The Brexit Thread

[Patrick Brown]

This from Reuters on the Paris situation:

 

Quote

Roving gangs of "yellow vest" militants set heart of Paris ablaze

Luke Baker

5-6 minutes December 1, 2018 / 12:57 PM / Updated an hour ago

---

PARIS (Reuters) - Groups of young men with faces masked, some carrying metal bars and axes, rioted on the streets of central Paris on Saturday, setting a dozen vehicles ablaze and torching buildings, unleashing the city’s worst urban unrest for years.

Firemen extinguish burning cars set afire by protesters wearing yellow vests, a symbol of a French drivers' protest against higher diesel fuel taxes, during clashes near the Place de l'Etoile in Paris, France, December 1, 2018. REUTERS/Stephane Mahe

Near the Ritz hotel, not far from high-end boutiques and restaurants, and in the avenues off the Arc de Triomphe, where several foreign embassies are located, gangs of violent protesters ran riot, setting a police van on fire and overturning cars. At least two buildings were aflame.

Close to the Place Vendome, Christmas trees decorating the streets were upended, piled in the middle of an avenue and set alight, prompting chanting from scores of protesters.

Youths smashed the windows of the flagship Apple Store on the Champs Elysees which opened just a few weeks ago. A boutique on the Rue Rivoli was broken into and looted. Banks were vandalized and scrawled with anti-government graffiti.

Police said several hundred far-right and far-left extremists had infiltrated a demonstration by some 5,000 calmer “yellow vest” protesters who had gathered in the capital to denounce President Emmanuel Macron’s fuel tax increases.

“We are in a state of insurrection, I’ve never seen anything like it,” Jeanne d’Hauteserre, the mayor of the city’s 8th arrondissement, near the Arc de Triomphe, told BFM TV.

It is the third week of national unrest by the movement — named after the high-visibility jackets that all motorists in France must carry in their vehicles — and the second consecutive weekend of violent disturbance in Paris.

As night fell on the city, there were overturned vehicles in flames around the Arc de Triomphe, an assault rifle had been stolen by protesters from a police van, and fires were burning in popular tourists areas such as Opera.

Around Saint Lazare station, the windows of a bank were smashed before police on horseback moved down the main street, pushing protesters back. A branch of an insurance company was sprayed with graffiti reading “Macron in prison”.

Near Madeleine, another popular tourist area, a BNP bank was vandalized and an ATM machine pulled out of the wall. Graffiti was scrawled on the building reading “Macron the clown” and “Who sows misery reaps anger”. The nearby Dior and Chanel stores had their windows shattered.

In some areas there was very little police presence. Reuters reporters on the streets witnessed masked young men, one brandishing a crowbar, smashing up a police van and then setting it alight. Others stood on top of the vehicle in celebration.

Firemen arrived to douse the flames. But only minutes later, another group of young men arrived, and after failing to overturn the van they detonated firecrackers inside it, causing a series of explosions.

Tourists near the famed Galeries Lafayette department store were alarmed by the uncontrolled outpouring of violence.

 

“We went to the Galeries Lafayette as we thought we would be safe there but then we were evacuated by staff and security,” said Tina Holten, a 35-year-old visitor from Denmark. “We felt safe inside but now that we are outside we are very scared. We can’t find anywhere to go.”

On the Rue de la Paix, one of Paris’s most expensive shopping streets, Christmas trees were left smouldering after firemen put out at least three blazes. The jewelry stores and fashion boutiques were locked up, but the Christmas decorations on the street were still sparkling.

“The problem is that you just don’t know where it’s going to flare up next,” said Caroline Quevrain, a 23-year-old student. “It’s chaotic but the protesters wanted it that way.”

The U.S. embassy issued a statement urging citizens to be careful, saying that “violent clashes between police and protesters” continued in at least three of Paris’s 20 districts, known as arrondissements.

“Avoid all demonstrations, seek shelter in the vicinity of clashes, follow instructions of security personnel,” it said.

