Eric Woon

DDC Chapter 6: 谷神不死是谓玄牝。

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Posted (edited)

Chapter 4: 谷神不死是谓玄牝。

These are the opening eight words in this chapter. Interestingly, it seems no one suspected the first word 谷, actually is an abbreviation for a Chinese proverb, 虚怀若谷 (虚:谦虚;谷:山谷。胸怀象山谷一样深广。形容十分谦虚,能容纳别人的意见), which means humble, open-minded and receptive. 

If this is what it should be, then the meaning for this sentence looks like this.

 

In humility, the open-minded and receptive God incessantly nourishes the livelihood of all forms of life and He does not drop this role. Let’s call Him ‘Xuanpin'[1].

 

[1] Let’s keep it as Xuanpin (玄牝; pinyin: xuán pìn), instead of translating it as Mysterious Vagina where: for Mysterious and for Vagina.

 

Edited by Eric Woon
Edited. In humility,
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Hello, Eric Woon and welcome.

 

Your membership is approved and we're happy you found your way to us. We look forward to accompanying you on some of the way that you still have to go.

 

Please take the time to read the post pinned at the top of this Welcome page and take a look at the forum Terms and Rules.   This covers all you need to know when getting started.

 

For the first week you will be restricted to ten posts per day but after that you can post as much as you like. Also, until you’ve posted fifteen times in the forums, you’ll be a “Junior Bum” with somewhat restricted access and will be allowed only two private messages per day.

 

Good luck in your pursuits and best wishes to you,

 

Marblehead and the TDB team

 

 

Hi Eric,

 

You sure started off with an interesting suggestion.  I must, of course, challenge it.  Where did you find those Chinese characters in Chapter 4?  Chapter 4 is not in the Guodian collection and they do not appear in the Ma-wang-tui texts as far as I can tell.  (I don't read Chinese.)  

 

Line 1 of Henricks' translation reads:

 

The Way is empty;

 

I don't see how this can even be compared with what you are suggesting.

 

You are welcome to jump right in ongoing discussions, revive an older thread, start a new thread of your own, or start a discussion in the "Newcomer Corner" sub-forms to expand on your introduction or ask general questions to help you get started.

 

May you enjoy your time here.

 

Marblehead

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Hello Eric :)

 

I am looking forward to more of your posts? 

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Welcome Eric!

You do know how to start things out with a bang!

Please do carry on!  :D

 

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 Xuanpin , should then therefore at least be understood as a female , otherwise god-guy would be named 'Weird Vagina'. ;) 

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So sorry. Typo error on day one. 

It is chapter 6, not chapter 4.

In the olden days, people only saw how new babies were born. In those days, the Chinese people used the word (pin) to describe vagina. Today, the younger Chinese do not know what this word means because they use 阴道 (yin dao)instead.

Therefore, the early Chinese inferred that whatever was created in Heaven and Earth (universe is a recent word), must have come out from some kind of a 牝. And this 牝 produced many, many different things. Therefore, they added another word 玄 in front, and bingo, a new phrase 玄牝 was created to describe this some kind of a conduit where all the things existing in Heaven and Earth were produced.     

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Thank you Eric.  I feel so much better now.

 

And I even accept your rendering of that.

 

 

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Chapter 6:谷神不死是谓玄牝。玄牝之门是谓天地根。

The resources that nourish the abundance of living things originate from the universe and are channeled through Xuanpin.

玄牝之门:Xuanpin is the channel.

是谓 is said to be. (Can be dropped)

天地根:resources that originate from the universe.

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Welcome Eric, make sure to check or post in the Daoist Discussion section, lots of material and certainly your input is valuable.

 

Thanks

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Posted (edited)

Chapter 6: 谷神不死是谓玄牝。玄牝之门是谓天地根。绵绵若存,用之不勤。

 

abbreviation for 虚怀若谷: humble, open-minded and receptive.

: God.

不死: unrelenting. Inferred as incessantly nourishes the livelihood of all forms of life and He does not drop this role.

是谓: is described as. In simple term, let’s call Him,

玄牝: Compound words, giving it a new meaning. Keep this orginal name as XuanPin.

