s1va

It's a moving target - there is no goal post

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I don't think there is a point where we stop or reach an end goal post like enlightenment, nirvana or moksha, etc.  The spiritual growth is like the expansion of this universe.  It's been going on from the time of creation (or start of bigbang) and it will continue.  The same is the case for jivas or individuals also.  All of us are expanding to various levels each day and all the time.  Even if we expand to become everything there is, that 'everything there' is ever growing and we grow with it.

 

Perhaps until the time we dissolve into the Emptiness or Dao.  Like the universe shrinking into what it was before bigbang.  Then, another explosion and expansion, and so on....

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a drop of water doesn't dissolve or evaporate when it is in the ocean which it never really left.

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The point is, the drop of water needs to conciously realize it is the ever expanding ocean.  As long as it conciously knows it only as a drop of water, that is what it pretty much is.

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for there to be an ever expanding ocean (as you say) it has to have measurable size for such an expansion to proceed.

The Self has no measurable size such as big, small, or expanding from an existing point A to a new point B.

 

also when the Self (or water in the analogy) realizes its nature (which is an idea kind of that blows the mind) it also realizes the nature of a so called ocean which is the same.  Thus I would change the previously submitted analogy to something like, when the drop of water is identified as something other than water that is pretty much what it thinks it is.  (even though it really is water)

Edited by 3bob
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Universe does not have measurable size at any given point and yet it is always expanding.  Just like that.

 

If your definition of Self cannot expand, then I guess I may not be talking about the Self.  Could be something else.

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22 hours ago, Marblehead said:

True, there is no goal; it is a process.

 

The goal or purpose is the joy. The goal is in the process. The joy is in the journey.

You're never complete, but that doesn't mean you're not always perfect.

Edited by Everything
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1 hour ago, Everything said:

The goal or purpose is the joy. The goal is in the process. The joy is in the journey.

You're never complete, but that doesn't mean you're not always perfect.

Sure, accept pleasure, avoid pain.  There doesn't even have to be a goal.  It is, after all, the journey.  We grow with each new experience.  I'm not going to claim perfection though.  (or of expert or master.)  Just some guy trying to make it through another day.

 

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1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

Sure, accept pleasure, avoid pain.  There doesn't even have to be a goal.  It is, after all, the journey.  We grow with each new experience.  I'm not going to claim perfection though.  (or of expert or master.)  Just some guy trying to make it through another day.

 

Rather allow the pleasure so that you can continue the journey in a joyoush way. Allow pain to heal itself as it always does. Allow your purpose to naturally arise out of the present moment, for it always does. Allow yourself to always be perfect as and where you are, for you always are. And anticipate the wonderful next moment that is always gonna be more than all that you've ever allowed yourself to become, for you always will, and bless every step that led to the next for the eternal perfection that it always is, for it always has been and always will be. And allow the journey to be eternal, for it always will be, always has been and is right now. And allow yourself to flow with it, for no other reason than that it feels absolutely wonderfully good to do so. For there is no purpose other than the purpose that feels absolutely the best, that is always your highest truth and purpose, and there is no other purpose, so nothing less will ever hold up against the fullest truth of your ever expanding truth of ever fulfillment. 

Edited by Everything
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5 hours ago, s1va said:

Universe does not have measurable size at any given point and yet it is always expanding.  Just like that.

 

If your definition of Self cannot expand, then I guess I may not be talking about the Self.  Could be something else.

 

could be... and I took the ocean analogy to imply much more than just the physical universe which is very small. (and ideas about the speed of light which is very slow)

Edited by 3bob

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13 hours ago, Everything said:

Allow pain to heal itself as it always does. Allow your purpose to naturally arise out of the present moment, for it always does.

Yeah, but I feel there are things "I" can do to prevent and cure pain.  When the singers get out of harmony we should stop and start over again after a short break.  Harmonious flow is much better than smashing into giant boulders or going over a waterfall.

 

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3 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, but I feel there are things "I" can do to prevent and cure pain.  When the singers get out of harmony we should stop and start over again after a short break.  Harmonious flow is much better than smashing into giant boulders or going over a waterfall.

 

Hehe yeah, true dat. And even the chaos can be a source of new inspiration. I forgot the name of the composer of pirates of the carribean, he tells the entire orchestra to make random incoherent disharmonious noises. And then the composer feels for something and begins to hear new music in the chaos of all those random sounds. Super funny and interesting method. And the result is obviously amazing.

