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The Myth of Conscious awareness in Sleep

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I just like sleeping, because it allows us to rest. When I am tired. And I want to let go and sleep, it is because I am always wanting to be naturally good. I enjoy the ease and comfort in sleeping. And just letting everything be ok as it is, for the night as for the day. As there are some who also allow everything to be as it is good when they are awake. Like some or many animals. Who never sleep and they just allow everything to be ok as it is. And I also allow them all to be ok when I sleep.

 

And many times in my dreams I meet people or I hear and see things that I've never seen before. And I wonder, how amazing, that I can experience new things, even when I am with my eyes closed.

 

But mostly I enjoy the rest of sleeping. And the rest of and in sleeping. I often feel allot better when I rest and let go. And I am able to rest and let go. And fall into deep sleep. And when I wake up, I also enjoy the restfulness of being in that moment of completely allowing everything to be as it is and I just feel like nothing has to be done in that moment of enjoying my natural awakening, I don't even have to open my eyes.

 

For here and now I am, and I allow everything to be exactly as it is. And I feel good, and often I see or hear things, even when my eyes are closed. And I allow that to be ok. Sometimes I think I am looking at my own bed when I lie awake with my eyes closed. Only to realise, my eyes are already closed. And I see and enjoy allot of different perspectives of my own same room that I am in in my waking dream aswell. And I allow that to be ok. It doesn't matter what I see or not see. So I allow myself to see whatever I see, when my eyes are closed or not closed.

 

I enjoy these wakeful restful moments of experiencing restful and wakeful moments, because it is free of any need. It doesn't matter what happens, I don't feel like there needs to be happening anything. I just allow whatever is happening to be happening.

 

And often what is happening in the dream, just happens because it hasn't been capable of happening in the waking state. And often in the waking state what is happening is because it hasn't been capable of happening in the dream state. They are both very good in their own way. They can always be allowed to be how they are as they are. No need to understand why or how or when or where. It is just what it is. And our perspective is also how or when or why.

 

I can be enjoying my restful wakefulness and I can enjoy a greater comfort in being awake and enjoying my waking life and then I also enjoy my sleeping life aswell more. And the other way around aswell. I also enjoy my life more when I enjoy my sleeping more. And I appreciate my restful sleeping more aswell, and then I wake up more restful, and I feel restful when I then also have more energy and vitality, and then I feel even restful when I am running or just fully living my life and going about my waking life.

 

Sometimes I wonder if good things will happen in my waking or daily life, because I have been experiencing good things happening in my dreaming life. And often what happens there are many similarities if you remember how they feel in your dreams, and then recognize how they feel in your waking life, you can see corrolations of what you dreamed and what's now happening in your waking daily life.

 

And often when I think about something good happening, and it is happening, and I feel excited for what I now enjoy more in my life I also see it in my dreams more, and then when I wake up, it doesn't necessarily have to happen, unless I enjoy the dream then I also allow to happen. And I don't even need to remember the dream. Just enjoy whatever I enjoy in my waking life aswell. Cause I am therefor awake after all.

 

There are many things I do enjoy and want in this life to experience. And they are always so close to  who I am and where I am the people I know in my life. The people whom I love so much and inspire so much love from within me. I feel they are a special value for me. They also recognize that. And they also feel that for me.

 

Sometimes people are in your life even they are not in your dreams or your waking life. They still inspire you. And you may wish them to come into your life. And it doesn't have to happen, but I do enjoy those kind of people. For what they inspire within me when I think of them. It is like a day dream that exists between the waking and sleeping life. One where you can choose whatever dream you want to dream in your waking and sleeping life. And therefor in your joy, you come closer to it evermore.

 

And sometimes, just thinking of these things, is because you enjoy them, because they also enjoy you. It is part of your nature. We can enjoy things that seemingly don't exist. But they still can mean allot of value for you evermore. It is not about all the things and dreams. For when you are fully conscious, you decide always why you enjoy what you enjoy so much evermore.

 

And thus, you look back in your life and you remember why you wanted this life. What inspired you to make the decisions you did, it has always been for a good reason. And consciously thinking of all those good reasons and remembering again what you love so much, brings so much clarity to who you really are and also want to be the everbecoming of evermore.

 

Then you can simply allow yourself to enjoy whatever you enjoy thinking about and focusing on, and evermore allow yourself to dream what you enjoy to dream evermore, because you also allow yourself to live what you enjoy to live evermore. And so the dreams reflect that, and so the waking life reflects that aswell. And so your feels reflect that aswell.

 

Because all that you have ever been, has only been because you are now who you now are. And what you enjoy, is part of all of that, and now that you can enjoy it, is also why it has always all been and will be evermore.

 

So allowing that to be ok, that is ok unto itself.

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20 hours ago, steve said:

 

With deep practice and insight there is the possibility of charitable action with no "self" or desire engaged.

This is a manifestation of fairly advanced practice and/or realization.

Most charity is not quite so selfless...

 

 

THE MASQUERADE OF CHARITY

"Charity is really self-interest masquerading under the form of altruism. You say that it is very difficult to accept that there may be times when you are not honest to goodness really trying to be loving or trustful. Let me simplify it. Let’s make it as simple as possible. Let’s even make it as blunt and extreme as possible, at least to begin with. There are two types of selfishness. The first type is the one where I give myself the pleasure of pleasing myself. That’s what we generally call self-centeredness. The second is when I give myself the pleasure of pleasing others. That would be a more refined kind of selfishness.The first one is very obvious, but the second one is hidden, very hidden, and for that reason more dangerous, because we get to feel that we’re really great. But maybe we’re not all that great after all. You protest when I say that. That’s great!"
Anthony deMello.

That is an awesome statement --- "With deep practice and insight there is the possibility of charitable action with no "self" or desire engaged." At that point, things "just happen" without even thinking. I concur completely.

 

Also, I have had many discussions about altruism and , in most "charitable" activities, there does some to be some ulterior motives involved. I agree that, ordinarily, "most charity is not quite so selfless".

 

As for Anthony deMello, I was surprised to see you quoting him. I have two of his books, "The Song of the Bird" and "One Minute Wisdom". Both contain lots of very short stories with wise, thought-provoking morals to each story. I would highly recommend both of them.

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18 hours ago, Spotless said:

Last night I was listening to some beautiful music. My wife asked me a question - it was about 4am - I responded immediately fully awake. 