'Yellow vest' protesters in Paris clash with police

It was unclear what plans the police had to shut down the roving groups of protesters. Near the Arc de Triomphe, they moved in to try to control the violence, but in other areas of the city, there was next to no presence of security forces, although there were signs of the violence dying down.

It is the worst unrest Paris has seen since at least 2005, when the outskirts were in flames over tension between the police and the youth of the poor suburbs known as “banlieues”, demonstrating over the death of two young people.

Additional reporting by Sudip Kar-Gupta, Bate Felix and Leigh Thomas; Writing by Luke Baker; Editing by Peter Graff

 

Source:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-protests-violence/roving-gangs-of-yellow-vest-militants-set-heart-of-paris-ablaze-idUSKCN1O03N4?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Reuters%2FworldNews+(Reuters+World+News)

[Apech]

Just sharing this here although its off topic.  But then perhaps remembering our glorious past is relevant.

 

 

[Miffymog]

Hmmm, just woke up this morning to a mild shock.

 

The Daily Mail, typically a right leaning paper, has a main article trying to get it's readers to email their MP's to back May's deal. They've pampered to their readers for some time backing Brexit, but May's deal is a very weak Brexit at best, and at worst leaves us in a weaker position...

 

I have been getting a sense that as time goes on, it's more and more likely that Brexit will actually get overturned. If the Daily Mail has decided that May's deal is worth backing, it's possibly because they think that her deal is the only way we'll get any separation from the EU.

 

A large number of MP's keep going on about how they'll never allow a hard Brexit. This is a shame, as a smooth / transitioned hard Brexit is perfectly feasible and is possibly what some of the next Conservative leader candidates will promote as their selling points.

 

But, there just seem to be too many moderates in the Conservative party to allow this to actually happen,  and when their numbers are combined with Labour, a smooth hard Brexit just seems virtually impossible.

 

So that leaves May's deal as the only option for Leavers, the other option being fully remain.

 

Also, as time goes by, if there was to be another referendum, is does seem as though these two options are what would be on the ballot paper.

 

So, it's either May's deal, or remain. And her deal is quite poor and leaves us worse off than staying in the EU ...

[Patrick Brown]

Farage on Sunday:

 

 

[Patrick Brown]

10 minutes ago, Miffymog said:

Hmmm, just woke up this morning to a mild shock.

 

The Daily Mail, typically a right leaning paper, has a main article trying to get it's readers to email their MP's to back May's deal. They've pampered to their readers for some time backing Brexit, but May's deal is a very weak Brexit at best, and at worst leaves us in a weaker position...

 

This has been creeping in for a couple of weeks and is very suspicious almost like a conspiracy! Really does seem that people are being leaned on to tow the line which just shows how corrupt our government is.  

[Apech]

39 minutes ago, Patrick Brown said:

 

This has been creeping in for a couple of weeks and is very suspicious almost like a conspiracy! Really does seem that people are being leaned on to tow the line which just shows how corrupt our government is.  

 

i was told that the Editor of the daily Mail has changed and the new one is either pro-Europe or at least pro-may.  So it just proves the mainstream media is propaganda and what you read as fact is actually opinion.

[rene]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

... So it just proves the mainstream media is propaganda and what you read as fact is actually opinion.

Gee. Just like here.

[Patrick Brown]

35 minutes ago, rene said:

Gee. Just like here.

 

I haven't heard anyone mention Kunlun for years? 

[rideforever]

Who is going to do civil war ?
Nobody.
Was speaking to a 55yr old ex-builder (Brexit voter) said he doesn't care anymore.
Anyway ... it's quite easy.
Davis / Raab know exactly what to do.
In fact they were doing it until TM pushed them out to carry out her grand delusion.
From the start she had been saying nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, and now it transpires she wants to give them 40bn plus joint-sovereignty on N Ireland in return for nothing, with no ongoing trade deal agreed at all... wtf.  Intimidated much ?  It's her, she represents the fearmind of Remainers stocked up by the media.
Difficult to know what will happen but ... something will happen.
Probably ongoing for  one more year.
 

[Miffymog]

Both Davis and Raab and putting forwards a smooth transition hard Brexit. Their ideas could gain traction if it comes to a Conservative leadership challenge. But the feeling in my bones is that we're heading towards remaining ...

