dawei

[DDJ Meaning] Chapter 42

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3 hours ago, dawei said:

Curiously, I didn't find 'three' in any other ancient chinese cosmology models.  

 

Perhaps not in cosmology models per se. But I did a quick search through several texts I have in electronic form, including Laozi, Zhuangzi, Liezi and the Wilhelm/Baynes I Ching. I found many examples of the use of three as adjective and as a proper noun.

 

It has just always struck me that such use of three seems disproportionally frequent. Maybe there is nothing to it.

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3 hours ago, dawei said:

 

I didn't see the Neiye as suggesting a practice of cleansing but regulating and maintaining/calming/settling.    

 

Ok, I read it as do the necessary work and the heart will then return to its natural state eg.

 

7 If you are able to cast off sorrow, happiness,

8 joy, anger, desire and profit-seeking,

9 Your Heart will return to its natural flow

 

11 The Way's sensation:

12 How can you be in tune with its sound?

13 Cultivate your Heart and you will resonate in tune.

14 The Way thereby can be attained

 

1 The Way has no fixed position;

2 In the cultivated Heart, it gracefully abides.

3 When the heart is calm and Energy aligned

4 The Way can thereby repose.

 

I take "cultivate" as casting off "sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, desire and profit-seeking." When the heart returns to its natural flow, it should then effortlessly resonate with the Way/Dao. 

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7 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Ok, I read it as do the necessary work and the heart will then return to its natural state eg.

 

7 If you are able to cast off sorrow, happiness,

8 joy, anger, desire and profit-seeking,

9 Your Heart will return to its natural flow

 

11 The Way's sensation:

12 How can you be in tune with its sound?

13 Cultivate your Heart and you will resonate in tune.

14 The Way thereby can be attained

 

1 The Way has no fixed position;

2 In the cultivated Heart, it gracefully abides.

3 When the heart is calm and Energy aligned

4 The Way can thereby repose.

 

I take "cultivate" as casting off "sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, desire and profit-seeking." When the heart returns to its natural flow, it should then effortlessly resonate with the Way/Dao. 

 

Good stuff and worth a repeat...

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8 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Ok, I read it as do the necessary work and the heart will then return to its natural state eg.

 

7 If you are able to cast off sorrow, happiness,

8 joy, anger, desire and profit-seeking,

9 Your Heart will return to its natural flow

 

11 The Way's sensation:

12 How can you be in tune with its sound?

13 Cultivate your Heart and you will resonate in tune.

14 The Way thereby can be attained

 

1 The Way has no fixed position;

2 In the cultivated Heart, it gracefully abides.

3 When the heart is calm and Energy aligned

4 The Way can thereby repose.

 

I take "cultivate" as casting off "sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, desire and profit-seeking." When the heart returns to its natural flow, it should then effortlessly resonate with the Way/Dao. 

 

As there are at least 5 manuscripts for the Neiye, it is good to at least mention the translator. 

 

The above translation is much more interpretative as the word 'cultivation' does not exist in the entirety of the Neiye.   It tends to read more like statements of fact.  For example, here is Eno on the same sections with less interpretation:

 



The form of the heart is Spontaneously full and replete, Spontaneously born and complete.

It loses this form through care and joy, pleasure and anger, desire and profit-seeking.

If are able to rid itself of care and joy, pleasure and anger, desire and profit-seeking, 4 the heart returns to completion.

The natural feelings of the heart cleave to rest and calm; Don’t trouble them, don’t derange them, and harmony will spontaneously be perfect.

 

The natural being of the Dao abhors thought and voice. Refine the heart and calm thoughts, and the Dao may be grasped.

 

The Dao has no fixed place; it dwells at peace in a good heart. When the heart is tranquil and the qi aligned, the Dao may be made to stay.

 

I'm not against an interpretative translation, it just means there is more than one way to interpret it.   And the difference may be in the process rather than the end-game.