 

She then informed me I was snoring - I said “just now when you asked your question?” She said yes - “snoring loudly”.

 

 

That reminds me of a similar incident when I went to the Haridwar Kumba Mela in 1998. Since the ashram was still under construction, all of us slept on the temple floor in sleeping bags.

 

My companions told me that I fell asleep quicker than the others and was snoring. They said that they were discussing whether to wake me up to stop the snoring that was interfering with them falling asleep.

 

They reported that, while still "asleep", I responded as follows. "I am NOT (emphasized) snoring. (pause) Wait a minute. I will check. (pause) You are right. I am snoring. I will stop." At that point, they noted that the snoring had indeed stopped but that I was still obviously "sleeping".

 

Like yourself, I enjoy using examples where others are involved as it adds a level of objectivity to the relating of the experience.

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On 2/1/2019 at 6:45 AM, Patrick Brown said:

I'm from an occult background and have experienced lucid dreaming on several occasions and although interesting I didn't dwell on it. The idea of a state of consciousness beyond the sleep state is one that is often postulated but also seems to entail the 'blowing out' of the 'permanent physical seed atom'. We don't have to see this 'seed atom' as anything tangible but more symbolic of a realm in/of which consciousness chooses to reside.   

 

The importance of the 'blowing out' of the 'physical seed atom' is that you no longer retain the ability to manifest on the physical plane/realm together with it's accompanying limitations and laws. The thing is, and it's very important to note, you do not sleep on any plane devoid of the physical! This means in 'blowing out' the 'physical seed atom' you are indeed awakened possibly at least until the next 'pralaya'. I would make sure that you know what you're doing before crossing that bridge! 

 

 

 

 

While your terminology may differ from that to which I am accustomed, I do recall a certain fear when initially experimenting with conscious sleep specifically in reference to "blowing out of the physical seed atom" (using your terminology) and wondering whether one can come back to the physical after  experiencing the transcendental aspects of happening. There are recommended safeguards.

 

Nonetheless, you are absolutely correct in saying that "I would make sure that you know what you're doing before crossing that bridge! "

 

In the classic story about Shankaracharya leaving his body for an extended period of time (about a month) and entering the body of a king who had just died, he had completely forgotten about his previous body and his mission until the memory was awakened by hearing the chanting of his disciples. At that point, he consciously left the body of the king and returned to his body to resume the debate that had triggered this particular experiment.

 

You raise a very good point, and I am sorry that I did not mention that earlier.

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18 hours ago, dwai said:

In the Hindu context, the concept of Karma yoga exists precisely to cultivate selfless service. 

 

As you duly noted, one of the key aspects of Karma yoga is that one loses one's self (the little separatist self) in selfless service to others.

 

Your statement is very concise but nonetheless very powerful.

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17 hours ago, dawei said:

 

Maybe Jeff can start a topic on it as a few here have done it.  Then we could copy your comments as I found it interesting to comment on but don't want to drift this topic.  thanks. 

I too would be interested in hearing Jeff comment more about his practice and a separate topic does seem appropriate.

 

As you suggested, I too might start a separate thread about the young boys at the monastery of the Grand Zen Master in Gyongju, South Korea, whose practice I related to psychologists, clinical social workers, and even psychiatrists. They found the practice to be extremely advanced especially for kids who were under 10 years old. It was a form of meditative self-therapy very consistent with Buddhist mindfulness which, of course, is a guiding principle in the modern therapeutic Cognitive Behavioral Therapy methodology.

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2 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

While your terminology may differ from that to which I am accustomed, I do recall a certain fear when initially experimenting with conscious sleep specifically in reference to "blowing out of the physical seed atom" (using your terminology) and wondering whether one can come back to the physical after  experiencing the transcendental aspects of happening. There are recommended safeguards.

 

Nonetheless, you are absolutely correct in saying that "I would make sure that you know what you're doing before crossing that bridge! "

 

In the classic story about Shankaracharya leaving his body for an extended period of time (about a month) and entering the body of a king who had just died, he had completely forgotten about his previous body and his mission until the memory was awakened by hearing the chanting of his disciples. At that point, he consciously left the body of the king and returned to his body to resume the debate that had triggered this particular experiment.

 

You raise a very good point, and I am sorry that I did not mention that earlier.

 

Yes this is all pretty obscure and it may have been discussed in the writings of Alice Baily, specifically "A Treatise on Cosmic Fire". Having a quick look through the web I can't find anything that talks about the 'blowing out of the permanent physical atom' although it's something I did read many years ago. As said in my previous post the atom isn't real it simply alludes to the egoic consciousness somehow relinquishing it's ability to manifest on physical plane. 

 

If we remember that Buddhist's don't believe in an 'Atman', soul or permanent self and the idea of a permanent atoms only exists to help convey the idea of some kind of attachment. We are told that when one experiences the bliss of nirvana it's so overwhelming that the person is happy to leave this world within that very moment never to return. We have the idea of the Bodhisattva who resists entering nirvana so that they can bring others to self realisation. If one was to enter nirvana they do not return, at least until after the pralaya.  

 

So getting back to higher states of consciousness, beyond sleep, it may be that nirvana is beyond these, shall we say, mental planes and an individual grounded, in said, mental planes, can still take on a physical body which is basically egoic reincarnation right? There is a grey area here which I don't know anything about but it may be possible to loose the ability to manifest on the physical plane but not enter nirvana! In the standard Mahayana Buddhist model Bodhisattva's general reincarnate until the next 'pralaya'/end of the current cycle.

 

So what I'm getting at is there may be a way a egoic consciousness can lose their ability to manifest on the physical plane but also is unable to enter nirvana until the next pralaya! I suppose what I'm referring to could be the Christian purgatory?   

 

EDIT: http://blavatskyarchives.com/thomas/thomasskandhas.htm 

and this: https://theosophy.wiki/en/Life-Atom

 

EDIT2:

 https://www.lucistrust.org/online_books/a_treatise_on_cosmic_fire_obooks/section_two_the_fire_mind_solar_fire/division_the_egoic_ray_and_solar_fire/ii_the_nature_the_permanent_atoms_part1 

 

Edited by Patrick Brown
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5 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

As for Anthony deMello, I was surprised to see you quoting him. I have two of his books, "The Song of the Bird" and "One Minute Wisdom". Both contain lots of very short stories with wise, thought-provoking morals to each story. I would highly recommend both of them.

