Taomeow

Sumer: the "black-headed" vs. the "red-faced"

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16 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Actually, there's quite a few biologically immortal species in nature.  Turritopsis dohrnii, also known as the immortal jellyfish, 

is an example, and in general,

 

Yes, thats the 'theory'  ; " Theoretically, this process can go on indefinitely, effectively rendering the jellyfish biologically immortal,[3][7] although in practice individuals can still die. "

 

and ;   " This definition of immortality has been challenged in the Handbook of the Biology of Aging,[1] because the increase in rate of mortality as a function of chronological age may be negligible at extremely old ages, an idea referred to as the late-life mortality plateau. The rate of mortality may cease to increase in old age, but in most cases that rate is typically very high."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_immortality

 

I suppose if they really where immortal , the Gods that cursed life with death must have missed the  jellyfish ?

 

 

16 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

if we don't insist on associating immortality with "complex" animals, it's fairly widespread.  And there's nothing to stop the gods from saying no specifically to complex animals, including their human pets.  How natural is nature? 

 

I'd say  nature is natural .   But thats just me .

 

 

16 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

How unnatural is the unnatural?

 

I would say  'pretty unnatural ' .   Human head trips unrelated to any process in nature seem unnatural to me . 

 

 

16 hours ago, Taomeow said:

  I had a very mind-opening discussion once with a taoist in China regarding the grey zones of this inquiry, but I don't want to interfere with my own thread by "going there" right now.

 

 

Spoiler

put it in a box  :)

 

 

16 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Your second paragraph is an article of faith.  

 

As is  the idea of ;   ' this imposition of death on humans by gods who don't choose it for themselves nor let humans choose.  '

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33 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I'd say  nature is natural .   But thats just me .

 

I used to think it's as simple as that too. 

 

A dam built by beavers is natural...  A monkey crushing a nut with a stone is natural...  A dog though?  Is a dog natural?..

 

And if it is, what makes it natural, considering it wasn't created by nature, but by human intervention into the fate of some wolves?  And if a dog is unnatural, how do we know if we ever lose information about early domestication -- say civilization collapses radically, taking all dogs with it (e.g. starving survivors eat their pets to extinction, or else an epidemic does them in) and a few thousand years later history that included dogs in it is forgotten?  To the same extent history is forgotten by now from the time of that Gilgamesh quote? 

 

Were there gods?  You confidently say "no."  Were there dogs?  Ask mainstream-educated posterity five thousand years from now and you might be surprised. "Dogs...  animals who lived with people, in their homes, and obeyed their commands?  Ridiculous."   They are "not 'life'  they are concepts, ideas  and forces, not having mortality." --© Nungali  

 

 

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Yes, a dog is natural . It fulfils my definition in that ,  they are comparable to to things or processes in nature ; the thing is canidae,  the process is  symbiosis    and the  development ( of BOTH   dog and human )  is  similar to  the process observed in  ethnobotany -  man developed and changed many plants , but in that process plants , their usage and effects , have  contributed to the development of modern man . 

 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/653816?seq=1

 

Regarding the 'disappearance of dogs '  ;

 

Mainstream-educated posterity five thousand years from now   will probably have access to even more fossil dogs than we do today .

https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/18/15992572/dog-genetics-archaeology-fossils-evolution-domestication-wolves

 

I tried looking up  fossils of the Gods  .... but no, not even an angel fossil .

 

 

- and by the way ,  I never said what you attribute to me ;  "     Were there gods?  You confidently say "no."  "

 

What I DID say was ;   " the Gods are immortal " . I also said  "  they are  concepts, ideas  and forces "    I also said that the Gods  are ; " not having mortality" - meaning  'immortal' . 