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Posted (edited)

I am not sure why there is concern over the idea of cleansing the heart. It was stated that cleansing the heart is not in the Nei Ye.

 

I went back and checked on the Nei Ye that I have access to (Reid's Thread of Dao) and, indeed in his translation cleansing of the heart is not mentioned. But Reid's analysis includes two other Guanzi texts ... Bai Xin and Xin Shu ... and a detailed comparison to the DDJ with a strong reliance on Heshang Gong's commentary. The Xin Shu text makes strong reference to cleansing and sweeping away, per Reid, as preparatory practices for the heart-mind. All three texts ... Bai Xin, Xin Shu and Nei Ye ... have strong parallel and overlap. So, may not be unreasonable for cleansing to be considered part of the overall tradition that they represent individually. But again, Reid's analysis is heavily influenced by Heshang Gong which did not occur until some time later than the Guanzi texts. Perhaps later more evolved interpretation of the practice has crept into these early described practice. I don't think so ... but there it is.

 

The real question is what is meant by cleansing. Is it any thing more than just a metaphorical reference to calming and making still the heart-mind or, as it is said, emptying the heart-mind? Is there some other esoteric practice to be considered?

 

 

Edited by OldDog
Manually correcting the autocorrection
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7 minutes ago, dawei said:

... the process rather than the end-game.

 

Hi dawei,

 

I am inclined to think of the Tao as a journey without a destination. To me it is not possible for me to know everything about the Tao ~ but to openly/honestly/experientially... register my personal milestones (or lack of) on its road less traveled.

 

I was asked once which comes first ~ truth or trust. I opt for trust first even both are equally important to me. Why?

 

I am into research by training and I must verify/cross-reference/trust the sources of data/information/knowledge/wisdom before I delve into their truth(s).

 

I will be truly blessed if I can find a fellow traveler with whom I can share my experiences - trustingly and truthfully. Sometimes without words...

 

- Anand

 

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5 minutes ago, OldDog said:

The real question is what is meant by cleansing. Is it any thing more than just a metaphorical reference to calming and making still the heart-mind or, as it is said, emptying the heart-mind?

 

Hi OldDog,

 

A real question ~ otherwise cleansing is just a word.

 

Its importance pertains to each his/her own ~ as no two persons are the same?

 

- Anand

 

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53 minutes ago, OldDog said:

I am not sure why there is concern over the idea of cleansing the heart. It was stated that cleansing the heart is not in the Nei Ye.

 

I went back and checked on the Nei Ye that I have access to (Reid's Thread of Dao) and, indeed in his translation cleansing of the heart is not mentioned. But Reid's analysis includes two other Guanzi texts ... Bai Xin and Xin Shu ... and a detailed comparison to the DDJ with a strong reliance on Heshang Gong's commentary. The Xin Shu text makes strong reference to cleansing and sweeping away, per Reid, as preparatory practices for the heart-mind. All three texts ... Bai Xin, Xin Shu and Nei Ye ... have strong parallel and overlap. So, may not be unreasonable for cleansing to be considered part of the overall tradition that they represent individually. But again, Reid's analysis is heavily influenced by Heshang Gong which did not occur until some time later than the Guanzi texts. Perhaps later more evolved interpretation of the practice has crept into these early described practice. I don't think so ... but there it is.

 

The real question is what is meant by cleansing. Is it any thing more than just a metaphorical reference to calming and making still the heart-mind or, as it is said, emptying the heart-mind? Is there some other esoteric practice to be considered?

 

 

So there's been posted two translations of nei ye - stating either "tune" or "harmonize" the heart. I recommend studying the book Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality. We are talking about literal music theory to understand the secret of the 1:2:3:10,000 things as harmonics as complementary opposites. So the Single Perfect Yang is 2/3 but is also C to F as 2/3 and C to G as 3/2 - at the SAME time. So it is Non-dual or the One as a 3 in 1 harmonics. And to "apply" this harmonics to the heart via the body-mind is then the secret of the training. As for the heart role - this goes back to the San Bushmen culture that also relied on music harmonics with exercises, etc. And the "three gunas" is from this same music theory secret. Why do Westerners not understand this? Because the logic of the music theory was lied about by Archytas, Plato and Philolaus - as the "Greek Miracle." So when every one learns Western mathematical logic - it's before their brains are hard-wired - so then they get HARD-wired to be brainwashed by the irrational magnitude continuum logic based on symmetry.