 

Demello's teachings were a big influence and remain a valuable resource for me.

Both books you mention are wonderful.

His last book, The Way to Love, is my favorite with Awareness a very close second.

I have a collection of his talks, the only recording of his workshops he authorized while alive, called Wake Up to Life - magnificent!

It's mostly material from the book Awareness.

 

 

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3 hours ago, steve said:

 

Demello's teachings were a big influence and remain a valuable resource for me.

Both books you mention are wonderful.

His last book, The Way to Love, is my favorite with Awareness a very close second.

I have a collection of his talks, the only recording of his workshops he authorized while alive, called Wake Up to Life - magnificent!

It's mostly material from the book Awareness.

 

 

I was introduced to DeMello by a Jesuit priest who knew DeMello personally. Apparently,  he is as impressive in person as he is in his eloquent, insightful writings. It would have been nice to have met him personally.

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Remember that in these affirmations we are concerning ourselves with the microcosm, and with the permanent atoms which are related to him; as regards the solar Logos manifesting in the system, we are concerned with but one permanent atom, and this is His physical permanent atom.  It is thus true that within the permanent physical atom of the solar Logos lies hid the ability to respond consciously to the vibration of all the planes, lies hid the secret of the karmic purpose of His incarnation, and lies concealed the mystery of His functional activity; but we cannot penetrate the secret as yet of His three lower permanent atoms as they function as a unity within His causal vehicle.  Until we can do this it is useless for us to conjecture as to His fundamental Being.

 

Source: https://www.lucistrust.org/online_books/a_treatise_on_cosmic_fire_obooks/section_two_the_fire_mind_solar_fire/division_the_egoic_ray_and_solar_fire/ii_the_nature_the_permanent_atoms_part1 

 

So this seems to suggest that the 'physical permanent atom' is made of three lower atoms/aspects/skandas and is a kind of karmic tethering to, and for, physical incarnation. It also seems to suggest that once the karma is exhausted, or perhaps transformed, them the need to incarnate in the physical realms is relinquished.

 

So the warning is still the same, if you blow out the ability to manifest on the physical plane but you haven't transformed your karma then you can't enter nirvana but you also can't manifest on the physical which alone gives you the mechanisms to transform the karma! Maybe the mind can trick the ego into accepting a false nirvana which in reality is really a complex mental construct or delusion and is still a form of desire although not physical? 

 

All I can say without dwelling on this too much is that it may mean the egoic consciousness has to return to the same round of evolution (not a word I like but hey) instead of progressing to the next round. It's something to do with building the 'antahkarana' sometimes called 'the bridge of light'.

 

Quote

In Hindu philosophy, the antahkarana (Sanskrit: "the inner cause") refers to the totality of two levels of mind, namely the buddhi, the intellect or higher mind, and the manas, the middle levels of mind which (according to theosophy) exist as or include the mental body. Antahkarana has also been called the link between the middle and higher mind, the reincarnating part of the mind.[1]

220px-Antahkarana-web.svg.png
 
Antahkarana for computer's radio waves protection

In Vedāntic literature, this antahkaraṇa (internal organ) is organised into four parts:[2]

  1. Ahamkāra (ego) – identifies the Atman (self) with the body as 'I'
  2. Buddhi (intellect) – controls decision making
  3. Manas (mind) – controls sankalpa (will or resolution)
  4. Chitta (memory) – deals with remembering and forgetting

Another description says that "antahkarana" refers to the entire psychological process, including mind and emotions, are composing the mind levels, as described above, which are mentioned as a unit that functions with all parts working together as a whole. Furthermore, when considering that mind levels are bodies, they are: manomayakosha - related to manas - the part of mind related to five senses, and also craving for new and pleasant sensations and emotions, while buddhi (intellect, intelligence, capacity to reason), is related to vijnanamayakosha - the body of consciousness, knowledge, intuition and experience.

Antahkarana also refers to a symbol used in the Reiki healing method.

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antahkarana 

 

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This vid might be of use, I haven't watched it as I'm not really a fan of Bailey but the general principle is the same as other schools. Bailey does tend to throw Christianity into the mix a lot so be warned!! LOL 

 

 

Edited by Patrick Brown

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On 2/2/2019 at 10:57 AM, Still_Waters said:

Keep in mind that Siva started this thread about "The Myth of Conscious Awareness in Sleep" which has been questioned by several practitioners here, including myself. That practice is common to several traditions, so the subject of that thread caught me (and apparently others) by surprise. When someone speaks that authoritatively and NEGATIVELY  on a subject on which they seem to know little, it makes one question their credibility when they say "I know this as a fact" in reference to other things. The absence of any statement regarding practice, results, validation of theories, etc. makes one even more suspicious. As I said before, I weary of theory when no specifics are given regarding practice, results, and ways to validate the presented theory.

 

Regarding Dzogchen's concept of spontaneously perfecting as stuff comes up, it is obvious that, as "stuff comes up", one can deal with it and get rid of it. The same phenomenon happens in conscious sleep and in other meditative methodologies as well. That is somewhat obvious and requires no further discussion.

 

Now, let's shift to the practice that you introduced.  Having participants bring up their deepest fears and issues is cool but, having a postgraduate degree in clinical social work which included an internship as a therapist, I'm not convinced that this is a more effective practice than the conscious sleep practice discussed in this thread. It is, of course, simpler and easier. In conscious sleep, as dreams occur, the unconscious as well as the conscious presents itself quite effectively in the sequence most conducive to addressing the underlying tendencies/urges brought to one's attention. I'm not even sure that the practice you indicated is more effective than the simple meditative practice I directly observed with kids as young as 8 or 9 years old at the monastery of the Grand Zen Master in Gyungju, South Korea. However, that is a subject for another time. In any case, you've at least introduced something in the way of practice and that is appreciated.

 

Regarding the post of Siva's to which I responded, it was very disappointing especially in light of the subject he presented for consideration in this thread. The thread, however, turned out to be great despite the original post.

 

Lastly, while intellectual masturbation is intellectually stimulating, theories are most assuredly no substitute for practice, discussion of practice results, and methodologies for verifying the theories that are presented as "facts" albeit with no substantiating additional info. While I read such posts from time to time and they occasionally spark some interest, I am far more interested in statements that trigger action in some way related to practice.