 

- Cant see me  " confidently saying "     ' There where no Gods'   there anywhere  at all   .    :huh:

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Anyway, back on topic   (sort of )   I have been talking with Dan Howard, an Aussie historian and author  and thought to post one of his comments here , on the subject if the  development of agriculture

 

" Yep. It was a gradual spiral. Initially, your gardens acted as a supplement to your other food sources. You think that they are pretty cool so start to clear more land for more gardens. Then you notice that there are unwanted plants growing in your gardens so think that instead of clearing more land, you just have to pull out all the weeds to make room for more of your own plants. Instead of being able to wander from place to place, you now have to stay around to keep the gardens weeded. But your population is growing so you eventually need to clear more land anyway and keep those weeded too. After a while you notice that your yields are starting to decline so pack up camp and move to a new location and start all over again. Then you notice that the plants grow better in places that have recently had a bushfire or had a bunch of animals come through and crap everywhere. So you start burning your fields after harvest and send the kids out to collect all the animal manure they can find. Now your plants are growing so well that the birds come to eat all the seeds you sowed and the local animals come around to eat the ripening crops before you get a chance to harvest them. So you put up fences and get the kids to chase away the birds. Then a rival tribe stumbles upon your gardens and steals all your food during the night. So you replace the fences with walls, post sentries, and build silos to keep your harvest inside the walls. Then you discover that those walls are stopping a lot of rainfall runoff so you have to divert water from the river to irrigate your crops. Then you discover that those irrigation channels silt up so have to be kept clear. So finally things are running smoothly and a plague of locusts swarm your fields and eat everything. When this happened before you could just move on to another area but now there are rival tribes in your way with their own gardens. You have been trading with them for a while so help each other out until next harvest. To stop another shortage you build bigger storage silos to store more food from the next harvest. But rodents find those silos and clean out your supplies of food and seed for next year. Now you go back to your neighbours and ask for help but the rodents ate their food too so they don't have any extra to trade. So your only options now are to steal their food or starve. But that tribe has been making weapons so that they can come and steal your food. So now you start raiding each other's land. You need more fighting men, some to leave at home for defence and some to take on raids. This goes on for a while but your population is still growing. You need more land for more farms. But all the land is occupied with rival tribes and their own farms. So now, instead of raiding, you plan to attack and stay there, subjugating that tribe and taking over their land. And they want to do the same to you. So you need more fighting men and you need them to train and patrol, which means that they can't feed themselves. So you smack around your farmers to make them give you some of their food. Now you need even more fighters so they can deal with both the enemy tribes and to keep your own people in line. This can't go on so you invent a religion that convinces your people that suffering is good and that their trials in this world are needed for them to have a great time in the afterlife. So now they not only have to give food to the fighters, but they also have to give food to the priests... " 

- Dan Howard .

 

....  then eventually

 

pexels-photo-2224665.jpeg?cs=srgb&dl=aerial-view-of-buildings-2224665.jpg&fm=jpg  90th-birthday-celebration-of-the-Chinese-Peoples-Liberation-Army-Inner-Mongolia-Autonomous-Region.jpg  img.jpg?width=980 

                                                                                                                                 (plastic veggie 'tunnels')

 

Edited by Nungali
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On 2/26/2020 at 3:43 AM, Nungali said:

I think the imposition of death from the Gods is a farce .   Look at nature , what is immortal , look at humans , they are a part of nature , so why should they be immune to death ?

 

Besides, the 'Gods' are immortal because they are not 'life'  they are  concepts, ideas  and forces , not having mortality.  

 

 

 

deserves its own thread ... though I would say people these days have fallen into the idea that 'ideas' are dead abstract things with no energy of their own - also the modern mind while being comfortable with physical processes, abstract thought and some concept of the absolute, will run a mile at any thought of entities or intelligences in this universe.

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12 hours ago, Nungali said:

Anyway, back on topic   (sort of )   I have been talking with Dan Howard, an Aussie historian and author  and thought to post one of his comments here , on the subject if the  development of agriculture

 