 

So you can find a LIVING qigong master - http://springforestqigong.com is good or http://qigongmaster.com and then feel the energy of the heart get activated (try getting a phone healing). And then the books can be tools that are very helpful but the training itself is physiological - we have the SAME biology as from 100,000 years ago (with a few minor adaptations). And also the same is true about music - all human cultures rely on the 1:2:3:10,000 things harmonics.

 

I have more details on my blog links - , etc.

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11 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

We are talking about literal music theory to understand the secret of the 1:2:3:10,000 things as harmonics as complementary opposites.

 

th?id=OIP.WGwk5LQhniiGBTcWmTXSFgHaHh&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300

 

th?id=OIP._PcVsQ5fs5AY7j5fDl79JQHaHa&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300

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1 hour ago, OldDog said:

I am not sure why there is concern over the idea of cleansing the heart. It was stated that cleansing the heart is not in the Nei Ye.

 

I went back and checked on the Nei Ye that I have access to (Reid's Thread of Dao) and, indeed in his translation cleansing of the heart is not mentioned. But Reid's analysis includes two other Guanzi texts ... Bai Xin and Xin Shu ... and a detailed comparison to the DDJ with a strong reliance on Heshang Gong's commentary. The Xin Shu text makes strong reference to cleansing and sweeping away, per Reid, as preparatory practices for the heart-mind. All three texts ... Bai Xin, Xin Shu and Nei Ye ... have strong parallel and overlap. So, may not be unreasonable for cleansing to be considered part of the overall tradition that they represent individually. But again, Reid's analysis is heavily influenced by Heshang Gong which did not occur until some time later than the Guanzi texts. Perhaps later more evolved interpretation of the practice has crept into these early described practice. I don't think so ... but there it is.

 

The real question is what is meant by cleansing. Is it any thing more than just a metaphorical reference to calming and making still the heart-mind or, as it is said, emptying the heart-mind? Is there some other esoteric practice to be considered?

 

 

 

Yes there are strong parallels among the three Guanzi texts... The Xin Shu makes an application to the ruler (ie: Order the heart and you can order the country).   Here are translations of the two other texts mentioned... sroll down on left.

 

http://members.ziggo.nl/kwispel/masterguan/index.htm

 

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I don't think there is much good in considering these texts as Cultivation Manuals.

 

That's not what they are.

 

Cleansing is like "Washing".

 

So - in "Marrow and Brain Washing Classic" - what is meant in there by "Washing"?

 

That is the Cultivation meaning too - "Cleansing".

Did anyone study this? If not, Internal Cultivation - how could you do it?

 

But these books you looking at are, like DaoDeJing, books about municipal management and the kind of person and attitude doing this.

 

Not manuals about how to do Internal Cultivation. 

 

Not even "philosophy", but infused with that and just utilizing that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

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4 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

I don't think there is much good in considering these texts as Cultivation Manuals.

 

That's not what they are.

 

Cleansing is like "Washing".

 

So - in "Marrow and Brain Washing Classic" - what is meant in there by "Washing"?

 

That is the Cultivation meaning too - "Cleansing".

Did anyone study this? If not, Internal Cultivation - how could you do it?

 

But these books you looking at are, like DaoDeJing, books about municipal management and the kind of person and attitude doing this.

 

Not manuals about how to do Internal Cultivation. 

 

Not even "philosophy", but infused with that and just utilizing that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

 

So you're saying that the Classical Chinese/Daoist Tradition(s) is/are wrong?