[Chang]

My own view is that those in favour of the U.K. remaining within the E.U. tyrany have been  shaken, frightened and enraged by the result of the previous referendum. It is still their wish that we have a second referendum in which the electorate that previously voted leave, now broken down and disillusioned by their pathetic and traitorous government, will either fail to vote or tick the box for remaining within the Cultural Marxist fold. Things are certainly moving in that direction.

 

They are aware that they have not yet reached the point of overbearing power where thay are confident enough to go against the will of the people with a feeling of confidence. Hence they still feel it necessary to gain the mandate of the people. But thay have to be sure of getting the result they so ernestly desire and so we have this desperate spewing forth of false news and disinformation to both confuse and frighten the common herd. But:--

 

"The man of independent mind

He looks an' laughs at all that."

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2018 by Chang

[Patrick Brown]

Well Farage looks as if he'll be leaving UKIP which doesn't really mean that much but is of interest as he was the cause of all this chaos, for better or worse!

 

Quote

Ukip’s leader, Gerard Batten, has been strongly backed by its national executive. The move will prevent yet another civil war for the party, but possibly hastening the exit of Nigel Farage, who has publicly despaired at the current hard-right stance.

Read In Full Here:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/02/controversial-ukip-leader-gerard-batten-backed-by-national-executive

[Apech]

3 hours ago, Patrick Brown said:

Well Farage looks as if he'll be leaving UKIP which doesn't really mean that much but is of interest as he was the cause of all this chaos, for better or worse!

 

Read In Full Here:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/02/controversial-ukip-leader-gerard-batten-backed-by-national-executive

 

I've listened to Batten and couldn't see much difference between him and Farage (except he seems more open to Tommy Robinson et al) - so suspect this is a storm in a tea cup.

[rideforever]

Brexit has already been successful at shaking people up and creating loathing for the EU and politicians, that can only be a good thing.
Today at 230 pm the Government's legal advisor will be questioned by MPs on how much sovereignty in N.Ireland will be given to the EU.

https://calendar.parliament.uk/

[Chang]

The French are always quick to take to the streets to voice their discontend. 

 

With the continued development of the E.U. Army one has to be mindful that such forces are more likely to be used against the citizens of member states rather than a foreign aggressor. In the not too distant future we could well see German troops thrashing Frenchies in the streets of Paris. Whilst this would be a source of great amusement to Englishmen of my ilk we should remind ourselves that continued involvement in the European Tyrany puts us at risk should we fail to tow the line of our European masters.

[Apech]

8 minutes ago, Chang said:

The French are always quick to take to the streets to voice their discontend. 

 

With the continued development of the E.U. Army one has to be mindful that such forces are more likely to be used against the citizens of member states rather than a foreign aggressor. In the not too distant future we could well see German troops thrashing Frenchies in the streets of Paris. Whilst this would be a source of great amusement to Englishmen of my ilk we should remind ourselves that continued involvement in the European Tyrany puts us at risk should we fail to tow the line of our European masters.

 

 

I see Trumps Space Force on the same level as EU Army - a politicians wet dream.

 

 

[rideforever]

J*******zus.   What is it with fluorescent yellow jackets ?   Is everybody a total coward, afraid of a mouse.
Don't they know that people walked to the South bloody Pole, swam the channel, went to the Mariana Trench, went up in goddam space.
You want safety gear to .... go for a walk.
J******zus C****************

This is degenerattion.
I even see these little groups of toddler taken to the park wearing this junk, like life is terrifying.
My god, how much can you destroy people's lives before they even have a chance.
We need Duterte.
Or maybe I should live in PI.

 

[Patrick Brown]

13 minutes ago, Chang said:

The French are always quick to take to the streets to voice their discontend. 

 

With the continued development of the E.U. Army one has to be mindful that such forces are more likely to be used against the citizens of member states rather than a foreign aggressor. In the not too distant future we could well see German troops thrashing Frenchies in the streets of Paris. Whilst this would be a source of great amusement to Englishmen of my ilk we should remind ourselves that continued involvement in the European Tyrany puts us at risk should we fail to tow the line of our European masters.