In humility, the open-minded and receptive God incessantly nourishes the livelihood of all forms of life and He does not drop this role. Let’s call Him ‘Xuanpin'[1].

 

玄牝之门:Xuanpin is the channel.

是谓 is said to be. (Can be dropped)

天地根:resources that originate from the universe.

The resources that nourish the abundance of living things originate from the universe and are channeled through Xuanpin.

 

绵绵若存: perpetually in abundance.

用之不勤: during consumption, it is inexhaustible.

Since the resources originate from the universe, they are perpetually in abundance and they are inexhaustible.

 

Edited by Eric Woon
Edited. In humility,
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Hi Eric,  

 

Good work.  Thanks.

 

However, ..., Yeah, we must expect me to make comment ...

 

Your use of the pronouns "He/Him" is in conflict with the concept of Vagina.  Shouldn't it be "She/Her"?

 

Also,

 

Your use of the word "God" is from Western thought.  Why not just leave it "Dao"?

 

But then,

 

I do like that word "Humble".  I use "Humility" to define the third of The Three Treasures.

 

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On 3/14/2018 at 8:32 AM, Eric Woon said:

Chapter 6: 谷神不死是谓玄牝。玄牝之门是谓天地根。绵绵若存,用之不勤。

 

abbreviation for 虚怀若谷: humble, open-minded and receptive.

: God.

不死: unrelenting. Inferred as incessantly nourishes the livelihood of all forms of life and He does not drop this role.

是谓: is described as. In simple term, let’s call Him,

玄牝: Compound words, giving it a new meaning. Keep this orginal name as XuanPin.

The humble, open-minded and receptive God incessantly nourishes the livelihood of all forms of life and He does not drop this role. Let’s call Him ‘Xuanpin'[1].

 

玄牝之门:Xuanpin is the channel.

是谓 is said to be. (Can be dropped)

天地根:resources that originate from the universe.

The resources that nourish the abundance of living things originate from the universe and are channeled through Xuanpin.

 

绵绵若存: perpetually in abundance.

用之不勤: during consumption, it is inexhaustible.

Since the resources originate from the universe, they are perpetually in abundance and they are inexhaustible.

 

 

I like unconventional thinking and this chapter needs that point of view... at least two here have said 'valley' is not the point in various discussions...  but the problem I have with Chinese proverb, 虚怀若谷 ...  in 300 BC, this was a chinese proverb at the time? 

 

This chapter 6 is mentioned in total in the Liezi, who says this is originally from a Huang Di text.   Now we are at 600 BC.   And Chapter 5 has been shown that the Straw Dogs is in the Yellow Emperor's time but re-fashioned later as a ritual... 

 

And the original character was 浴, bath or bathe...  In the Mawangdui text... 

 

Most of your other comments are ok by me. 

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Dawei, you are right. Chinese proverbs was not formal 2500 years ago. It was a much later development, say by the Han dynasty, to my best guess. However, we must not forget, the formal proverbs all have their origin, somewhere. Some of these are from very old source indeed. For example, 博文约礼, has its origin from The Analect, 《论语·子罕》“博我以文,约我以礼”. What about this most important ofthem all, but long lost proverb, 为所欲为?无为 (Wuwei),actually is the abbreviation for 无为所欲为。Which this new finding, you can imagine all the readers (1.4 billion mainland Chinese, plus however he might be) of DDJ who are from the LaoZi-ZhuangZi school, have to drop their past understand of the phrase, wuwei. Are they ready for this shocking revelation? I bet not. I tested this on 500 current professors in more than a few dozen universities in China. Most of them kept quiet. They are at a total lost, sort of insulting their intelligence, perhaps. Are you too?     

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As of today (March 17, 2018), this is the world-first revelation of the full list of Chinese proverbs (whether they exist before Laozi or not, it is not important), each of them gives the closest, and most of them truly bring the precise meaning to the phrase and its chapter sub-theme.  Let me revel the full list here. Note: Without much ado, or making reference to the Chinese dictionary (汉典) at zdic.net (which I used through the last decade while I was doing my translation), you can figure out at a glance that the majority of these proverbs give a precise description of the accompanying phrase on its right.