 

In TDB, one need not be an authority to create or discuss topics.  There is no hierarchical structure in this forum and everyone has the independence to discuss the topics they like as long as it is civil.  Some people challenged the topic, yes this is good and I welcomed it.  I responded to some of the challenges that are credible in my view.  Your claims about Ramana Maharishi, Vedanta including Mandukya Upanishad having consciousness in sleep were clearly shown to be entirely inaccurate.  You make wrong assertions casually and then back off when questioned like quoting Eaknath Easwaran's book as the words of authentic Mandukya Upanishad.

 

Many things you have said and written here are not even related to this topic like repeating your experiences from Kumbha Mela or people or some yogi you met, which I have read in various threads in TDB so far.  While it is interesting to read such posts, other people's stories and claims of tall attainments mean very little to me.  They generally add very little value to anyone.  Claims of direct experience means nothing unless it is also expressed in the world or be demonstrable to others in the world.  Lot of people make many claims of great attainments these days.  Once again it means very little to me personally unless they can show it by sharing their presence or they radiate the higher states of realization.  

 

Challenging others direct experience or be judgemental about the expertise of others is pointless.  This is why I suggested you skip the posts if you do not like reading them.  Challenging other topics because in your view the OP is not an authority or don't have the experience you claim is not within the spirit of how this forum operates.

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Hopefully I'm not straying too far from the original question here but I think dimensions may well play a part in what we suppose consciousness to be. I came across the video below and it's kinda interesting but I've been working on the idea of time and duration for a few years. When I say working I've been trying to evolve my consciousness to accept that we only seeing a part of a duration/time cycle which in reality it's happening all at once yet may be itself evolving towards, into, something which we can't comprehend and is beyond what we perceive as the flow of time.

 

So I try to see consciousness as an image coming into focus but it's really an understanding or a perception of 'what is'. The beginning, middle and end arise together as the sphere in the video with the centre point of the sphere being the beginning, the edge/outside of the sphere being the end and expansion/size being the duration. The 'now' we experience is the illusion of time as we perceive it in the third dimension but in the fourth dimension the beginning the end and the now are one. So consciousness is a self contained event that comes into the physical plane and then back out of it! Yes I don't understand it either but to really make it interesting all events are happening within a greater event while at the same time having smaller events coming and going in a split second inside of themselves (think quantum particles atoms etc)! 

 

The main chap at CERN years ago when asked what was before the big bang said "fields of potentiality"! 

 

I'm not trying to do anybodies head in and I don't dwell on this I just try to remember that it's probably something to keep in mind and consider every now and then!    

 

This doesn't mean that events are predetermined as the past the and the future are connected by the now. Change one and change the whole. As said I don't understand it but I think the past and future may be an illusion relatively speaking of course. 

 

 

Edited by Patrick Brown
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4 hours ago, Patrick Brown said:

Hopefully I'm not straying too far from the original question here but I think dimensions may well play a part in what we suppose consciousness to be. I came across the video below and it's kinda interesting but I've been working on the idea of time and duration for a few years. When I say working I've been trying to evolve my consciousness to accept that we only seeing a part of a duration/time cycle which in reality it's happening all at once yet may be itself evolving towards, into, something which we can't comprehend and is beyond what we perceive as the flow of time.

 

 

I think these points are totally relevant to this topic.  Dimensions certainly plays a part in how we perceive our consciousness as.

 

These dimensional possibilities are one of the things I meant when I described the multi-dimensional and the uncovering of new subconscious layers in some of my posts earlier.  When we go beyond the bodily chakras, open and integrate certain higher and advanced layers, it opens up the multi dimensional perceptions.  Our total perception of everything changes as we advance into these new layers of perception.  Dimensional concepts are also the limiting factor to some.  They are narrowed down by certain boundaries of their own perceptions and experience, and when they hear other's experience that is beyond their orbit of awareness or perception, it sounds like theory to them, since they cannot simply comprehend or understand it from where they are.  It is like explaining the 4D concept of the sphere from that video to someone who has no clue about that 4th dimension and thinks the 3 dimensions are the be-all and end-all of everything.  Yes, the flow of time itself is a perception and we are only seeing parts of reality in chunks.

 

 

4 hours ago, Patrick Brown said:

So I try to see consciousness as an image coming into focus but it's really an understanding or a perception of 'what is'. The beginning, middle and end arise together as the sphere in the video with the centre point of the sphere being the beginning, the edge/outside of the sphere being the end and expansion/size being the duration. The 'now' we experience is the illusion of time as we perceive it in the third dimension but in the fourth dimension the beginning the end and the now are one. So consciousness is a self contained event that comes into the physical plane and then back out of it! Yes I don't understand it either but to really make it interesting all events are happening within a greater event while at the same time having smaller events coming and going in a split second inside of themselves (think quantum particles atoms etc)! 

 

The now that we experience is also an illusion limited by the dimensions as rightly pointed out.  Mind is inherently limited by time and space until the layers beyond time and space from the subconscious gets integrated.  I believe it gets clearer as our clarity increases.

 

4 hours ago, Patrick Brown said:

The main chap at CERN years ago when asked what was before the big bang said "fields of potentiality"! 

 

I'm not trying to do anybodies head in and I don't dwell on this I just try to remember that it's probably something to keep in mind and consider every now and then!    

 

This doesn't mean that events are predetermined as the past the and the future are connected by the now. Change one and change the whole. As said I don't understand it but I think the past and future may be an illusion relatively speaking of course. 

 

If the concept and limitation of time itself is nothing but an illusion, then it includes past, now, future all of it.  But, there are benefits to be present in the now instead of getting entangled with the mind's stories from the past or the projections about the future.   I understand and agree that it does not indicate that the events are predetermined.  But, it is possible to work with the various dimensions of past and future at the same time.  Have an impact across the board.

 

In the Kashmir Shaivism tradition, 5 kanchukas or cloaks that veil our experience are mentioned.  One of them is the veil of time.  I have written about it in the following post in my PPD.  The veil of time is described as 'kala tattva'  (time principle) anc limits us to this 3D dimension.  It is part of the sphere of illusion, which is one of the layers to be transcended.  The 4 other limitations besides the (1) time principle that bind us to this worldly experience are 2) the perception of space/distance limitation just like time limitation (niyati tattva), perception of limited knowing (vidya tattva), perception of lacking (raga tattva), perception of limited activity or authorship.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this subject. I find them very interesting.

