I give flat earthers crap but there is a widespread misconception

[thelerner]

I found this article fascinating.  It basically shakes up my view of earth.  Enough so that I'll have to double check the information here.

 

The most common map we've seen of the earth since kindergarten, the Mercator is wildly wrong.  Or rather makes some big misrepresentations in the perspective sizes of the continents.   Strangely South America, Australia, Africa and strangely Madagascar are shown accurately sized, but the U.S, Russia, Canada, Greenland, Alaska..tons of of the world are greatly enlarged.  Don't know if its political, a hold out of old colonial thinking or due to the vagaries of representing a 3D image on a 2D plane, but its worth knowing.

 

 

 

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/mercator-map-true-size-of-countries/

Source

Mercator Misconceptions: Clever Map Shows the True Size of Countries

Mercator Misconceptions: Clever Map Shows the True Size of Countries

Maps are hugely important tools in our everyday life, whether it’s guiding our journeys from point A to B, or shaping our big picture perceptions about geopolitics and the environment.

For many people, the Earth as they know it is heavily informed by the Mercator projection – a tool used for nautical navigation that eventually became the world’s most widely recognized map.

Mercator’s Rise to the Top

With any map projection style, the big challenge lies in depicting a spherical object as a 2D graphic. There are various trade-offs with any map style, and those trade-offs can vary depending on how the map is meant to be used.

In 1569, the great cartographer, Gerardus Mercator, created a revolutionary new map based on a cylindrical projection. The new map was well-suited to nautical navigation since every line on the sphere is a constant course, or loxodrome.

Geographic Inflation

The vast majority of us aren’t using paper maps to chart our course across the ocean anymore, so critics of the Mercator projection argue that the continued use of this style of map gives users a warped sense of the true size of countries – particularly in the case of the African continent.

Mercator’s map inadvertently also pumps up the sizes of Europe and North America. Visually speaking, Canada and Russia appear to take up approximately 25% of the Earth’s surface, when in reality they occupy a mere 5%...

 

 

 

me>.  It may well be google maps that gives us a better understanding of distances and measure of our planet- see https://www.google.com/maps/@29.1999805,-65.4727099,2.92z

 

Edited April 4, 2019 by thelerner

[silent thunder]

I routinely find my mind wondering what our current modern life cultural blind spots are, what our comparative flat earth assumptions are.  We most certainly have them...

 

Those things we take for granted simply out of familiarity, or lack of curiosity to ever question.  Or never even consider, they're so background they cease to arise on awareness radar.  I consider Truth by Consensus (religious, political, mythical, scientific dogmatic) to be intellectual violence.  I give earth-universe-centrists a break.  It must have been truly mind boggling to have scientists claiming the earth spins and orbits the sun when from our senses that is extremely counter-intuitive.

 

As for flat maps, they're all kinds of innacurate, on a global scale.  Fine for small depictions, but utter shite for global.

I love globes.  I'd have a collection of them in stone if I were wasteful and interested in tossing money about.  We have one very nice globe, it sits in my son's room and comes out regularly when topics turn global.

 

But yea, what are our current flat earth assumptions that we take for granted that will one day make us seem like simple morons to the future generations?

[Nungali]

 

 

I

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

THIS   THREAD

 

[Nungali]

 

 

[Nungali]

......  it just won't go flat     properly  ! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited June 5, 2019 by Nungali

[Stosh]

Here's an example of cultural blindness , It is not in fact fundamentally intuitive to think the world is flat. Its also not intuitively round. 

Intuitively , it is crooked , it has mountains valleys and seas isn't shaped in any known geometric configuration.

One can see boats drop below the horizon from land  , and from the boat see the lands edge drop as well.

To have a flat idea of the world , one needs to have an idea of there being a 'world' beyond the familiar, and be exposed to flat representations like maps. 

3000 years ago they already knew as mathematical fact that the world was roundish, and it was the advance of mapmakers which induced the idea that it was flat. 