Perhaps the chaos can also be a break unto itself. A reset. A clearing of the tuner of your focus. I always play disharmony and discord to reset my inner ear as I focus on the subtle sound of the new more relevant now felt music I can hear in my imagination or feel as I am focusing on the thing I am intending to compose the music for. 

Pain can be a wonderful distraction from what you don't want. Only when people insist that they do want it, well, the pain continues. 

 

Edited by Everything
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4 minutes ago, Everything said:

Hehe yeah, true dat. And even the chaos can be a source of new inspiration. I forgot the name of the composer of pirates of the carribean, he tells the entire orchestra to make random incoherent disharmonious noises. And then the composer feels for something and begins to hear new music in the chaos of all those random sounds. Super funny and interesting method. And the result is obviously amazing.

Yeah, neat that.  Give me something I don't want then I can tell you what I want.

 

And agree about chaos.  Chaos tells us that it is time to sit down and shut up.

 

 

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So, what's the goal? I read it's joining the ka and the ba and other strange names and not forgetting lives after death. I don't know if that's the goal I should have but it's a goal for some, is it ridiculous sounding? 

 

I don't like much when people talk about pleasure and joy, I think that's for drug seekers :lol:, consciously put yourself in deep pain, eat horribly and try to find the emptiness and dao, that is a great goal

 

Note: don't come to me all serious, I don't know shit :blush:

 

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2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, neat that.  Give me something I don't want then I can tell you what I want.

 

And agree about chaos.  Chaos tells us that it is time to sit down and shut up.

 

 

Yeah, I've heard it said, the less you ask questions, the more you are capable of receiving the answer. 

 

Today I got a warning for doing something I didn't do.

I could dwell on injustice for an eternity. But

Injustice always brings into awareness the desire for justice. Fairness, honesty. Clarity. Wisdom. Kindness. Openness. Sharing. Trueness. Authenticity. Acceptance. Deep connection. Respect, allowance. Trust. Dependance. Stability. Honor.

 

So if I can co-create with all those things I know now more than ever I want, with even greater clarity than I've ever allowed myself to know before, thanks to the blessed experience of injustice that is perfect in its reawakening of my desire for these things and reawakening of my ability to flow with them, naturally, as it feels good to do so. Then what would be the reason for me to continue to dwell upon and co-create with injustice? None whatsoever. Because injustice will ALWAYS be there to remind me of what I do want. It is eternal. So might aswell honor it's reason for existing and choose to experience eternity as justice, honesty and fairness. That is super easy. You just focus more on what you want. 

I just let people go about their ways of injustice and choose something better for my self. For I can never make decisions for another. I cannot limit anyones freedom without limitting my own in the process. But I can become more of what I want and thus live life with what I want. Regardless of what is happening around me that has no influence on me and my ability to decide for myself. 

Everytime a criminal gets punished, the very idea that they are bad, wrong, guilty, unworthy, is maintained and fueled. This then can become their very source for all of their criminal activity.

Judgement can make a good person a criminal. Just like a doctor can make a healthy person sick, simply by telling them they are sick, even when they are not. 

I know a woman diagnosed with cancer who decided to just enjoy life and not take it seriously at all, just going through life for no reason than relaxing and enjoying and doing whatever feels good to them and they enjoy. And appreciating all the good things in life. No resistance whatsoever. She never died of cancer and is just enjoying life. 

The same with a dude who never got told that they cannot grow their teeth again, after they lose it. So he got his teeth smacked out in prison. And he grew new teeth. He taught that was normal. That all people do that all of the time. 

 

People say that ignorance is bliss. But the most ignorant of all, is to call the very knowledge you have been looking for all of your life: "ignorant." 

Every judgement you make is about the relationship between you and your soul, and nothing and no one else. That is why no one will ever feel good while at the same time judging people. You cannot judge anyone unless you become the very thing you are judging. 

But the reason human made law exists, is for the purpose of balancing extreme inbalances. Extreme karma. 

It exists to give power to victims in a more dilluted way. Like a filter to the life force that has to be received in a more dilluted way so as to not burn out the victims. For criminals are never victims, and will always have more power than victims. So a victim can learn allot from a criminal. And they can grow allot in that experience as they see how the criminal always gets the better hand in life than the victim. So they decide then to step into their own power aswell. And then they can finally learn to properly use that power, just like the criminal is learning to do so aswell. 