1.     恃:恃才傲物。(第2章:为而不恃)

2.     居:居功自傲2章:功成而弗居)

3.           居:居功自傲2章:夫唯弗居

4.           为:为所欲为3章:为无为,则无不治)

5.           和:和衷共济。(第4章:和其光

6.           虚无缥缈。(第5章:虚而不屈

7.           谷:虚怀若谷6章:谷神不死是谓玄牝)

8.           处:设身处地8章:处众人之所恶

9.           时:待而动8章:动善时

10.        为:为所欲为。(第10章:爱国治民,能无为乎

11.        能:力所能及。(第10章:爱国治民,能无为乎

12.        患:患得患失。(第13章:吾有何患

13.        能:力所及。(第14章:能知古始

14.        始:周而复始(第14章:能知古始

15.        是:实事求是。(第14章:是谓道纪

16.        深:深入浅出。(第15章:深不可识

17.        释:涣然冰(第15章:涣兮若冰之将释

18.        澹:恬澹寡欲(第15章:澹兮其若海

19.        安:安之若素(第15章:孰能安以动之徐生

20.        虚:虚怀若谷。(第16章:致虚极守静笃

21.        妄:恣意妄为(第16章:不知常,妄作凶

22.        遂:功成名遂。(第17章:功成事遂

23.        出:出类拔萃。(18章:慧智出有大伪

24.        伪:巧伪趋利(第18章:慧智出有大伪

25.        昏:昏天黑地(第18章:国家昏乱

26.     智:利令智昏(第19章:绝圣弃智

27.     巧:投机取巧。(第19章:绝巧弃利

28.        :见利忘义、利市三倍(第19章:绝巧弃利

29.        令:令行禁止(第19章:故令有所属

30.        朴:朴实无华(第19章:见素抱朴少私寡欲

31.        ē阿其所好(第20章:唯之与阿

32.        泊:淡泊明志。(第20章:我独泊兮

33.        是:实事求是。(第21章:孔德之容,惟道是从

34.        精:精益求精(第21章:窈兮冥兮其中有精。其精甚真

35.        自是:自以为是(第22章:不自是故彰

36.        争:争名夺利;长竞短。(第22章:夫唯不争

37.        同:一视同仁(第23章:德者同於德

38.        同:一视同仁(第23章:同於德者

39.        自是:自以为是(第24章:自是者不彰

40.        躁:性急烦躁(第26章:重为轻根,静为躁君

41.        躁:性急烦躁(第26章:轻则失根,躁则失君

42.        师:良师益友。(第27章:故善人者不善人之师

43.        爱慕虚荣(第28章:知其荣

44.        谷:虚怀若谷。(第28章:为天下谷。

45.        为:为所欲为。(第29章:天下神器,不可为也

46.        为:为所欲为。(第29章:为者败之

47.        执:执迷不悟。(第29章:执者失之

48.        强:争强好胜。(第30章:不敢以取强

49.        矜:矜功恃宠。(第30章:果而勿矜

50.        伐:伐功矜能。(第30章:果而勿伐

51.        骄:骄傲自满。(第30章:果而勿骄

52.        强:恃强凌弱。(第30章:果而勿强

53.        物:待人接物。(第30章:物壮则老

54.        自:自不待言。(第32章:万物将自宾

55.        终:自始至终(第34章:以其终不自为大

56.        太,亦作泰:泰然处之。(第35章:往而不害安平太

57.        微:微言大义。(第36章:是谓微明

58.        :自然而然。(第37章:天下将自定

59.        无德:无德不贵,无能不官。(第38章:下德不失德是以无德)

60.        以:而无以为。(第38章:上义为之而有以为)

61.        义:深明大义。(第38章:上义为之而有以为)

62.        礼:卑礼厚币。(第38章:上礼为之而莫之以应)

63.        义:急公好义。(第38章:失仁而後义)

64.        礼:卑礼厚币。(第38章:失义而後礼)