" Yep. It was a gradual spiral. Initially, your gardens acted as a supplement to your other food sources. You think that they are pretty cool so start to clear more land for more gardens. Then you notice that there are unwanted plants growing in your gardens so think that instead of clearing more land, you just have to pull out all the weeds to make room for more of your own plants. Instead of being able to wander from place to place, you now have to stay around to keep the gardens weeded. But your population is growing so you eventually need to clear more land anyway and keep those weeded too. After a while you notice that your yields are starting to decline so pack up camp and move to a new location and start all over again. Then you notice that the plants grow better in places that have recently had a bushfire or had a bunch of animals come through and crap everywhere. So you start burning your fields after harvest and send the kids out to collect all the animal manure they can find. Now your plants are growing so well that the birds come to eat all the seeds you sowed and the local animals come around to eat the ripening crops before you get a chance to harvest them. So you put up fences and get the kids to chase away the birds. Then a rival tribe stumbles upon your gardens and steals all your food during the night. So you replace the fences with walls, post sentries, and build silos to keep your harvest inside the walls. Then you discover that those walls are stopping a lot of rainfall runoff so you have to divert water from the river to irrigate your crops. Then you discover that those irrigation channels silt up so have to be kept clear. So finally things are running smoothly and a plague of locusts swarm your fields and eat everything. When this happened before you could just move on to another area but now there are rival tribes in your way with their own gardens. You have been trading with them for a while so help each other out until next harvest. To stop another shortage you build bigger storage silos to store more food from the next harvest. But rodents find those silos and clean out your supplies of food and seed for next year. Now you go back to your neighbours and ask for help but the rodents ate their food too so they don't have any extra to trade. So your only options now are to steal their food or starve. But that tribe has been making weapons so that they can come and steal your food. So now you start raiding each other's land. You need more fighting men, some to leave at home for defence and some to take on raids. This goes on for a while but your population is still growing. You need more land for more farms. But all the land is occupied with rival tribes and their own farms. So now, instead of raiding, you plan to attack and stay there, subjugating that tribe and taking over their land. And they want to do the same to you. So you need more fighting men and you need them to train and patrol, which means that they can't feed themselves. So you smack around your farmers to make them give you some of their food. Now you need even more fighters so they can deal with both the enemy tribes and to keep your own people in line. This can't go on so you invent a religion that convinces your people that suffering is good and that their trials in this world are needed for them to have a great time in the afterlife. So now they not only have to give food to the fighters, but they also have to give food to the priests... " 

- Dan Howard .

 

....  then eventually

 

pexels-photo-2224665.jpeg?cs=srgb&dl=aerial-view-of-buildings-2224665.jpg&fm=jpg  90th-birthday-celebration-of-the-Chinese-Peoples-Liberation-Army-Inner-Mongolia-Autonomous-Region.jpg  img.jpg?width=980 

                                                                                                                                 (plastic veggie 'tunnels')

 

 

This is the kind of explanation that projects the state of mind of a civilized person onto the happenings of long ago.  Yes, if our early hunter-gatherer ancestors were clueless dimwits, they would indeed start "noticing" all of a sudden, after not noticing shit about their environment for two million years, some linear cause-effect steps -- while failing to notice any connection of those steps to anything else they affect, while suddenly becoming oblivious to the web of interconnected ecological dependencies in their environment.  Yes, they would all all of a sudden develop tunnel vision of late-stage capitalism, and the psychology of a narrow specialist. 

 

And it's as unrealistic as the pictures "history" schoolbooks (whose real genre is "soft fantasy" -- as opposed to "hard sci-fi" of academic works) paint for us, of hunter-gatherers dying in droves in their 20s from disease (where would it come from -- the nearby airport bringing tourists from another continent, suddenly dragging in a strain the local cavemen have no immunity to?..), accidents (as though they could possibly be as clumsy in their environment as we are), animal attacks (as though animals who don't attack humans even when starving today unless completely painted into the corner by them had nothing better to eat among the staggering abundance of prey and would somehow choose to hunt for predators -- and make no mistake, we've always been predators, not helpless softies -- we hunt in packs and we are extremely good at it, even without weapons... but that, for another post perhaps).  

Edited by Taomeow
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18 hours ago, Apech said:

 

deserves its own thread ... though I would say people these days have fallen into the idea that 'ideas' are dead abstract things with no energy of their own

 

Thank you !  You seem to understand   .      The same has happened with 'imagination' .