 

 

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On 2/3/2019 at 2:01 PM, steve said:

 

Demello's teachings were a big influence and remain a valuable resource for me.

Both books you mention are wonderful.

His last book, The Way to Love, is my favorite with Awareness a very close second.

I have a collection of his talks, the only recording of his workshops he authorized while alive, called Wake Up to Life - magnificent!

It's mostly material from the book Awareness.

 

 

You might want to check out "The Great Song, the Life and Teachings of Joe Miller". He was an outrageous American mystic who rubbed shoulders with the best of them in his highly unorthodox manner and language. He referred to us all as "wild-assed sparks of the infinite" to give you an idea of his use of language. He didn't take any money for public speaking or private consoling. He spoke for free and would talk to anyone who was interested.

 

Relevant to the topic at hand, there is a short chapter in the book on "Waking, Dreaming, and Deep Sleep". He specifically states: "If you get to a point where you can keep your consciousness focused, you can go through the whole period of falling asleep, dreaming, , deep sleep and back awake again without losing that consciousness. Now, when you can do that, you're cooking on the big burner."

 

Joe was well known in spiritual circles for his outrageous behavior. At the Masonic Auditorium, Krishnamurti asked a purely rhetorical question about love. Joe boomed an irreverently reverent answer down from the rafters. At the Herbst Theater, he hollered something at Ram Dass. Ram Dass closed his eyes, let the eruption of sound cascade through him and smiled warmly, saying "Hello, Joe." Once after an empowerment, Joe challenged the formidable Chogyam Trungpa. When Joe tried to decline a gift  (of flowers) and give the flowers back to him (Muktananda), Muktananda said, "No, one must always give offerings to a saint". Joe's life story is fascinating and his wisdom ranks among the best in a highly unorthodox manner.

 

Joe's understanding was gleaned from many traditions but he considered Ramana's teachings to be the exquisite culmination of the quest, the penultimate expression of the divine wisdom for our age. Whenever he encountered a "REAL ONE", there would be a mystical , non-verbal exchange of energy, an understanding that flowed both ways.

 

HOWEVER, if the atmosphere was stale, staid, phony or overly intellectual Joe would detonate one of his incendiary devices --- but his intent was to revivify, not destroy. In such cases, Joe would attempt to "rattle their cages", or seize the opportunity to show the audience something, and maybe send a shock wave through it. He didn't mind making of fool of himself if he could stir a few people on to look a little deeper.

 

Since I have high respect for you based on what I have seen of your posts, I mention this so that you can now better understand why I responded so strongly to OP's completely ungrounded assertions presented as facts regarding "The Myth of Conscious awareness in Sleep". When some one initiates a thread openly characterizing a practice performed by many as a "Myth" while obviously knowing little or nothing about the practice, it cannot simply be skipped over. As Joe would most assuredly have done, one must "rattle their cages" and the cages of their entire intellectual clique lest they damage the practice of many who read their nonsense and thus associate their negativity with the practice. I have no concerns about being banned from this site for my strong comments. My spiritual mentor was excommunicated from a Shankaracharya order for advocating female equality and debated her position so successfully in the public forum that the order requested her to return. She refused since she did want to go back to that nonsense. Like Joe and my spiritual mentor, I feel likewise. I have noticed subsequent posts by OP and noted that one poster characterized one of those posts as "juvenile". I, however, have decided to give the kindest and most charitable response possible --- NONE.  Let everyone here decide for themselves whether conscious awareness in sleep is a myth or not. So be it.

 

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7 minutes ago, Still_Waters said:

You might want to check out "The Great Song, the Life and Teachings of Joe Miller". He was an outrageous American mystic who rubbed shoulders with the best of them in his highly unorthodox manner and language. He referred to us all as "wild-assed sparks of the infinite" to give you an idea of his use of language. He didn't take any money for public speaking or private consoling. He spoke for free and would talk to anyone who was interested.

 

Relevant to the topic at hand, there is a short chapter in the book on "Waking, Dreaming, and Deep Sleep". He specifically states: "If you get to a point where you can keep your consciousness focused, you can go through the whole period of falling asleep, dreaming, , deep sleep and back awake again without losing that consciousness. Now, when you can do that, you're cooking on the big burner."

 

Joe was well known in spiritual circles for his outrageous behavior. At the Masonic Auditorium, Krishnamurti asked a purely rhetorical question about love. Joe boomed an irreverently reverent answer down from the rafters. At the Herbst Theater, he hollered something at Ram Dass. Ram Dass closed his eyes, let the eruption of sound cascade through him and smiled warmly, saying "Hello, Joe." Once after an empowerment, Joe challenged the formidable Chogyam Trungpa. When Joe tried to decline a gift  (of flowers) and give the flowers back to him (Muktananda), Muktananda said, "No, one must always give offerings to a saint". Joe's life story is fascinating and his wisdom ranks among the best in a highly unorthodox manner.

 

Joe's understanding was gleaned from many traditions but he considered Ramana's teachings to be the exquisite culmination of the quest, the penultimate expression of the divine wisdom for our age. Whenever he encountered a "REAL ONE", there would be a mystical , non-verbal exchange of energy, an understanding that flowed both ways.

 

HOWEVER, if the atmosphere was stale, staid, phony or overly intellectual Joe would detonate one of his incendiary devices --- but his intent was to revivify, not destroy. In such cases, Joe would attempt to "rattle their cages", or seize the opportunity to show the audience something, and maybe send a shock wave through it. He didn't mind making of fool of himself if he could stir a few people on to look a little deeper.

 

Since I have high respect for you based on what I have seen of your posts, I mention this so that you can now better understand why I responded so strongly to OP's completely ungrounded assertions presented as facts regarding "The Myth of Conscious awareness in Sleep". When some one initiates a thread openly characterizing a practice performed by many as a "Myth" while obviously knowing little or nothing about the practice, it cannot simply be skipped over. As Joe would most assuredly have done, one must "rattle their cages" and the cages of their entire intellectual clique lest they damage the practice of many who read their nonsense and thus associate their negativity with the practice. I have no concerns about being banned from this site for my strong comments. My spiritual mentor was excommunicated from a Shankaracharya order for advocating female equality and debated her position so successfully in the public forum that the order requested her to return. She refused since she did want to go back to that nonsense. Like Joe and my spiritual mentor, I feel likewise. I have noticed subsequent posts by OP and noted that one poster characterized one of those posts as "juvenile". I, however, have decided to give the kindest and most charitable response possible --- NONE.  Let everyone here decide for themselves whether conscious awareness in sleep is a myth or not. So be it.