65.        首:罪魁祸首。(第38章:夫礼者忠信之薄而乱之首)

66.        忠贞不渝。(第39章:侯王得一以为天下贞

67.        忠贞不渝。(第39章:侯王无以贞将恐蹶

68.        不振。(第39章:侯王无以贞将恐蹶

69.        寡:寡廉鲜耻。(第39章:是以侯王自称孤、寡、不谷

70.        谷:虚怀若谷。(第41章:上德若谷

71.        广:广开言路。(第41章:广德若不足

72.        隐:隐隐约约。(第41章:道隐无名

73.        唯:唯我独尊。(第42章:人之所恶,唯孤、寡、不谷

74.        寡:寡廉鲜耻。(第42章:人之所恶,唯孤、寡、不谷

75.        谷:虚怀若谷。(第42章:人之所恶,唯孤、寡、不谷

76.        益:益国利民(第43章:吾是以知无为之有益

77.        为:为所欲为。(第43章:无为之益天下

78.        穷:穷奢极侈(第43章:其用不穷

79.        巧:巧捷万端。(第45章:大巧若拙

80.        拙:拙嘴笨舌(第45章:大巧若拙

81.   暴躁如雷(第45章:静胜躁

82.        为:为所欲为。(第48章:以至於无为

83.        为:为所欲为。(第48章:无为而无不为

84.        德:同心同德(第49章:不善者吾亦善之德善

85.        恃:恃才傲物。(第51章:为而不恃

86.        明:明察秋毫。(第52章:见其小曰明

87.        明:深明大义。(第52章:复归其明

88.        厌:贪得无厌。(第53章:厌饮食

89.        善:好谋善断(第54章:善抱者不脱

90.        家:宜家宜室(第54章:修之於家其德乃馀

91.        乡:四乡八镇(第54章:修之於乡其德乃长

92.        丰:丰亨豫(第54章:修之於邦其德乃丰

93.        普:普天同庆。(第54章:其德乃普

94.        身:修身齐家(第54章:故以身观身

95.        身:立身处世(第54章:故以身观身

96.        家:宜家之乐(第54章:以家观家

97.        家:齐家治国(第54章:以家观家

98.        乡:乡规民约(第54章:以乡观乡

99.        乡:随乡入乡(第54章:以乡观乡

100.     邦:民为邦本(第54章:以邦观邦

101.     邦:立国安邦(第54章:以邦观邦

102.     天下:怀柔天下(第54章:以天下观天下

103.     天下:燮和天下(第54章:以天下观天下

104.     以此:以此类推(第54章:以此

105.     至:自始至终。(第55章:精之至也

106.     :人情之常或人之常情。(第55章:知和曰常

107.     常:明如指掌。(第55章:知和曰常

108.     心:一心一意。(第55章:心使气曰强

109.     知:知高识低。(第56章:知者不言

110.     和:和衷共济。(第56章:和其光

111.     同:同心协力(第56章:是谓玄同

112.     昏:昏庸无道(第57章:民多利器国家滋昏

113.     滋:日益月滋。(第57章:法令滋彰

114.     自:自力更生。(第57章:而民自富

115.     为:为所欲为。(第57章:我无为而民自化

116.     自:自然而然。(第57章:而民自朴

117.     朴:朴实无华。(第57章:而民自朴

118.     :三翻四(第58章:善复为妖

119.     迷:迷惑视听(第58章:人之迷其日固久

120.     固:固步自封。(第58章:人之迷其日固久

121.     方:方正不阿(第58章:是以圣人方而不割

122.     廉:廉洁奉公。(第58章:廉而不刿

123.     刚直不阿.(第58章:直而不肆

124.     肆:肆无忌惮。(第58章:直而不肆

125.     光:光明磊落(第58章:光而不耀

126.     耀:耀武扬威(第58章:光而不耀

127.     唯:亦作惟,惟精惟一。(59章:夫唯啬是谓早服)

128.     非:无可非议。(第60章:非其鬼不神)