 

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4 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

But these books you looking at are, like DaoDeJing, books about municipal management and the kind of person and attitude doing this.

 

Not manuals about how to do Internal Cultivation. 

 

Not even "philosophy", but infused with that and just utilizing that.

 

Hi vonkranhenhaus,

 

Very good insights - thank you.

 

They brought me back to the time when I was working with a multinational company (XYZ) and I was tasked to have it certified to ISO 14000.

 

ISO 14000 is a family of standards related to environmental management that exists to help organizations (a) minimize how their operations (processes, etc.) negatively affect the environment (i.e. cause adverse changes to air, water, or land); (b) comply with applicable laws, regulations, and other environmentally oriented requirements; and (c) continually improve in the above.

- Wikipedia

 

When XYZ wanted to be certified thus, ISO 14000 was embryonic ~ it had just arrived on the management scene. As such, it was tricky to interpret its concepts, content, context... So how can XYZ be prepared, audited and certified to ISO 14000?

 

Certified to ISO 9000 is easy ~ it is more focused on tangibility - products, services, processes, procedures...

 

But ISO 14000 is on the environment and its management. How, what... aspects of management? Which  countries' laws and regulations (XYZ was export oriented)? ....? ...?

 

XYZ wanted to be certified to ISO 14000 by an internationally recognized accreditation body (RST). On the onslaught we were very open/honest with RST and we asked very pointed questions to be professionally on the same page.

 

To cut to the chase, RST sent one of its experts to look at XYZ prior to the audit/certification... leading to a happy win-win ending.

 

I maybe deemed to have digressed from this thread ~ but I beg - is Chapter 42 very far beyond ISO 14000? If so, how...?

 

I am recently in contact with a trusted TDB bummy (DC) on certain Taoist aspects and Universal consciousness crops up. I like to share these two pointers from him ~

(1) Universal consciousness is an interesting concept but changes one's thinking once experienced.

(2) Universal consciousness isn't just an interesting concept but an experience of existence.

 

Who's concept? Who's existence? ... ?

 

I am now down sitting on the Wayside of the road less traveled ~ contemplating on how to hit back at DC, above the waist.

 

- Anand

 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, dawei said:

 

As there are at least 5 manuscripts for the Neiye, it is good to at least mention the translator. 

 

I was quoting from the translation I found here:

 

Quote

The above translation is much more interpretative as the word 'cultivation' does not exist in the entirety of the Neiye.   It tends to read more like statements of fact.  For example, here is Eno on the same sections with less interpretation:

 

 

 

 

I'm not against an interpretative translation, it just means there is more than one way to interpret it.   And the difference may be in the process rather than the end-game.

 

Do you have links to other translations apart from Eno's, I'd be interested in comparing them.

 

Edited by Bindi
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9 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

And the "three gunas" is from this same music theory secret.

 

Hi voidisyinyang,

 

Are you into Prakriti and Purusha?

 

Good choice of membership image-name ~ Void is yin (and) yang...

 

quote-zero-is-powerful-because-it-is-infinity-s-twin-they-are-equal-and-opposite-yin-and-yang-charles-seife-79-9-0911.jpg

 

- Anand.

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The problem might be that the Neiye is antithetical to the wu-wei position so stressed in the DDJ. From this article by Russel Kirkland VARIETIES OF TAOISM IN ANCIENT CHINA: A PRELIMINARY COMPARISON OF THEMES IN THE NEI YEH AND OTHER TAOIST CLASSICS, which is well worth reading in full:

 

Quote

One of the reasons that some of the teachings of the Tao te ching have become domesticated in Western culture is that the public believes those teachings to involve no regular, definable practices that involve one's physical existence. According to such beliefs, the Taoist life is essentially stative: it never involves specific practices that carry historical or cultural baggage, and certainly never involves any work. It should also be noted that the Nei Yeh never presents the spiritual life in terms of "practicing wu-wei." Here, the Taoist life is not a stative life of "just being," or of "being spontaneous," but rather a very active life of specific practices, practices that must be carefully learned and properly performed if one is ever to come into possession of such elusive forces as tao. In this framework, the Taoist life involves personal responsibility, dedication to a life of constant self-discipline, and conscientious daily practice. Moreover, this practice involves the purification and proper ordering of one's body as well as one's "heart/mind."

