Universal Basic Income is not Socialism

[ralis]

9 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

Well, I'm hoping someone who actually knows what they're talking about on this issue will jump in here.  I've read just a few articles on it and only think the idea has potential. I posted this topic mostly to learn more about it.

I've attempted to show how it's possible that UBI won't come from workers, because money doesn't simply come from work, and because money does exist outside of worker's pockets. I believe there are many potential ways it could work, which wouldn't mess with taxpayers at all, nor implement socialism or communism.

I actually think UBI would benefit a mostly free market.

 

 

The Northern European models are apropos to this discussion. Although, the posts I have read so far indicate a basic lack of understanding regarding complex social systems. 

 

So far no one has criticized the upward movement of wealth to the upper .5-1% socioeconomic bracket via tax cuts and very low capital gains taxes.

 

“We do not live in the sort of universe in which simple lineal control is possible. Life is not like that.”—Gregory Bateson, “Conscious Purpose versus Nature” (1968, 47)

Edited July 19, 2018 by ralis

[joeblast]

1 minute ago, ralis said:

 

 

The Northern European models are apropos to this discussion. Although, the posts I have read so far indicate a basic lack of understanding regarding complex social systems. 

 

“We do not live in the sort of universe in which simple lineal control is possible. Life is not like that.”—Gregory Bateson, “Conscious Purpose versus Nature” (1968, 47)

Yeah, go ahead and tell us about their finances

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

 

The Northern European models are apropos to this discussion. Although, the posts I have read so far indicate a basic lack of understanding regarding complex social systems. 

 

“We do not live in the sort of universe in which simple lineal control is possible. Life is not like that.”—Gregory Bateson, “Conscious Purpose versus Nature” (1968, 47)

But the Northern European models wouldn't work in the USA.

 

A different model is required.

 

[ralis]

I am expecting the usual drivel from certain individuals who have no reasonable basis for any discussion. Those comments will go unanswered. 

[Lost in Translation]

3 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

You don't think we've seen the wealth gap increase, and witnessed a disappearing middle class, due to this already taking place?

 

The middle class has not disappeared because Jeff Bezos is a billionaire and created Amazon. The middle class has not disappeared because Bill Gates is a billionaire and created Microsoft.

 

The middle class is disappearing because regulations are strangling businesses and because the free market is too constrained . Look what has happened in the last two years. The president lowered taxes and reduced regulations and now unemployment is at its lowest point in years. (1)

 

How is that not good for the middle class?

 

http://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/national-employment-monthly-update.aspx

[ralis]

Just now, Marblehead said:

But the Northern European models wouldn't work in the USA.

 

A different model is required.

 

 

I said they are apropos to the discussion which is not to say that we should adopt their model (s).

[Aetherous]

1 minute ago, Lost in Translation said:

The middle class has not disappeared because Jeff Bezos is a billionaire and created Amazon. The middle class has not disappeared because Bill Gates is a billionaire and created Microsoft.

 

I definitely didn't say anything like that.

 

1 minute ago, Lost in Translation said:

The middle class is disappearing because regulations are strangling businesses and because the free market is too constrained .

 

I'm not sure that those are the only reasons.

 

1 minute ago, Lost in Translation said:

Look what has happened in the last two years. The president lowered taxes and reduced regulations and now unemployment is at its lowest point in years. (1)

 

How is that not good for the middle class?

 

Lowering taxes, especially on small businesses, is great for it!

[rene]

1 minute ago, ralis said:

 

I said they are apropos to the discussion which is not to say that we should adopt their model (s).

 

What would be your solution, ralis?

[ralis]

1 minute ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

The middle class has not disappeared because Jeff Bezos is a billionaire and created Amazon. The middle class has not disappeared because Bill Gates is a billionaire and created Microsoft.

 

The middle class is disappearing because regulations are strangling businesses and because the free market is too constrained . Look what has happened in the last two years. The president lowered taxes and reduced regulations and now unemployment is at its lowest point in years. (1)

 

How is that not good for the middle class?

 

http://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/national-employment-monthly-update.aspx

 

Regulations such as banking, i.e, insufficient leverage for trading, environmental regulations which keep drinking water safe, clean air, toxins out of the environment e.g. Roundup and so forth. I guess all those can be thrown out?