 

I have explained some things ( in Daimonic Realty  Theory)  as a function of imagination .  Peeps protest ;  " IT ISNT  only the imagination !   " 

 

But they dont realise the potential and effect the imagination has , they see it as some type of 'fantasy daydream '   / hallucination , etc .   NOT as a component of a 'third reality ' .  

 

 

18 hours ago, Apech said:

- also the modern mind while being comfortable with physical processes, abstract thought and some concept of the absolute, will run a mile at any thought of entities or intelligences in this universe.

 

Indeed .    There are a few good exceptions though , like Dr VanDusen . 

 

Or Carl Sagan  .....   or     Gene Roddenberry     :) 

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Oldest stories (just for interest):  

 

 

at least it has nothing to do with coronavirus!!!!!!!!!

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@Apech Thanks for the videos -- I haven't watched yet but will make time.  And if it's about a society that's known no civilization nor was epigenetically modified by coming into contact with civilization, then I agree in advance, it has nothing to do with coronavirus.

 

But everything civilization has everything to do with coronavirus.  My position has been consistent for years.  Epidemics, pandemics -- these are a regular, predictable, and inevitable built-in feature of civilization.  They begin with civilization and in all likelihood end civilizations.  If not this one, then the next, or the one after.  Bats have been eaten by humans for thousands of years (much more elsewhere than in China though -- e.g. South Pacific Islanders have always been fond of the bat soup), so bats inhabiting this or that biohazardous lab would never guess that they are something novel.  Yet they are.  Incessant novelty (which we taoists call "restless/confused/entangled qi," the outcome of harmony-destroying pathological processes, whether in the body or in society) is also a built-in feature of civilization.   

 

And now back to our regular broadcast.  

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On 2/26/2020 at 10:35 PM, Nungali said:

Yes, a dog is natural . It fulfils my definition in that ,  they are comparable to to things or processes in nature ; the thing is canidae,  the process is  symbiosis    and the  development ( of BOTH   dog and human )  is  similar to  the process observed in  ethnobotany -  man developed and changed many plants , but in that process plants , their usage and effects , have  contributed to the development of modern man . 

 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/653816?seq=1

 

Regarding the 'disappearance of dogs '  ;

 

Mainstream-educated posterity five thousand years from now   will probably have access to even more fossil dogs than we do today .

https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/18/15992572/dog-genetics-archaeology-fossils-evolution-domestication-wolves

 

I tried looking up  fossils of the Gods  .... but no, not even an angel fossil .

 

 

- and by the way ,  I never said what you attribute to me ;  "     Were there gods?  You confidently say "no."  "

 

What I DID say was ;   " the Gods are immortal " . I also said  "  they are  concepts, ideas  and forces "    I also said that the Gods  are ; " not having mortality" - meaning  'immortal' . 

 

- Cant see me  " confidently saying "     ' There where no Gods'   there anywhere  at all   .    :huh:

 

OK, now shove your head back up your ass, dip shit.

 

Edited by Starjumper

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https://www.academia.edu/3045718/2013._A_Cosmic_Hunt_in_the_Berber_sky_a_phylogenetic_reconstruction_of_Palaeolithic_mythology._-_Les_Cahiers_de_lAARS_15_93-106

 

quite interesting.

 

Quote

Our phylogenetic approach of myths allows us to : 1/ confirm the Palaeolithic datation of the Cosmic Hunt linked to a horned herbivore, 2/ reconstruct the first version of the myth, 3/ cor- roborate the hypothesis of a European post-gla- cial human recolonization of Europe and a part of North Africa from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge, 4/ prove the existence of a mythological root common to Berbers and European hunter- gatherers, 6/ document at least four migrations from Eurasia into America and suggest that there was reverse migration from Eurasia to Africa, 5/ find support for the punctuated evo- lution of myths, 6/ offer some suggestions to interpret prehistoric rock art images that should be discovered. Thus, the study of human mytho- logy directly opens up new ways for genetics, archaeology and rock art researches.

 

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Franco-Cantabrian_region.gif#/media/File:Franco-Cantabrian_region.gif

Edited by Apech
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