voidisyinyang Posted April 17, 2019 On 4/15/2019 at 7:07 PM, Limahong said: Hi voidisyinyang, Are you into Prakriti and Purusha? Good choice of membership image-name ~ Void is yin (and) yang... - Anand. Seife is wrongly conflating Western math with Daoism - why? Because he does not understand noncommutative phase logic. It's about his paygrade probably. I read his book on "Zero" - but that was over 10 years ago. So zero is actually "negative infinity" but it does depend how the "one" is defined. It's actually defined as an "X" assuming a logarithmic squared origin. This is from the wrong music theory. So that is how the Greek Continuum was created - and we are all taught this in Western math - so it's hard-wired into people. So they have no idea what noncommutative phase logic could even be - nor that noncommutative phase logic is the secret of Daoist harmonics (and the three gunas), etc. There are a few scientists who have figured this out. I've corresponded with several. There's a couple scientists in the Netherlands - and then Nobel physicist Brian Josephson, and math professor Louis Kauffman (and the originator was Martial artist Wing Chun teacher Eddie Oshins as Stanford Linear Accelerator Center). So what is funny is that the materialist skeptics get mad about New Agers conflating "quantum" with Daoism - when in fact the materialist skeptics don't know quantum physics well enough to know better! I had to figure this out after 10 years of reading one scholarly book a day! Pretty fascinating journey actually. First I figured out the noncommutative phase secret on my own - from Alain Connes - but I realized SOMEBODY must have connected it to Daoism - not just me. Then I discovered Eddie Oshins - he was the only other one. I discovered him in 2015 - and posted it on this website. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OldDog Posted April 17, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Bindi said: A Chinese model of cognition : the Neiye, fourth century B.C.E. by Fabien Simonis Yes, I downloaded and read pp 52-56. Seems entirely consistent with other sources I have encountered that have informed my understanding. This is a great find and I look forward to reading it in its entirety. This thread is taking me in a direction of study different from what I was intending. But I find the subject compelling and will happily follow. I think I should look into the writings of Roth and Pregadio on these subject. When the student is ready, the teacher appears. Thanks for the link! Edited April 17, 2019 by OldDog Correcting the Autocorrections 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted April 17, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, OldDog said: This thread is taking me in a direction of study different from what I was intending. But I find the subject compelling and will happily follow. Hi OldDog, I too can/will shield away some layers of conditioning after meeting some people. Very nice feel to know that lots more will be unfolding like the petals of the chakras. - Anand Edited April 17, 2019 by Limahong Enhance ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lifeforce Posted April 17, 2019 (edited) . Edited April 25, 2019 by lifeforce 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OldDog Posted April 17, 2019 13 hours ago, Bindi said: A Chinese model of cognition I went to sleep last night with this on my mind. The title is particularly intriguing for me as I have a modest interest in cognitive science. My own sense of cognition is still in development but i have long felt that there is something missing.The notion of a "Chinese model" ... as distinct from a generalized human model ... sounds promising. The generalized human model is a western one that is heavily influenced by science. The thing that gives the Chinese model of cognition some promise for me is potential for similarity to the way TCM looks at the organs of the body ... not as objects in specific locations but as systems whose functions are distributed. This was alluded to in the few pages I read. Fairly excited. I begin a full reading today. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted April 17, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, OldDog said: The thing that gives the Chinese model of cognition some promise for me is potential for similarity to the way TCM looks at the organs of the body ... not as objects in specific locations but as systems whose functions are distributed. Hi OldDog, Yes ~ system thinking. In terms of outcomes, a system can be more than the sum of its parts. Systems theory is the interdisciplinary study of systems. A system is a cohesive conglomeration of interrelated and interdependent parts that is either natural or man-made. Every system is delineated by its spatial and temporal boundaries, surrounded and influenced by its environment, described by its structure and purpose or nature and expressed in its functioning. In terms of its effects, a system can be more than the sum of its parts if it expresses synergy or emergent behavior. - Wikipedia Can the Tao be considered a system with Yin and Yang as its parts thus...? If Yin and Yang are looked upon as 'negative/postive' energy, is the Tao more than energy? Perhaps the Tao is closer to synergy? In system thinking, synergy can be mentally thought of as ~ '1 + 1 > 2'. How can/do we aligned synergy with Chapter 42? - Anand Edited April 17, 2019 by Limahong Enhance ... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted April 18, 2019 4 hours ago, Limahong said: Hi OldDog, Yes ~ system thinking. In terms of outcomes, a system can be more than the sum of its parts. Systems theory is the interdisciplinary study of systems. A system is a cohesive conglomeration of interrelated and interdependent parts that is either natural or man-made. Every system is delineated by its spatial and temporal boundaries, surrounded and influenced by its environment, described by its structure and purpose or nature and expressed in its functioning. In terms of its effects, a system can be more than the sum of its parts if it expresses synergy or emergent behavior. - Wikipedia Can the Tao be considered a system with Yin and Yang as its parts thus...? If Yin and Yang are looked upon as 'negative/postive' energy, is the Tao more than energy? Perhaps the Tao is closer to synergy? In system thinking, synergy can be mentally thought of as ~ '1 + 1 > 2'. How can/do we aligned synergy with Chapter 42? - Anand the 1 expands - so the 2 is the same "pitch" as the octave but the frequency is more than double. So the numbers are actually from music theory. That's why it's called the Single Perfect Fifth - it's a different frequency but the ear hears the same pitch relative to the "one." The reason it is not the same as Western systems thinking is because systems theory science assumes a symmetric logistics equation math. The nonwestern Daoist harmonics is asymmetric or complementary opposites. So this is not Western tuning but rather Daoist harmonics tuning or Pythagorean tuning - notice the Pitch is the Same - consider "C" as the One. But as it expands then there are suffix symbols added - asterix and X and Flat and Sharp... But they are all C from the One. So the "two" is actually expanded or contracted as the same pitch of the one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted April 18, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, voidisyinyang said: the 1 expands - so the 2 is the same "pitch"... Hi voidisyinyang, When it comes to synergy, I have only 'parts' in mind. For better clarity, I will rephrase... Synergy (may or may not) => ONE part + ONE part > TWO parts. When there is synergy, where is 'TWO parts'? - Anand Edited April 18, 2019 by Limahong Enhance ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OldDog Posted April 18, 2019 16 hours ago, Limahong said: Yes ~ system thinking. In terms of outcomes, a system can be more than the sum of its parts. Oddly, I had not directly thought of it the way you describe it but subconsciously must have implied it since "systems thinking" was such a big part of my IT career. But i absolutely agree with the notion that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. It happens around us all the time in various activites ... e.g., sports, music. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OldDog Posted April 18, 2019 11 hours ago, voidisyinyang said: So the numbers are actually from music theory. I have no doubt that what you say is true ... I just don't see it. Wish I could ... But I don't. I love music but I have never been able to grasp music theory very well. That you speak about it so passionately is inspiring. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OldDog Posted April 18, 2019 16 hours ago, Limahong said: How can/do we aligned synergy with Chapter 42? I am not sure I understand your question. I take it to mean ... How can the notion of synergy be shown in light of the current discussion in this thread? One way, I think, is in the results of the Neiye practice. Trying to use your line of reasoning ... If you consider that the heart-mind can have two states ... The active busy state which does a pretty good job of dealing with the physical world ... and a quiescent state that is capable of approaching Dao and understanding how the world changes, are not those two states capable to acting synergistically ... producing a better balanced individual with a more effective way of dealing with the world? Perhaps that's a stretch ... but it seems to be not an unreasonable way of thinking about it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted April 18, 2019 20 hours ago, Limahong said: If Yin and Yang are looked upon as 'negative/postive' energy, is the Tao more than energy? Perhaps the Tao is closer to synergy? YinYang is just "Polarity". YinYang is not a symmetrical pairing of two complimentary "forces" or physical "things" of any kind. YinYang is asymmetrical. A "symmetrical polarity" is not a Polarity. It's a "balance", and YinYang is not "balance". Yang is Movement, Yin is Stasis. - Zhou Dunyi wrote that as proof. For example - Light/Dark is a YinYang polarity. That means Dark is not the symmetrical "opposite" of Light. Rather, Dark is the absence of Light. Light is "vibration" which mean "Movement". Dark is not a "Movement" at all. Left/Right is a YinYang polarity, but the left and right sides of the body are not symmetrical and have different organs. Observe this asymmetry down to a quantum level - then you will see the stuff VIYY is writing about. Here is an interesting quote from about 220 yrs ago: "When we say that the Great Ultimate divides itself and becomes Yin and Yang, and that Yin and Yang join to one another and form the Great Ultimate, we mean that it is One but they are Two, they are Two but it is One." - Liu