 

 

Yes that's a very good point and a frightening one but we also have the strong possibility of being dragged into a war, as a member of the EU, when we have no beef with anyone. So have the EU heads got their eyes on Russia's Oil and Gas? Well it's also a gateway to China!! The quicker we distance ourselves from these\ EU loonies the better.

 

I think the French are waking up as well and they're way more knackered than we could ever be, how the hell are they going to extract themselves from these dictators?  

[Apech]

13 minutes ago, Patrick Brown said:

 

Yes that's a very good point and a frightening one but we also have the strong possibility of being dragged into a war, as a member of the EU, when we have no beef with anyone. So have the EU heads got their eyes on Russia's Oil and Gas? Well it's also a gateway to China!! The quicker we distance ourselves from these\ EU loonies the better.

 

I think the French are waking up as well and they're way more knackered than we could ever be, how the hell are they going to extract themselves from these dictators?  

 

You gave me visions of Angela Merkel rolling across the Steppes in her Panzer - 'this time there will be no Stalingrad!'.

[Chang]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

I see Trumps Space Force on the same level as EU Army - a politicians wet dream.

 

 

 

I would love to think that you are right Apech but greatly fear that you are wrong.

 

The E.U. Army will come into being and will be used as a final resort to bully and control those E.U. countries that do not do as they are

told.

 

Obviously it will be a Fred Karno outfit and will be no threat to world powers such as Russia, for dealing with internal conflict however it will fit the bill wonderfully.

 

The common herd however simply do not see the dangers and will follow along like lambs to the slaughter.

 

To be brutally honest I have pretty much given up all hope as regards my countrymen whom I now view as weak, pathetic and deserving of the European Union. As we slide towards the nadir and the fear mongering increases its intensity I can see no hope for other than acceptance of Prime Drip May's deal, a General Election resulting in a Labour government or a second referendum. It is all looking grim but there may yet be a few laughs along the way.

[Patrick Brown]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

You gave me visions of Angela Merkel rolling across the Steppes in her Panzer - 'this time there will be no Stalingrad!'.

 

Well even though Chang's not convinced, not that I'm try to convince anyone, Germany does have a habit of keep trying to build empires. I mean what is the EU? Err an invention of the Germans? So can we ask why? And don't say it's to protect Europe as that's just too funny!   

 

[rideforever]

I would prefer Germany building an empire than Bureaucrats.   Germany has many good qualities, although sense of humour is lacking.

[Apech]

15 minutes ago, rideforever said:

I would prefer Germany building an empire than Bureaucrats.   Germany has many good qualities, although sense of humour is lacking.

 

As they have demonstrated through the 20th century?

[Miffymog]

3 hours ago, Patrick Brown said:

 

Well even though Chang's not convinced, not that I'm try to convince anyone, Germany does have a habit of keep trying to build empires. I mean what is the EU? Err an invention of the Germans? So can we ask why? And don't say it's to protect Europe as that's just too funny!   

 

 

 

Germany loves the EU as it artificially keeps down the value of their currency - to the detriment of the other countries keeping it down.

 

Based on the Germans I've met, they both work hard and are skilled. But if you work harder and are more skilled than other countries, you become more successful and the value of your currency (if you have your own one) goes too high and your exports become too expensive for other people to buy.

 

This was the eternal problem with the Duetsche Mark, which was beautifully solved by the Euro. And, the added benefit is that you end up having all the other countries of the same currency in your pocket - win/win if you're Germany.

 

 

 

 

[rideforever]

Some good news, I ... think.
Seems UK can unilaterally revoke Article 50, which is much better than if the EU was involved in that then we would be between a rock and a hard place ... it strengthens our hand and always good to have a plan Z.

Other good thing is that everyone seems to have cottoned on to N.Ireland being under permanent EU jurisdiction under the proposed deal, which I am happy about .... clarity is always good.

It's also quite sunny today !!!

As for Germany !  Well Brits seem much closer to the Germans in certain ways then to the French for instance, shame they never got it together imo.