When a 'primitively educated' person points describes things as relatively being 'over there'... and points , they are in fact quite accurate on the scale at which they are discussing the location , and if a thing is up in a tree or on a mountain , over there , is on an inclined angle ,, not flat. 

Human beings have been sea-faring for tens of thousands of years , they saw the horizon , and it wasn't flat; to see a curved horizon , and see ships drop beneath it , and say that the earth is flat, is to have been contaminated by wrong thinking. 

Edited June 5, 2019 by Stosh

[silent thunder]

Seems to me appearance of the observed relies entirely on the level of magnification, on the perspective of the observer. 

(not to forget the added impact of interpretation after observation.)

 

To my eye the Moon is a smooth silver disk.  In my telescope it's riddled with scars.

From my telescope, Venus appears smooth, like a polished orb... 

From the Moon, the Earth appears like a smooth crystal orb, reminds me of an eye.

 

Myopic view reveals craters and valleys in the skin of my hand that appears smooth to my eye.

 

 

 

[Stosh]

46 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

Seems to me appearance of the observed relies entirely on the level of magnification, on the perspective of the observer. 

(not to forget the added impact of interpretation after observation.)

 

 

From my telescope, Venus appears smooth, like a polished orb... 

From the Moon, the Earth appears like a smooth crystal orb, reminds me of an eye.

 

I cant argue with that .. I haven't been to the moon. 

[silent thunder]

37 minutes ago, Stosh said:

I cant argue with that .. I haven't been to the moon. 

me either... but thankfully some astronauts saw fit to bring their cameras...  (drool).

Spoiler

view from Apollo 8

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[rideforever]

There is no such a thing as "mankind knew" .... that the earth is round ... or knew ... anything.

This is the whole problem.

You have either seen it yourself and understood it directly ... or you are just repeating.

[joeblast]

52 minutes ago, Stosh said:

I cant argue with that .. I haven't been to the moon. 

but I used to put my most powerful eyepiece in my telescope and watch it rotate, the shadow creeping across the hills and valleys

[Stosh]

44 minutes ago, rideforever said:

There is no such a thing as "mankind knew" .... that the earth is round ... or knew ... anything.

This is the whole problem.

You have either seen it yourself and understood it directly ... or you are just repeating.

Who? me?

[thelerner]

On 6/5/2019 at 11:31 AM, rideforever said:

There is no such a thing as "mankind knew" .... that the earth is round ... or knew ... anything.

This is the whole problem.

You have either seen it yourself and understood it directly ... or you are just repeating.

I'd say I understand it through various proofs, ie the math the ancients used to figure it out.  Through modern maps that show correct distances in the southern hemisphere.  From photos done by different space agencies, even amateurs who've put video cameras on balloons.  The ancients saw that ships at a distance moved up over the horizon from all sides when they approached.  Modern math has provided formulas on how the earth's curve affect line of sight, and its easily shown with lasers.

 

There are things I don't have to experience directly, ie get into space, to know they exist.  Though such proofs are best with a preponderance of information from different sources and areas of study.   Math (geometry), physics, explorers, map makers, astronomers.. 1950's balloonists who visited the edges of space, the Gemini and Apollo projects, all modern satellites for weather and GPS.  There's another dozen ways and proofs I'm not adding.

 

Thinking the earth isn't a sphere is more a psychological thing then any kind of logical thinking, ie one may as well be existential and doubt the world exists at all.  And that point of view tends to be intellectually phony and not worth debating.  Unless the persons in a coma and you need to convince them to wake up. 

Edited June 13, 2019 by thelerner

[rideforever]

10 hours ago, thelerner said:

There are things I don't have to experience directly, ie get into space, to know they exist.

 

The thing is to ensure that you yourself are fully switched on and competent and able.

It's not about "knowing this is true".

It is about ... having all your circuits switched on and being fully alive, because you yourself are engaging in real life without aid.

Physically emotionally mentally.

Any faculty you do not maintain will develop a pot belly.

And that has to be done every day !

If you don't, if you rely on "facts" on the internet or whatever, then your capabilities are decaying.

