Kojiro said:

Sun Tzu doesn't get involved in that, he never questions if there should be good reasons or not.

The art of war, then, is governed by five constant factors, ......... These are: (1) The Moral Law; ...

 

Therefore, in your deliberations,..... (1) Which of the two sovereigns is imbued with the Moral law?

 

1 hour ago, Kojiro said:

 not to ask questions to the ruler about why should we fight, much less to argue with him.

There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune upon his army: ...

 

 If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight, even though the ruler forbid it; if fighting will not result in victory, then you must not fight even at the ruler's bidding. 

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

The Moral Law; ... Which of the two sovereigns is imbued with the Moral law?

 

Thank you.

[Kojiro]

6 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

The art of war, then, is governed by five constant factors, ......... These are: (1) The Moral Law; ...

 

Therefore, in your deliberations,..... (1) Which of the two sovereigns is imbued with the Moral law?

 

There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune upon his army: ...

 

 If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight, even though the ruler forbid it; if fighting will not result in victory, then you must not fight even at the ruler's bidding. 

The moral law means exactly what I am trying to explain, it means that the people follow the ruler. This is explained in the first chapter of the book, if the ruler wants a war against another sovereign they just accept it and follow him (discrepancies are only in a technical way, as if it is better to fight a battle or not, or on how to fight it for best results, but under any circumstances there will be a questioning whether the war must be fought or not, this is the decision of the sovereign):

 

3. The art of war, then, is governed by five constant factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations, when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

4. These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth; (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.

5,6. The Moral Law causes the people to be in complete accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Kojiro

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Kojiro said:

The moral law means exactly what I am trying to explain, it means that the people follow the ruler.

sure, if you say so;)

[Kojiro]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

sure, if you say so;)

3. The art of war, then, is governed by five constant factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations, when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

4. These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth; (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.

5,6. The Moral Law causes the people to be in complete accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger.

[Daniel]

8 hours ago, Kojiro said:

The Moral Law causes the people to be in complete accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger.

 

Right!  The general should, at least, be perceived as acting in harmony with the moral law.  In my opinion, perception will always catch up to reality if the general is actually transgressing.  That is the nature of transgressing moral law.  But, I will avoid the temptation of setting up a pulpit and preaching about it.    

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by Daniel

[Kojiro]

Honestly, for me this moral law as understood by Sun Tzu is a slave belief system in which they are blindly following their ruler, that is what it is in my opinion

[Daniel]

12 hours ago, Kojiro said:

Honestly, for me this moral law as understood by Sun Tzu is a slave belief system in which they are blindly following their ruler, that is what it is in my opinion

 

That's interesting to me.  It's a completely different point of view from what I would expect.  I thank you for that.  Maybe I'll reread that section and apply what you're saying to it.

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Daniel

[ChiDragon]

On 7/26/2023 at 9:04 PM, Taoist Texts said:

not really. On one hand the text is a very simple one so any translation would do for an average reader. On the other hand Giles simply does not understand Sun-zi's paradigm.  E g:

but Sun  says:

孙子曰：凡用兵之法，全国为上，破国次之；全旅为上，破旅次之；全卒为上，破卒次之；全伍为上，破伍次之。是故百战百胜，非善之善者也；不战而屈人之兵，善之善者也。

Always In the method of using the army the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's to keep your own country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an to keep your own army entire than to destroy it, to capture a to keep your own regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.

May I translation this to my understanding.
孙子曰：凡用兵之法，Sun Tze says: In using the art of war,
全国为上，破国次之；To keep the country intact as a whole is the top choice. The opposite is second choice.
全旅为上，破旅次之；To keep the battalion intact as a whole is the top choice. The opposite is second choice.
全卒为上，破卒次之； To keep the soldier intact as a whole is the top choice. The opposite is second choice.
全伍为上，破伍次之。To keep the group intact as a whole is the top choice. The opposite is second choice.
是故百战百胜，非善之善者也；Therefore, even though wining all the wars, it is not ideal for a good warrior.
不战而屈人之兵，善之善者也。Defeating the enemy without engaging a fight, it is a good strategy for an experienced warrior.
 

What Sun Tze was suggesting, by saying all that, is to avoid a war by all means if possible.

Edited July 29, 2023 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

On 7/26/2023 at 9:50 PM, Daniel said:

 

I see.  

 

"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances"

 

From the end of the chapter "weak and strong", does it actually say "infinite variety"?

 

A tactic is only good for one victory for one enemy. It maybe repeated for anther opponent. Each situation is different from one to another. That is why it was said: " let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances"

[ChiDragon]

On 7/28/2023 at 2:15 AM, Taoist Texts said:

There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune upon his army: ...

 

 If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight, even though the ruler forbid it; if fighting will not result in victory, then you must not fight even at the ruler's bidding. 

Yes, you are do understand the art of war clearly. Sun Tze suggested that the ruler might not know the situation in the battle. It is better not to interfere with the strategy of the commander. The commander knows better how to handle the situation in his accord. However, in order, for the commander to fight the war most effectively, Sun Tze was strongly recommended to disregard any unreasonable order from the ruler.

Edited July 31, 2023 by ChiDragon