129.     伤:劳民财。(第60章:其神不伤人

130.     非:无可非议。(第60章:其神不伤人

131.     归:众望所归。(第60章:故德交归

132.     静:四海波静(第61章:以静为下

133.     取:唾手可取(第61章:则取小国

134.     取:拱手而取。(第61章:则取大国

135.     下:下气怡(第61章:故或下以取

136.     取:取信于民(第61章:故或下以取

137.     下:下气怡(第61章:或下而取

138.     而:引而申之(第61章:或下而取

139.     兼畜:兼容并蓄(第61章:大国不过欲兼畜人

140.     事:事齐事(第61章:小国不过欲入事人

141.     大:深明大义(第61章:大者宜为下

142.     宜:便宜行事。(第61章:大者宜为下

143.     所:各尽所能。(第62章:不善人之所保

144.     保:明哲保身。(第62章:不善人之所保

145.     为:为所欲为。(第63章:为无为,事无事,味无味

146.     终:由始至终。(第63章:是以圣人终不为大

147.     终:善始善终。(第63章:是以圣人犹难之,故终无难矣

148.     终:自始至终。(第64章:慎终如始则无败事

149.     欲:为所欲为。(第64章:是以圣人欲不欲)注:“不欲”是“不为所欲为”。

150.     为:为恶不(第64章:而不敢为

151.     将:将计就计(第65章:将以愚之

152.     深:意味深长。(第65章:玄德深矣

153.     远:任重道远。(第65章:玄德深矣,远矣

154.     前:勇往直前。(第66章:处前而民不害

155.     乐。乐此不疲。(第66章:乐推不厌

156.     争:争名夺利。(第66章:以其不争,故天下莫能与之争注: 指第一个“争”