There are many intellectual types who have many facts in their skull .... but have no heart and wouldn't know how to start a fire.

It is all unconscious masturbation of the mind.

Stay sharp, stay alive; that's my point.

[thelerner]

9 hours ago, rideforever said:

It is about ... having all your circuits switched on and being fully alive, because you yourself are engaging in real life without aid.

 

Stay sharp, stay alive; that's my point.

Staying sharp and alive is good advice, but I have lots of aids.  I have years of education, I have the internet, I can check facts, I can correlate, I look into the sources and find bias's, there's and mine.  Track the history of paradigms, see how the right ones flourish, the wrongs die out.   Plus I have smart friends to bounce things off of, and dumb ones to amaze (kidding).   

 

I have very powerful tools for learning and finding out the truth.  I have access to experts.  The trick is not to fall so in love with an opinion that the search for truth becomes the search to back up your opinion.  Thus its important to look at both sides, weighing facts and there accuracy. 

 

[rideforever]

That's all fine, with data in the head.

But real learning involves the heart head and body, together.

When you talk about comparing opinions and their relative merits, what this means is that you do not taste reality.

Reality is not researching the best opinion.

It comes from the direct kenning of reality through using the heart head and body together comprehend.

It is not a game.

[thelerner]

I was talking about facts.  Not opinions.  and I don't think the heart or body has much to do with researching factual things.  Maybe spiritual, but factual reality, no.  There's proofs, experiments, models.. the whole scientific method.. no heart, body or kenning, needed. 

 

Are you one who disregards facts because they 'ken' something different. 

[rideforever]

No, for what you want ... you don't need those things.

[thelerner]

6 hours ago, rideforever said:

No, for what you want ... you don't need those things.

right, to figure out factual things, like the shape of our planet, I don't need my heart or body (other then they should function) and the good news is, you don't either.  We can use our head, analyze the facts , no feelings needed.  Science baby!

 

Matter of fact, on this subject, shape of the planet,  feelings, if based on religion,  (ie faith) can be part of the problem.  ie People have a strong biased for believing one way and use there feeling/heart to rationalize poor information.

 

Course for many things.. matters of the heart.. use the heart.  Also for dealing with people and people problems, use the heart.  We're not Vulcans.  The heart, gut and intuition can guide us but we shouldn't let them over ride the facts or lead us into rationalizations. 

Edited June 14, 2019 by thelerner

[rideforever]

It just doesn't work like that, but hey don't listen to me.

I am aware that this is how the entire species operates !!!

Socrates said "the only thing I know is that I know nothing".

Humans use their mind like an electric drill, they drill and drill and drill, but there is no aliveness or real contact happening.

[MooNiNite]

On 4/4/2019 at 5:32 PM, thelerner said:

 

Source

 

Here is the earth according to Nasa satellites, 

You can try to compare it to your map. It looks like most of their satellite images online are coincidentally of Africa though.

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

We say the sun rises and the sun sets and we also know that earth rotates and the sun does not actually move. to opposing true statements.

 

The earth can be round and flat.  The earth is mostly bumpy from where I am standing and for the roundness the sun rises and sets flatness in this perspective the sun would be instantly off and instantly on beside the actual physics and laws of the universe not being accounted for in its flatness.

[thelerner]

4 hours ago, MooNiNite said:

 

Here is the earth according to Nasa satellites, 

You can try to compare it to your map. It looks like most of their satellite images online are coincidentally of Africa though.

 

I can do you one better.  Here are cameras on the International Space Station.  This shows where its at over the earth and the cameras looking down live**.  Pretty cool.  You can use the site to look up  and see the space station that's looking down at us, and with binoculars see its T shape as moves swiftly through the sky. 

 

** THIS WILL SHOW LIVE and PRE-RECORDED FOOTAGE - As the Space Station passes into a period of night every 45 mins video is unavailable - during this time, and other breaks in transmission, recorded footage is shown . When back in daylight the live stream of earth will recommence

Edited June 15, 2019 by thelerner