 

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12 hours ago, OldDog said:

I am not sure why there is concern over the idea of cleansing the heart. It was stated that cleansing the heart is not in the Nei Ye.

 

I went back and checked on the Nei Ye that I have access to (Reid's Thread of Dao) and, indeed in his translation cleansing of the heart is not mentioned. But Reid's analysis includes two other Guanzi texts ... Bai Xin and Xin Shu ... and a detailed comparison to the DDJ with a strong reliance on Heshang Gong's commentary. The Xin Shu text makes strong reference to cleansing and sweeping away, per Reid, as preparatory practices for the heart-mind. All three texts ... Bai Xin, Xin Shu and Nei Ye ... have strong parallel and overlap. So, may not be unreasonable for cleansing to be considered part of the overall tradition that they represent individually. But again, Reid's analysis is heavily influenced by Heshang Gong which did not occur until some time later than the Guanzi texts. Perhaps later more evolved interpretation of the practice has crept into these early described practice. I don't think so ... but there it is.

 

The real question is what is meant by cleansing. Is it any thing more than just a metaphorical reference to calming and making still the heart-mind or, as it is said, emptying the heart-mind? Is there some other esoteric practice to be considered?

 

 

 

I haven't been able to compare many translations, but the Roth translation has:

 

Diligently clean out its lodging place [敬除其舍]
And its vital essence will naturally arrive [精將自來].

 

To me making everything calm only on the surface level leaves the deep mess undisturbed but still running the show subconsciously. 

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1 hour ago, Bindi said:

The problem might be that the Neiye is antithetical to the wu-wei position so stressed in the DDJ. From this article by Russel Kirkland ....

 

That struck me as a remarkable statement. I don't see anything antithetical to the concept of wu wei in the Neiye, quite the opposite. Granted I have not read other translations of Neiye ... maybe, I should. The quote from Kirkland did not resonate with my understanding, as its devloped thus far.

 

Perhaps the issue is with how one understands wu wei. It would seem that if one takes wu wei as no action literally, as some would have it, then any effort towards cultivation, be it Neiye or later Neidan approaches, might seem antithetical.

 

So, I'm inclined to disagree with Kirkland ... But will not dismiss him out of hand. I should probably look into his work.

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21 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 

That struck me as a remarkable statement. I don't see anything antithetical to the concept of wu wei in the Neiye, quite the opposite. Granted I have not read other translations of Neiye ... maybe, I should. The quote from Kirkland did not resonate with my understanding, as its devloped thus far.

 

Perhaps the issue is with how one understands wu wei. It would seem that if one takes wu wei as no action literally, as some would have it, then any effort towards cultivation, be it Neiye or later Neidan approaches, might seem antithetical.

 

So, I'm inclined to disagree with Kirkland ... But will not dismiss him out of hand. I should probably look into his work.

 

To me there does seem to be an aversion to 'you wei' from many posters here, Daoist and non-Daoist alike, and a premature fascination with wu wei. Would you refer to 'cultivation' and 'cleaning' as you wei or wu wei? 

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7 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

So you're saying that the Classical Chinese/Daoist Tradition(s) is/are wrong?

 

How did you get that from what I wrote?

 

If you assume DaoDeJing is a manual for doing Qigong and Neigong, this is incorrect.

 

Older versions - same thing.

 

OTHER Daoist books are about Qigong and Cultivation, not those.

 

DaoDeJing is details to a leader from a sage about how to run a municipality.

 

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

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4 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

quote-zero-is-powerful-because-it-is-infinity-s-twin-they-are-equal-and-opposite-yin-and-yang-charles-seife-79-9-0911.jpg

 

One thing though:

 

Infinity/Zero is not a polarity, not polar.