157.     争:争长论短(第66章:以其不争,故天下莫能与之争注: 指第二个“争”。

158.     持:之以恒(第67章:我有三宝持而保之

159.     能:力所及。(第67章:不敢为天下先故能成器长

160.     舍:舍己为人(第67章:今舍慈且勇

161.     俭:克勤克俭。(第67章:舍俭且广

162.     先:身先士卒。(第67章:舍後且先

163.     胜:胜任愉快。(第67章:夫慈以战则胜

164.     善:多谋善断。(第68章:善胜敌者不与

165.     极:登峰造极。(第68章:是谓配天之极

166.     行:行兵布阵。(第69章:是谓行无行注: 第一个“行”字,是行军。第二个“行”字,才是行兵布阵。

167.     祸:祸国殃民。(第69章:祸莫大於轻敌

168.     唯:唯唯否否。(第70章:夫唯无知

169.     难:难能可贵。(第70章:则我者贵

170.     怀:怀瑾握瑜。(第70章:披褐怀玉

171.     玉:玉洁冰清。(第70章:披褐怀玉

172.     至:接踵而至。(第72章:则大威至

173.     自知:自知之明。(第72章:是以圣人自知不自见

174.     自:自欺欺人。(第72章:是以圣人自知不自见

175.     见:见事生风。(第72章:是以圣人自知不自见

176.     自:好自矜夸。(第72章:自爱不自贵

177.     贵:贤身贵体。(第72章:自爱不自贵

178.     勇:猪突豨勇。(第73章:勇於敢则杀

179.     勇:见义勇为(第73章:勇於不敢则活

180.     于:于安思危(第73章:勇於不敢则活

181.     不敢:不敢后人。(第73章:勇於不敢则活

182.     争:争强好胜(第73章:天之道不争而善胜

183.     善:善气迎人(第73章:天之道不争而善胜

184.     胜:天人胜处(第73章:天之道不争而善胜

185.     应:一呼百应。(第73章:不言而善应

186.     殚:殚精竭虑。(第73章:殚然而善谋

187.     谋:谋图不(第73章:殚然而善谋

188.     恃:恃才傲物。(第77章:是以圣人为而不恃

189.     刚:刚戾自用。(第78章:柔之胜刚

190.     亲:任人唯亲。(第79章:天道无亲常与善人

191.     死:生离死别(第80章:使民重死而不远徙

192.     博:博关经典(第81章:知者不博

193.     博:博文约礼。(第81章:博者不知

194.     积:处心积虑。(第81章:圣人不积

195.     有:有教无类。(第81章:既以为人己愈有

196.     与人:与人为善。(第81章:既以与人己愈多

197.     争:争名夺利。(第81章:圣人之道为而不争

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Dawei, and merely for everyone's interest, I posted my original Chinese translation for chapter 54. This chapter alone has 18 Chinese proverbs (the highest number of proverbs). I am sorry, if you do not read Chinese, let it for the time being. You have to give me some time to translate it into English. You need not wait too long, though.  Note: Please ignore the labels MPxx. You can imagine now, why all earlier translations could not get anywhere close to what Lao Zi tried to explain.  

学说:修养的五个意向

[MP35a]擅长建造建筑物的人,不会摆脱责任[MP35b]好谋善断[1]的人所决定下来的志向,他不会轻易地放弃[MP35c]子孙们按照入学时给老师先行拜师的礼仪,他们就不会半途而辍学了。

有五种不同层次的学习态度。

其一,              [MP3a]谁为了自身的修养而去修学习,他所修得的道德品行[2]才是真诚的。

其二,              [MP36b]谁为了宜家宜室[3]而去修学,他所修得的道德品行就能恩泽及于於子孙

其三,              [MP36c]谁为了衣锦还乡[4]而去修学,他所修得的道德品行才足于使他成为领袖[5]

其四,              [MP36d]谁为了国家而去学修习,他所修得的道德品行才足于使国家丰亨豫[6]

其五,              [MP36e]谁为了天下所有的人民百姓而去修学习,他所修得的道德品行才能使全世界的人普天同庆[7]

[MP37]再看一看怎样去评估这五个层次的修养。

1.      [MP37a]修身齐家[8],去观看立身处世[9]的成果;

2.      [MP37b]宜家之乐[10],去观看齐家治国[11]的成果;

3.      [MP37c] 乡规民约[12],去观看随乡入乡[13]的成果;

4.      [MP37d] 民为邦本[14],去观看立国安邦[15]的成果;

5.      [MP37e] 怀柔天下[16],去观看燮和天下[17]的成果

[MP37f]我为什么会知道天下[18]是这样的状态呢?

[MP37g] 以此类推[19],就是以上十个评介点。

 

[1] 善:擅长;断:决断。形容人能不断思考,并善于判断

[2] 请参照第38章,注释1

[3] 形容家庭和顺,夫妻和睦

[4] 衣:衣服。锦:有多彩图案的丝织品。还乡:回家、探亲。古时指做官以后,穿了锦绣的衣服,回到故乡向亲友夸耀。也说衣锦荣归。

[5] 国家、政党、群众团体等的最高领导人。

[6] 形容富足兴盛的太平安乐景象

[7] 天下的人们共同庆贺。

[8] 指修养自身,理好家政。

[9] 立身:做人;处世:在社会上活动,与人交往。指人在社会上待人接物的种种活动

[10] 形容家庭和顺,夫妻和睦。

[11] 整治家庭和治理国家

[12] 指由当地村民共同制定并要求共同遵守的规约。

[13] 到一个地方就按照这一个地方的风俗习惯生活。也比喻到什么地方都能适应

[14] 邦:国家。百姓是国家的根本。

[15] 建立国家,安定天下

[16] 使天下归服。怀柔:旧指统治者用政治手腕笼络人心,使之归服

[17] 燮和:协调,和顺。使国家协调和平。

[18] 人世间,社会上;国家与社会动态。

[19] 根据这一事物的道理,去推出与此类似的其他事物的道理

 

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Posted (edited)
On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 8:45 PM, Marblehead said:

Hi Eric,  

 

Good work.  Thanks.

 

However, ..., Yeah, we must expect me to make comment ...

 

Your use of the pronouns "He/Him" is in conflict with the concept of Vagina.  Shouldn't it be "She/Her"?

 

Also,

 

Your use of the word "God" is from Western thought.  Why not just leave it "Dao"?

 

But then,

 

I do like that word "Humble".  I use "Humility" to define the third of The Three Treasures.