Yiming, Xiuzhen biannan (Discussions on the Cultivation of Reality, 1798) Notice "It (the "One") is One but they (Polarity) are Two". The One never really physically "divides itself" or "bifurcates" to exhibit Polarity (Two). It is and stays "One". -VonKrankenhaus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted April 18, 2019 (edited) Here is Zhou Dunyi's TaiJiTu, from almost 1000 yrs ago: This shows asymmetry of YinYang while maintaining YinYang polarity between both sides of diagram. He is using Fire and Water Trigrams to show Polarity. Wu Xing is shown this way because Yin phases on right, Yang phases on left. Tiny center circle inside Fire/Water Trigrams is still shown whole - One didn't "split" into Two Things. One HAS or EXHIBITS polarity, not "IS" polarity. -VonKrankenhaus Edited April 18, 2019 by vonkrankenhaus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted April 18, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said: The One never really physically "divides itself" or "bifurcates" to exhibit Polarity (Two). It is and stays "One". 1 hour ago, vonkrankenhaus said: One HAS or EXHIBITS polarity, not "IS" polarity. Hi vonkranenhaus, When I decided to engage myself with this thread, I jumped on its bandwagon with an inclusive open mindset hoping to meet kindred souls on a road less traveled... When I accept One as the known Brahman... ... I am also mindful of the unknown Brahman. I am a wandering star... When One comes before polarity and 'known' is words, what is 'unknown'? I am also a wondering star... A Blessed Easter to ALL! - Anand Edited April 18, 2019 by Limahong Enhance ... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted April 18, 2019 27 minutes ago, Limahong said: If 'known' is words Not sure if it is. Embryo in womb experiences and knows. But not Words. To "know" is not merely to "gain" words. In the polarity Known/Unknown, the Unknown is not the symmetric physical "opposite" of the Known. It is the absence of the Known or of Knowing. -VonKrankenhaus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted April 18, 2019 1 minute ago, vonkrankenhaus said: Embryo in womb experiences and knows. Hi vonkrankenhaus, But now that I am out of the womb, I don't know what I don't know. - Anand Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted April 18, 2019 16 minutes ago, Limahong said: Hi vonkrankenhaus, But now that I am out of the womb, I don't know what I don't know. - Anand I think you just made his point... your "don't know" is the absence of knowing. Does it help if one of us said, we know what you don't know ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted April 18, 2019 (edited) on second thought... Edited April 18, 2019 by silent thunder Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted April 18, 2019 12 minutes ago, dawei said: Does it help if one of us said, we know what you don't know ? Hi dawei, It is now 4+am at my end and I know it is time for me to sleep. Good night. - Anand Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted April 18, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, silent thunder said: on second thought... Hi Creighton, Zzzzzzz ~ now dreaming - no thought. Don't disturb. - Anand Edited April 19, 2019 by Limahong Enhance ... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted April 18, 2019 38 minutes ago, dawei said: Does it help if one of us said, we know what you don't know ? Then what I wrote would be true for you. If you know, then "known". If you do not know, then "un-known". And either way, Known is not the symmetrical opposite of Unknown. Just like Movement is not the symmetrical opposite of Stasis. Stasis is the absence of Movement. Whether it is you that Move, or Me, or Not. -VonKrankenhaus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted April 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Limahong said: But now that I am out of the womb, I don't know what I don't know. Just like inside the womb. -VonKrankenhaus 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OldDog Posted April 18, 2019 @Limahong You didn't finish it. A specialist is one who knows more and more about less and less, until ... ... finally he knows nothing at all. Or, at least that's the way I always heard it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted April 19, 2019 14 minutes ago, OldDog said: You didn't finish it. Good morning OldDog, Let us finish the specialist off ~ good and proper... "A specialist is one who knows more and more about less and less, until ... finally he knows nothing at all... because he knows everything about nothing when he lost his Way" On 8/25/2018 at 3:22 AM, dawei said: Way gave birth to one, and one gave birth to two. Two gave birth to three, But since nothing is 'zero'... The specialist gave birth to none, and none gave birth to two. With none, his two gave birth to zero... ? So a specialist spans from none to zero... and since 1 and 0 are not found digitally in no. 42, let us have him nailed as a non-Taoist. But as today is Easter ... the specialist is resurrected... Happy Easter! - Anand Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted April 19, 2019 3 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said: Just like inside the womb. Hi vonkrankenhaus, Outside the womb. Inside the ~ tomb. No ~ bloom. Only gloom. Get me a new broom. I want some ~ room. - Anand Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