 

Infinite/Finite is that polarity.

 

And One/Zero would be the other.

 

The Void is "not finite" - so not polar to "Infinite", which means "not finite".

 

So maybe that guy is confused a bit.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

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1 hour ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

One thing though:

 

Infinity/Zero is not a polarity, not polar.

 

Infinite/Finite is that polarity.

 

And One/Zero would be the other.

 

The Void is "not finite" - so not polar to "Infinite", which means "not finite".

 

So maybe that guy is confused a bit.

 

Hi vonkrankenhaus,

 

(a) One thing though:...So maybe that guy is confused a bit.

      Soft tones. Good... nothing is cast in stones.

 

(b) Infinity/Zero is not a polarity, not polar.

      But as in Purusha and Prakriti... for instance?

 

(c) Infinite/Finite is that polarity.

      In (b) we are dealing with nouns... here we focused on adjectives?

 

(d) And One/Zero would be the other.

      Digitally - yes... not a polarity.

 

(e) The Void is "not finite" - so not polar to "Infinite", which means "not finite".

       Because ~ the Void cannot be known or knowable? 

 

(f) Associations between 1, 0 and 

     They have philosophical, mathematical, physical, metaphysical... relationships ~

 

th?id=OIP.vJLSQq1uhs42ClEylq5gVQHaEK&pid=Api&P=0&w=326&h=184              th?id=OIP._mMU4_N05ZiVaiphLsg2FAHaCy&pid              th?id=OIP.Qzw7RecMnvVGhovAYpdBuQHaFj&pid=Api&P=0&w=206&h=155 

 

 

the-math-of-love-is-amazingly-beautiful-which-makes-one-plus-one-equal-to-infinity-the-aftermath-of_600x315_63530.jpg ...

 

(g) What are ONE, ZERO and INFINITY in Taoism?

 

- Anand

 

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9 hours ago, Bindi said:

Would you refer to 'cultivation' and 'cleaning' as you wei or wu wei? 

 

The two are intricately tied together in my view.

 

I think what the Neiye is suggesting is that by calming and emptying (cleansing, sweeping clean?) the heart-mind one can set conditions for the Dao to be experienced. The presence of Dao is innate in all things. But is only apparent when the agitation in the heart-mind, caused by desires and general busy-ness of the mind contending, is stilled and emptied. I find the image of still water becoming clear to be especially compelling. This takes some practice but from the Neiye point of view is not outside the ability of most people to accomplish, at least to some degree.

 

This sort of activity is not the same thing as some of the esoteric energy and alchemy practices that evolved in later times. Not to deny the validity of those practices, since i have little experience with them, but they have always seemed to me to be a little too contrived.

 

Out of the Neiye kind of experience of the Dao, true wu wei is born. From the experience of the Dao, one is able to see more clearly how the world works, how Dao is present and expressed in all existence. From this realization one can act intuitively and spontaneously in a manner that is in accord with the times and conditions. Metaphorically, this is action without action ... effort-less-ness ... accomplishment without doing. This is what I think is the real wu wei.

 

So, in this sense, the practices suggested by the Neiye are foundational to developing wu wei.

 

That's it in a nutshell.

 

 

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14 hours ago, Limahong said:

I maybe deemed to have digressed from this thread ~ but I beg ...

 

You present a very valid modern world analogy. I came from and industry where ITIL was seen as the way to successful IT management. So, I am able to quickly grasp what you are trying to say wrt ISO 14000. The elegance of your analogy was clear to me.

 

However, I would point out that with ITIL it is not a template for compliance but more like a play book, where you select practice standards that fit your business model to enhance your organization's performance. Enough about that.

 

14 hours ago, Limahong said:

... certain Taoist aspects and Universal consciousness ...

 

In this discussion is universal consciousness not like the Dao? It's like talking about Daoism without the doctrinal language. Again a very insightful notion.

 

Thanks for the post!

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