 

If we say to say, the ancient Chinese people, especially the people of the Shang Dynasty, called the Creator of Heaven and Earth, God; as 上帝 (Shang Di or God); the Zhou rulers of the Zhou Dynasty changed it to 昊天上帝 (Hao Tian Shangdi Di), and during the Spring and Autumn Period, let's say, Laozi called it 道 (Dao); and now, we describe the Creator of the Heaven and Earth as “God, the Creator of the universe” for the past few hundred years, over a long history of 5000 years, using different terms to describe God is reasonable and practical in every sense. There is nothing wrong with this.

 

Come 649 AD, Tang Tripitaka used the phrase Boddhisattva GuanShiYin to describe the Creator of Heaven and Earth ,who created the 舍利子 (pronounce as shelizi, which actually, means ,human soul). If you want to do more research on some of the Chinese scriptures, each scripture chose a different name or phrase to describe the Creator of Heaven and Earth. All in all, there are more than 3 dozen Chinese word or phrase that describe the Creator of Heaven and Earth. Btw, The creator of the universe is a very recent term compared to the Creator of Heaven and Earth.

 

Btw, in the Bible, there are 66 chapters。 Some of these chapters used different word to describe Jehovah. I did not make a count. There should be more than two dozen words.

 

The biggest problem with people from the Western culture are two major flawed concepts. 1) They think, there is only one name for God. (Even the Bible did not use only one name, Jehovah). Perhaps, the Quran uses Allah, all out and out. Can somebody enlighten me, please?  Two, bigotry. Your God is not my God. My God is the true God, and your is not the true God. Perhaps, somebody can emlighten me, when did the West first use the word God? The earliest written record (of course, verbally passed down story that was transcribed into words, much later), of 上帝 (Shangdi), circa, 4171 years ago. It wrote about (尧) King Yao's intention to abdicate (禅让) in favor of (舜) King Shun. In Chinese record, it reads something like this, 尧欲禅舜之年是公元前2153年,离今天(2018年)已有4171年。            

Edited by Eric Woon
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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Eric Woon said:

If we say to say, the ancient Chinese people, especially the people of the Shang Dynasty, called the Creator of Heaven and Earth, God; as 上帝 (Shang Di or God); the Zhou rulers of the Zhou Dynasty changed it to 昊天上帝 (Hao Tian Shangdi Di), and during the Spring and Autumn Period, let's say, Laozi called it 道 (Dao); and now, we describe the Creator of the Heaven and Earth as “God, the Creator of the universe” for the past few hundred years, over a long history of 5000 years, using different terms to describe God is reasonable and practical in every sense. There is nothing wrong with this.

 

Come 649 AD, Tang Tripitaka used the phrase Boddhisattva GuanShiYin to describe the Creator of hHaven and Earth ,who created the shelizi (which actually, means ,human soul). If you want to do more research on some of the Chinese scriptures, each scripture chose a different name or phrase to describe the Creator of Heaven and Earth. All in all, there are more than 3 dozen Chinese word or phrase that describe the Creator of Heaven and Earth. Btw, The creator of the universe is a very recent term compared to the Creator of Heaven and Earth.

 

Btw, in the Bible, there are 66 books。 Some of these books used different word to describe Jehovah. I did not make a count. There should be more than two dozen words.

 

The biggest problem with people from the Western culture are two major flawed concepts. 1) They think, there is only one name for God. (Even the Bible did not use only one name, Jehovah). Perhaps, the Quran uses Allah, all out and out. Can somebody enlighten me, please?  Two, bigotry. Your God is not my God. My God is the true God, and your is not the true God. Perhaps, somebody can enlighten me, when did the West first use the word God? The earliest written record (of course, verbally passed down story that was transcribed into words, much later), of 上帝 (Shangdi), circa, 4171 years ago. It wrote about (尧) King Yao's intention to abdicate (禅让) in favor of (舜) King Shun. In Chinese record, it reads something like this, 尧欲禅舜之年是公元前2153年,离今天(2018年)已有4171年。 

 

 To the best of my knowledge, in the spiritual world of the angels (different from the spiritual world of the sentient beings, and thirdly, the human world), there is no masculine or feminine division. In many of the Chinese scriptures, the Creator of Heaven and Earth appears as a feminine figure, such as 观世音 (GuanYin), 西方圣母,圣母娘娘 and several others.       