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, ralis said:

 

I said they are apropos to the discussion which is not to say that we should adopt their model (s).

Okay.  I was searching for clarification.

 

But I would agree that their model could be used as a starting point for creating a model for the USA.

 

 

[joeblast]

6 minutes ago, ralis said:

I am expecting the usual drivel from certain individuals who have no reasonable basis for any discussion. Those comments will go unanswered. 

Its ok, you always shy away from all but the most echoey of chambers, you dont have any rebuttal except to ignore inconvenient data

[ralis]

1 minute ago, Marblehead said:

Okay.  I was searching for clarification.

 

But I would agree that their model could be used as a starting point for creating a model for the USA.

 

 

 

How about starting with this proposition:  Why not all of us learn better communication skills? What a novel concept!

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, joeblast said:

ignore inconvenient data

I ignore inconvenient truths.  So many lies deep within.

 

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, ralis said:

 

How about starting with this proposition:  Why not all of us learn better communication skills? What a novel concept!

Nah.  That would make life too easy.  We need to be misunderstood.

 

[ralis]

Rene asked me a question in which I will comment later.

[Marblehead]

I'm not sure, this might be a novel idea.

 

How about everyone has the right to work at a job they are capable of performing and get paid for the work done.

 

However, no work, no pay.

 

[Lost in Translation]

49 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

Regulations such as banking, i.e, insufficient leverage for trading, environmental regulations which keep drinking water safe, clean air, toxins out of the environment e.g. Roundup and so forth. I guess all those can be thrown out?

 

That's a straw man argument. I did not say we need no regulations. I said we need less regulations.

[Aetherous]

14 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

How about everyone has the right to work at a job they are capable of performing and get paid for the work done.

 

However, no work, no pay.

That sounds like it's getting close to Socialism. 

[joeblast]

40 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I'm not sure, this might be a novel idea.

 

How about everyone has the right to work at a job they are capable of performing and get paid for the work done.

 

However, no work, no pay.

 

this gets back to the whole "what are rights" question

 

if anything is required of anyone else outside of no physical harm, restraint, yadda yadda....it cant be a right.  there is no right to the fruits of others' labor.  (central banks seem to think they are well entitled to their thefts....you want a universal basic income?  confiscate the entirety of the central banks' "wealth"....there would be more "money" than civilization would know what to do with.)

[zerostao]

At some point, Genex & the Millennials will implement the plan and tools that they think will work best. At any point in time, this is an option. It takes resolve to change. And while it is true that many who were liberal thinking in their youth turned more conservative later in their life; I have a feeling that the Millennials are going to effect significant change, when they are in a position to do so. UBI is a form of rationing. Systems of rationing have been used in the past even in the good old USA. If ways are found to produce an abundance of food and goods to meet the demands of the masses, UBI may be avoided. However, if resources become scarce, I see two approaches, rationing/UBI or conflict. Conflict is usually the course humanity chooses.

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, Aetherous said:

That sounds like it's getting close to Socialism. 

Maybe not though.  I am requiring people to work if they are physically and/or mentally capable.

 

No work, no pay except for those with qualifying disabilities.

 

[zerostao]

1 minute ago, Marblehead said:

Maybe not though.  I am requiring people to work if they are physically and/or mentally capable.

 

No work, no pay except for those with qualifying disabilities.

 

Requiring people to work sounds like communism to me. Some forced labor BS.

Edited July 19, 2018 by zerostao

[Marblehead]

58 minutes ago, joeblast said:

this gets back to the whole "what are rights" question

Yes, the right to work.  No work, no money.

 

And we ain't gonna get the money from the money brokers.  It would require revolution and then chaos before they would turn loose of their money.

 

[Marblehead]

3 minutes ago, zerostao said:

Requiring people to work sounds like communism to me. Some forced labor BS.

I'm not talking about forced labor.  I am talking about the end of welfare.

 

[ralis]

1 hour ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

That's a straw man argument. I did not say we need no regulations. I said we need less regulations.

 

Not in the least since I posited several scenarios in the form of a question which is not an accusation. Care to define the regulations?

Edited July 19, 2018 by ralis