 

 

The thread was started with regard to the fact that Turiya  is not the same thing as lucid dreaming. Throughout the thread in multiple traditions it has been shown that the two are not the same thing.

 

Nobody has said there is not value in a dreaming practice, it just isn't Turiya .

 

It seems you are arguing about something that hasn't been said by the OP.

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26 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

The thread was started with regard to the fact that Turiya  is not the same thing as lucid dreaming. Throughout the thread in multiple traditions it has been shown that the two are not the same thing.

 

Nobody has said there is not value in a dreaming practice, it just isn't Turiya .

 

It seems you are arguing about something that hasn't been said by the OP.

 

Thanks for pointing out once again what I have mentioned and explained several times so far in this thread right from the start.

 

It feels like some won't get it or understand the difference between Turiya, Turiyatita and the other states.  For a frog that has lived all along inside the well, the experiences or states outside the well may not make much sense and even be subjected to challenges.

 

If we don't agree with a topic, we can state and explain our difference in 1, 2 or few posts.  After that it is best to let go and move on to something else.  Agree to disagree on the topic like some wise people do.  Unless someone has attachment towards the topic and obsessing about it to keep raising the same objections and claims page after page.  Not only does it gets tiring for the readers, it just kills the flow of the entire discussion. 

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51 minutes ago, Still_Waters said:

When some one initiates a thread openly characterizing a practice performed by many as a "Myth" while obviously knowing little or nothing about the practice, it cannot simply be skipped over. As Joe would most assuredly have done, one must "rattle their cages" and the cages of their entire intellectual clique lest they damage the practice of many who read their nonsense and thus associate their negativity with the practice. I have no concerns about being banned from this site for my strong comments.

 

***. Mod Team Notice.  ***

I tried communicating in a fair and decent way with you so far.  You have been judgemental from the start about who knows what or how much and who is qualified to talk on this topic.  I have explained clearly there is no hierarchy in TDB and any one can discuss spiritual topics in a civil manner and in egalitarian spirit. 

 

Calling this topic and my remarks nonsense is a ad hominem and in violation of the terms of this site.  I am warning you to refrain from such actions going forward.  

 

Once again if you don't like a topic, you can state your opposition in a civil manner.  If you continue to dislike a topic, then as I advised you always have the choice to ignore instead of attempting cheap insults.

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1 hour ago, Jonesboy said:

 

The thread was started with regard to the fact that Turiya  is not the same thing as lucid dreaming. Throughout the thread in multiple traditions it has been shown that the two are not the same thing.

 

Nobody has said there is not value in a dreaming practice, it just isn't Turiya .

 

It seems you are arguing about something that hasn't been said by the OP.

 

I think you raise a good point.  Any active dreaming (whether lucid or not), is not Turiya.  But, I would also agree that it is possible to maintain awareness during sleep, and it is very much like Spotless described earlier... laying in bed, fully aware at various layers of consciousness... and then your wife hits you and tells you stop snoring... :) 

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Just because!

Well this happened to me several times as a teenager:

 

I can remember being in a lucid dream and being in the past but as well as being this person I was also watching from outside of them! So for clarity I was a person looking out of a window thinking and observing, in a dream, and at the same time was watching, in the dream, the person looking out of the window, I was experiencing two (perhaps three) states of consciousness, the person looking out of the window who was unaware of anything but his own mind then a disembodied consciousness watching from above who had the same thoughts as the person looking out of the window but at the same time I knew it was a dream so maybe that's a third state of consciousness!  This only happened twice I think and was set in Victorian times, very strange. 

 

On another occasion when I was a bit screwed up I saw myself when awake several times as a separate entity. Yeah that was very disconcerting to say the least and was after I had been playing with lucid dreaming for a few months, successfully I may add. I generally warn people away from lucid dreaming as I believe it can make some people schizophrenic. Try lucid dreaming if you must but don't dwell on it.  

 

Important to note here that I think on the higher planes the conceptual element of mind doesn't come into play that is images as we know them are simply incompatible with out waking consciousness. This explains the strange imagery we often have in dreams as the lower minds try to dress these thoughts in a way we can comprehend. We are told though that we can directly experience these higher/different states of consciousness but obviously there's no easy way to convey the experience. And of course the experience of nirvana/bliss is beyond the mind as we are told it's a state of 'being which is non being'.  

 

Hopefully I haven't muddied the waters. 

Edited by Patrick Brown
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1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

I think you raise a good point.  Any active dreaming (whether lucid or not), is not Turiya.  But, I would also agree that it is possible to maintain awareness during sleep, and it is very much like Spotless described earlier... laying in bed, fully aware at various layers of consciousness... and then your wife hits you and tells you stop snoring... :) 

 

This reminds me of when I was listening to Coasttocoastam and a caller described how he woke up and he could sense another body but it was not his own body - something like this. I was listening in full lotus and I knew what the caller was asking about. The radio show is an overnight national show. So I fell asleep in full lotus. Then I woke up to see my own body - first I FELT this heavy sensation in the BED but I KNEW it was not my own body. Then suddenly I saw that the heavy sensation in the bed that was NOT my own body was actually because my spirit was hovering outside my body, looking back at my body in full lotus on the bed. As soon as my spirit made that realization that I was looking at my own body the FLASH! I was back inside my body.

 

So this is an example of not maintaining Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Another great example is Master Phra Acharn Mun - the most famous meditation master of Thailand. His biography is a free read online. So his colleague in meditation together - his colleague started levitating. But as soon as he realized he was levitating then his body fall back to the floor. So he had to train to maintain his samadhi state while levitating. So this is called Prajna in Buddhism - since you maintain awareness of the Emptiness while you are in the Emptiness. So in Advaita - the particular Nirvikalpa Samadhi then is focused internally on the source of the mind. Whereas Nirvikalpa in general is like what is called in quantum physics - the Quantum Zeno Effect. So you turn back the light - so that the image is "refreshing" itself at the same rate that the Emptiness is recharging the light with spacetime ether-power.