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25 minutes ago, King Jade said:

So, what's the goal? I read it's joining the ka and the ba and other strange names and not forgetting lives after death. I don't know if that's the goal I should have but it's a goal for some, is it ridiculous sounding? 

 

I don't like much when people talk about pleasure and joy, I think that's for drug seekers :lol:, consciously put yourself in deep pain, eat horribly and try to find the emptiness and dao, that is a great goal

 

Note: don't come to me all serious, I don't know shit :blush:

 

You are not alone in misunderstanding joy. For the people who use drugs are doing so from a place of powerlessness, despair, fear, grief, depression. They find relief in all distractions from that intense pain that is the complete opposite of the joy you will always desire to have, for you cannot become less than your true nature, without becoming sick. 

And always if you let go of the path of trying too hard in life, you naturally allow life to work out for you more in your favor. So these distractions like extreme examples of drugs alcohol, or less harmful distractions like entertainment which can even be beneficial as a distraction.

So most people who are drug addicts would for example benefit greatly from a subscription of UFC mixed martial arts entertainment. There they can be inspired to their power of abstinance as they witness the very contagious example of top athletes who are effirtlessly and passionately capable of enduring tremendous pain and maintain perfect performance and stability in the face of the greatest challenge. In a very inspiring and fun way. 

So then you would move closer to the joy you seek, but still a long way from it. 

For every ufc fighter needs to learn when to stop fighting. That is the next step to the joy you seek of your uncinditionally worthy nature.

 

But for an average person just practicing contentment is a big step that can slingshot them to their ability to see the true possibilities that life holds for them. And when they enter that, everything works out perfectly to give rise to the joy they seek. 

 

What do you mean with ka ba, by the way? Do you mean the the big stone in mecca that muslims circle around? 

Edited by Everything
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14 minutes ago, Everything said:

You are not alone in misunderstanding joy. For the people who use drugs are doing so from a place of powerlessness, despair, fear, grief, depression. They find relief in all distractions from that intense pain that is the complete opposite of the joy you will always desire to have, for you cannot become less than your true nature, without becoming sick. 

And always if you let go of the path of trying too hard in life, you naturally allow life to work out for you more in your favor. So these distractions like extreme examples of drugs alcohol, or less harmful distractions like entertainment which can even be beneficial as a distraction.

So most people who are drug addicts would for example benefit greatly from a subscription of UFC mixed martial arts entertainment. There they can be inspired to their power of abstinance as they witness the very contagious example of top athletes who are effirtlessly and passionately capable of enduring tremendous pain and maintain perfect performance and stability in the face of the greatest challenge. In a very inspiring and fun way. 

So then you would move closer to the joy you seek, but still a long way from it. 

For every ufc fighter needs to learn when to stop fighting. That is the next step to the joy you seek of your uncinditionally worthy nature.

 

But for an average person just practicing contentment is a big step that can slingshot them to their ability to see the true possibilities that life holds for them. And when they enter that, everything works out perfectly to give rise to the joy you seek. 

 

What do you mean with ka ba, by the way? Do you mean the the big stone in mecca that muslims circle around? 

 

I'm talking about bliss and joy arising from meditation practices and other brain drug release trickery, I just want emptiness in my meditations thanks, none of that bliss and orgasms and feeling happy stuff 

 

The text I read says ka is the energy body, ba is like the memory body and then you do the stirring with a big ol pot and you live for ever and ever until the end of times and when you get to the end of times you go back to the beginning and live for ever and ever :blink:

Edited by King Jade

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7 minutes ago, King Jade said:

 

I'm talking about bliss and joy arising from meditation practices and other brain drug release trickery 

 

The text I read says ka is the energy body, ba is like the memory body and then you do the stirring with a big ol pot and you live for ever and ever.

Ah yes exactly, that is exactly what joy is. Learn to bring the joyoush nature of your non-physical eternalsoul to come out and play in this physical life, which then the energy vibration of the life force you allow to flow through you fully in the moments you feel like joy, then heals your body, brings it into perfect alignment, and it becomes something your body then addopts as a memory of it is now always available. Just like muscle memory, you can develop negative habbits and positive habbits.

Except the trickery is in the mistrust of your bodies own ability to be the perfect nature that it is, which then blocks the joyoush energy of your soul from fully flowing and benefitting your entire body. 