 

So if there is any left brain intention like thinking - oh I am looking at my own body in the bed! or "I am levitating!" - the WHAM - at the flash of light - you lose connection with the spacetime ether Jnana or Yuan Qi - and your spirit goes back into the body or your stop levitating. But if you keep the left brain thinking at a zero level and instead just "freeze" the image so that it refreshes at the same rate that it is being recharged - then you can maintain the Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Now it just depends on what the IMAGE is that is being "frozen" as nirvikalpa samadhi.

 

Ramana Maharshi's big point is - you can have all the powers manifest but it is still a temporary type of nirvikalpa samadhi. So only by the Image being turned back into pure ATTENTION as awareness - then does the spirit empty out beyond the death of the body itself. That is the specific process of achieving eternal liberation as a post-death "cutting of the knot" of the spiritual ego attached to the body.

Edited by voidisyinyang
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1 hour ago, Patrick Brown said:

Just because!

Well this happened to me several times as a teenager:

 

I can remember being in a lucid dream and being in the past but as well as being this person I was also watching from outside of them! So for clarity I was a person looking out of a window thinking and observing, in a dream, and at the same time was watching, in the dream, the person looking out of the window, I was experiencing two (perhaps three) states of consciousness, the person looking out of the window who was unaware of anything but his own mind then a disembodied consciousness watching from above who had the same thoughts as the person looking out of the window but at the same time I knew it was a dream so maybe that's a third state of consciousness!  This only happened twice I think and was set in Victorian times, very strange. 

 

On another occasion when I was a bit screwed up I saw myself when awake several times as a separate entity. Yeah that was very disconcerting to say the least and was after I had been playing with lucid dreaming for a few months, successfully I may add. I generally warn people away from lucid dreaming as I believe it can make some people schizophrenic. Try lucid dreaming if you must but don't dwell on it.  

 

I understand and respect your experiences.  But, I feel lucid dreaming is fun and it can make a person aware of the fact that everything is just the projections of the mind, including the physical world, objects etc.  They appear and disappear as the result of the mind.  As far as I know, it is safe to practice these with some guidance from a teacher or as part of the practices of certain tradition.  I have had OBE experiences during sleep or meditative states, it can be alarming or scary at times, especially when it happens for the first time.  Such fear subsides in my experience.  It is all experiences that arise and subside in the consciousness and no reason for the fear, when this is experientially understood then there is no more fear.

 

1 hour ago, Patrick Brown said:

Important to note here that I think on the higher planes the conceptual element of mind doesn't come into play that is images as we know them are simply incompatible with out waking consciousness. This explains the strange imagery we often have in dreams as the lower minds try to dress these thoughts in a way we can comprehend. We are told though that we can directly experience these higher/different states of consciousness but obviously there's no easy way to convey the experience. And of course the experience of nirvana/bliss is beyond the mind as we are told it's a state of 'being which is non being'.  

 

Hopefully I haven't muddied the waters. 

 

I am not sure whether images are incompatible without the waking consciousness, perhaps without the perception of the seeing, which results from (or is the reason for) the sense organ 'eyes'.  But, I get your point.  Images are not everything, it is possible to 'directly know' without imagery in the higher states.  It can happen as flashes of intuition to everyone at times.  Only many may not notice or understand what it truly is.  You mentioned there is no easy way to convey such direct experience.  I agree.  It  may be very hard to explain it to those who do not understand or disagree with the possibility of direct knowing.

 

Agree on nirvana beyond the mind and you have not muddied the waters.  Please feel free to share :).

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38 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

This reminds me of when I was listening to Coasttocoastam and a caller described how he woke up and he could sense another body but it was not his own body - something like this. I was listening in full lotus and I knew what the caller was asking about. The radio show is an overnight national show. So I fell asleep in full lotus. Then I woke up to see my own body - first I FELT this heavy sensation in the BED but I KNEW it was not my own body. Then suddenly I saw that the heavy sensation in the bed that was NOT my own body was actually because my spirit was hovering outside my body, looking back at my body in full lotus on the bed. As soon as my spirit made that realization that I was looking at my own body the FLASH! I was back inside my body.

 

So this is an example of not maintaining Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Another great example is Master Phra Acharn Mun - the most famous meditation master of Thailand. His biography is a free read online. So his colleague in meditation together - his colleague started levitating. But as soon as he realized he was levitating then his body fall back to the floor. So he had to train to maintain his samadhi state while levitating. So this is called Prajna in Buddhism - since you maintain awareness of the Emptiness while you are in the Emptiness. So in Advaita - the particular Nirvikalpa Samadhi then is focused internally on the source of the mind. Whereas Nirvikalpa in general is like what is called in quantum physics - the Quantum Zeno Effect. So you turn back the light - so that the image is "refreshing" itself at the same rate that the Emptiness is recharging the light with spacetime ether-power.

 

So if there is any left brain intention like thinking - oh I am looking at my own body in the bed! or "I am levitating!" - the WHAM - at the flash of light - you lose connection with the spacetime ether Jnana or Yuan Qi - and your spirit goes back into the body or your stop levitating. But if you keep the left brain thinking at a zero level and instead just "freeze" the image so that it refreshes at the same rate that it is being recharged - then you can maintain the Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Now it just depends on what the IMAGE is that is being "frozen" as nirvikalpa samadhi.

 

Ramana Maharshi's big point is - you can have all the powers manifest but it is still a temporary type of nirvikalpa samadhi. So only by the Image being turned back into pure ATTENTION as awareness - then does the spirit empty out beyond the death of the body itself. That is the specific process of achieving eternal liberation as a post-death "cutting of the knot" of the spiritual ego attached to the body.

 

 

I agree such experiences seem to be related to different types of nirvikalpa samadhi or perhaps clear light states.  I have read that Swami Rami demonstrated such abilities to listen and be aware while snoring in deep yoga nidra states in a laboratory while they measured his brain activity with equipments etc.  So this has been demonstrated conclusively and there is no question about such abilities.

 

My objective was to distinguish these temporary states (you mentioned it as temporary type of nirvikalpa samadhi and I agree with this also)  from that of Turiya, which is a permanent shift, however we want to describe it.