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12 minutes ago, King Jade said:

 

 when you get to the end of times you go back to the beginning and live for ever and ever :blink:

Ok that end of times is an analogy to point at an experience that is far up ahead as a possibility in your future, pointed towards and described in such a way that you can still sort of get a vague idea of what that experience may look like from your current point of view. 

 

It doesn't mean that time is gonna end. You may choose to experience it differently from that point of view. In a way that is more in harmony with your true nature. Such as the idea that everything exists here and now. Thats all. Doesn't mean you can't still and wont still allow yourself to experience a linear framework. But instead of time you will be more focused on sequency, synchronisity and timing. Being at the right place at the right time, as you walk in full harmony and alignment with your full nature as a perfectly blended being, of physical and non-physical, together in harmony and this alignment is indicated by the joy you would be feeling then. 

Edited by Everything
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6 minutes ago, King Jade said:

 

I'm talking about bliss and joy arising from meditation practices and other brain drug release trickery, I just want emptiness in my meditations thanks, none of that bliss and orgasms and feeling happy stuff 

 

The text I read says ka is the energy body, ba is like the memory body and then you do the stirring with a big ol pot and you live for ever and ever until the end of times and when you get to the end of times you go back to the beginning and live for ever and ever :blink:

 

please don't mind my interjection but the Historic Buddha also made a description as being the, "Wonder of wonders..." thus 

superceding Hamlet's line of speculation:

"To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles
And by opposing end them. To die—to sleep,
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to: 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep, perchance to dream—ay, there's the rub:

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3 hours ago, King Jade said:

Note: don't come to me all serious, I don't know shit :blush:

Funny.  but at least you are trying.

 

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I get what's being suggested in the OP and it's a valid and worthwhile perspective.

I don't mean to denigrate that position.

Reading it, I noticed my habitual tendency to look at the contrary position, which in itself was instructive; and I'd like to share what came up.

My perspective is that the "goal post" and the process, which in the teachings I follow is referred to as resting in the Nature of Mind, is alway perfectly clear and still.

It has never moved, it is changeless essence, unborn, undying, boundless, centerless; stillness, silence, and spaciousness...

The mind is that which is always moving, expanding, contracting, searching, growing, departing, and arriving.

When we allow that one to fully rest and gain confidence and stability with that, it may settle into it's essence, like silt settling in still water, from which it has never for a moment departed.

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14 hours ago, steve said:

I get what's being suggested in the OP and it's a valid and worthwhile perspective.

I don't mean to denigrate that position.

Reading it, I noticed my habitual tendency to look at the contrary position, which in itself was instructive; and I'd like to share what came up.

My perspective is that the "goal post" and the process, which in the teachings I follow is referred to as resting in the Nature of Mind, is alway perfectly clear and still.

It has never moved, it is changeless essence, unborn, undying, boundless, centerless; stillness, silence, and spaciousness...

The mind is that which is always moving, expanding, contracting, searching, growing, departing, and arriving.

When we allow that one to fully rest and gain confidence and stability with that, it may settle into it's essence, like silt settling in still water, from which it has never for a moment departed.

 

It is also the mind that defines some perceptional state as changeless essence, unborn, boundless... To me, the danger of this position is that the mind can grasp upon such an perceptional view and declare “done” or arrived. These two diffent sides of the equation, is why I find the Heart Sutra so beautiful and sublime.

 

As the Heart sutra states... Form is emptiness, but Emptiness is also form.  Everything dissolves down to nothing, but also nothing expands out to everything. Always infinite potential in that empty bucket. 

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14 hours ago, steve said:

I get what's being suggested in the OP and it's a valid and worthwhile perspective.

I don't mean to denigrate that position.

Reading it, I noticed my habitual tendency to look at the contrary position, which in itself was instructive; and I'd like to share what came up.

My perspective is that the "goal post" and the process, which in the teachings I follow is referred to as resting in the Nature of Mind, is alway perfectly clear and still.

It has never moved, it is changeless essence, unborn, undying, boundless, centerless; stillness, silence, and spaciousness...

The mind is that which is always moving, expanding, contracting, searching, growing, departing, and arriving.

When we allow that one to fully rest and gain confidence and stability with that, it may settle into it's essence, like silt settling in still water, from which it has never for a moment departed.

 

This is certainly a valid perspective also.  From my limited understating and with some minor glimpses I got, what Jeff explained above makes perfect sense to me.  I feel what you mentioned perhaps covers only one part of the that equation in the Heart sutra.  The form is Emptiness.  When we consider the whole equation, then the infinite expansion makes sense.

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