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1 hour ago, s1va said:

 

 

I agree such experiences seem to be related to different types of nirvikalpa samadhi or perhaps clear light states.  I have read that Swami Rami demonstrated such abilities to listen and be aware while snoring in deep yoga nidra states in a laboratory while they measured his brain activity with equipments etc.  So this has been demonstrated conclusively and there is no question about such abilities.

 

My objective was to distinguish these temporary states (you mentioned it as temporary type of nirvikalpa samadhi and I agree with this also)  from that of Turiya, which is a permanent shift, however we want to describe it.

I don't ever recall reading Turiya to be a "permanent shift." My understanding is Turiya is from its own perspective - so it already exists inherently. It's just that we are not "aware" of it. Again this is the paradox of Turiya. It can be logically inferred through Vichara - and it is the source of light in the dream and waking state but it's also the source of the bliss in the deep dreamless state. So to go into Turiya also means to LOOSE self-consciousness just as in deep dreamless sleep - only in Turiya you are like in a dream state where the light as frequency is too INTENSE and so it blinds your dream ego. So being awake is a type of dreaming - physical 4D reality is a type of dream with the mind in a diffuse reflection of Turiya. Dreaming is also a type of "diffuse" light that is not as intense. then the more a person meditates - this relies on biophoton laser coherent light. So you "turn" the light around - which means you resonate a self-coherent frequency of light as a laser. Think of an LED light - these lights blind the eyes because the LED light is based on one frequency of light instead of a diffuse spectrum like incandescent light.  So we can not "trap" light because science assumes an external parameter that measures the light. But in meditation there is no external parameter - instead of mind is light directly and the light is turned around.  So for example we then literally store this light in our bodies as shen energy or biophoton energy - and science has measured how qigong healers will release biophoton energy. Then AFTER a qigong healing occurs, the healer has to recover with their internal biophoton light no longer being as coherent. This is now proven by science. Beverly Rubik has the latest publication on this - but a scientist in India has done some of the best research on these biophoton dynamics from meditation and healing.

 

So with the eyes closed, when we visualize light - it's proven that the biophotons internally increase but also the "source" of these biophotons is from the Emptiness directly - the quantum vacuum or anti-matter (virtual photons). Qigong master Yan Xin calls this the "virtual information field" that does the healing. So if you take any object - it will have a quantum frequency. For example it's proven now the best way to explain our sense of smell is based on quantum frequency. So a molecule can have a different shape as a Phase - form - but the same frequency - it can be a LEFT handed molecule or Right handed chiral shape. This will change the smell! Like with orange smell and lemon smell. Or you can have two drastically different molecules but they have the same quantum frequency - so they smell the same.

 

So what this quantum phase refers to - the chirality - is actually the "super momentum" - the phase is when the Light is entangled. This is proven in science now - it's called Weak Measurements. So it proves that there is this super momentum phase and that is what "guides" the electrons that go through the double slit experiment. That is the Ether now proven in science. So with these "weak" measurements - there is NO time elapsing. You "freeze" the light by  having two photons are are entangled. So by having a FORM that you are visualizing externally - you can "freeze" the future and the past of that form as the light experiences it. But each photon while entangled do not experience time in themselves. So that is the "phase" of the light - it is the 5th dimension that "guides" the photons or electrons. So it is the position as phase but not of the Particle as a moving photon - but instead of the SPIN of the photon as it is entangled non-locally with its physical environment.

 

So if we can "freeze" our minds at the speed of light - there is still this SUPER-luminal "spin" or super-momentum as it is call. Normally in classical physics we think of momentum as dependent on the movement of a particle but Louis de Broglie proved that in quantum physics the momentum is actually a STANDING WAVE based on the frequency as the momentum (at the speed of light).

 

OK so that can occur for external objects - but as Ramana Maharshi emphasized - what if you are just turning the light around back to itself? Then you just have this zero/ infinite "rest frame" that does not exist in a material sense - it's just the 5th dimension directly as this Super-Momentum (or phase or spin). So in science this is called the "measurement problem" because science has to make an external measurement at the speed of light assuming some physical external parameter. But if we have no external parameter - then instead there is no "Bloch Universe" that is physical spacetime (no material medium) - instead there is just an infinite non-physical information-energy that is eternal LISTENING or logical inference, listening "to itself" and thereby generating light (and matter)....

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7 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

Since I have high respect for you based on what I have seen of your posts, I mention this so that you can now better understand why I responded so strongly to OP's completely ungrounded assertions presented as facts regarding "The Myth of Conscious awareness in Sleep". When some one initiates a thread openly characterizing a practice performed by many as a "Myth" while obviously knowing little or nothing about the practice, it cannot simply be skipped over. As Joe would most assuredly have done, one must "rattle their cages" and the cages of their entire intellectual clique lest they damage the practice of many who read their nonsense and thus associate their negativity with the practice. I have no concerns about being banned from this site for my strong comments. My spiritual mentor was excommunicated from a Shankaracharya order for advocating female equality and debated her position so successfully in the public forum that the order requested her to return. She refused since she did want to go back to that nonsense. Like Joe and my spiritual mentor, I feel likewise. I have noticed subsequent posts by OP and noted that one poster characterized one of those posts as "juvenile". I, however, have decided to give the kindest and most charitable response possible --- NONE.  Let everyone here decide for themselves whether conscious awareness in sleep is a myth or not. So be it.

 

Joe sounds like a real peach!

Thanks for the recommendation.

 

I've been on this site for a while and have gone through quite a few ups and downs regarding engagement and disengagement.

At this point, I delete the majority of my posts before ever publishing them and ignore most of the misinformation I come across.

 

I got involved with this thread for the same reason as you and soon realized I'd said enough.

I have little interest in theory and intellectual understanding so debate doesn't turn me on.

It's not my place to try and convince anyone of anything, just my option to make an offering if conditions seem favorable. 

 

If someone finds something of value in what I say, wonderful!

If someone finds what I say to be utter horse-shit, wonderful!

It's just words and concepts and, at the end of the day, I'd be better off spending more time on the cushion and with my family.

 

It's really nice to connect with you and I hope you stick around. 

With warmth and blessings on this beautiful Losar!

 

5c5a394236b36_HappyLosarMeme.jpg.7ce2944accbb4000971c914fbc1fe0e8.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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