To the best of my knowledge, in the spiritual world of the angels (different from the spiritual world of the sentient beings, and thirdly, the human world), there is no masculine or feminine division. In many of the Chinese scriptures, the Creator of Heaven and Earth appears as a feminine figure, such as 观世音 (GuanYin), 西方圣母,圣母娘娘 and several others.  

Edited by Eric Woon

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On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 11:16 AM, Mig said:

Welcome Eric, make sure to check or post in the Daoist Discussion section, lots of material and certainly your input is valuable.

 

Thanks

Thanks Mig. Still learning more about in this website.  

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On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 4:23 AM, dawei said:

 

I like unconventional thinking and this chapter needs that point of view... at least two here have said 'valley' is not the point in various discussions...  but the problem I have with Chinese proverb, 虚怀若谷 ...  in 300 BC, this was a chinese proverb at the time? 

 

This chapter 6 is mentioned in total in the Liezi, who says this is originally from a Huang Di text.   Now we are at 600 BC.   And Chapter 5 has been shown that the Straw Dogs is in the Yellow Emperor's time but re-fashioned later as a ritual... 

 

And the original character was 浴, bath or bathe...  In the Mawangdui text... 

 

Most of your other comments are ok by me. 

Chinese words were standardized by Qin Shi Huang, (Qin Dynasty 221 - 206 B.C.). If you find or read some texts much older than this, I am sure you can find different version of Dao De Jing. I am 100% certain of that. Whether the Mawuangdui is different or not, I must get a copy and read it first. 

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5 hours ago, Eric Woon said:

Chinese words were standardized by Qin Shi Huang, (Qin Dynasty 221 - 206 B.C.). If you find or read some texts much older than this, I am sure you can find different version of Dao De Jing. I am 100% certain of that. Whether the Mawuangdui is different or not, I must get a copy and read it first. 

 

From the Guodian (300 bc) which only about 31 of 81 chapters to the MWD versions (168 bc) of all 81 chapters there are obvious a big different in chapter counts but the character differences are minor, and some understandable like the taboo of using an emperor's name had to replaced with another character.   The version most know today is by Wang Bi but he seems to largely really follow Heshang Gong.  The character differences from MWD to HSG-WB are also minor but do occur.  SO all in all, most of the lines and meaning remain the same. 

 

This link is more a look at the Guodian and MWD, so providing in case anyone is interested.


A comparison of the Guodian and Mawangdui Laozi texts

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On 3/16/2018 at 12:19 PM, Eric Woon said:

What about this most important ofthem all, but long lost proverb, 为所欲为?无为 (Wuwei),actually is the abbreviation for 无为所欲为。Which this new finding, you can imagine all the readers (1.4 billion mainland Chinese, plus however he might be) of DDJ who are from the LaoZi-ZhuangZi school, have to drop their past understand of the phrase, wuwei. Are they ready for this shocking revelation? I bet not. I tested this on 500 current professors in more than a few dozen universities in China. Most of them kept quiet. They are at a total lost, sort of insulting their intelligence, perhaps. Are you too?     

 

Am I insulted?   that's funny.

 

But I'm not seeing any proof that 无为 (Wuwei),actually is the abbreviation for 无为所欲为.  We'd need to see something that shows the latter was before the former, else we're just creating a later proverb to re-interpret a meaning to an older word that that is not always going to fit. 

 

For example, wuwei shows up in the Guodian bamboo (300 bc) 7 times as 亡为.    If one looks at ch. 37 which the received text has:  道常無為

 

I'm not seeing how 无为所欲为 applies to Dao when it says "Dao is eternally/constantly Wuwei".

 

But my point is, we'd need to see the earliest use of a proverb to know if it even captures the abbreviated use in every case.

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On 3/16/2018 at 12:59 PM, Eric Woon said:

If we say to say, the ancient Chinese people, especially the people of the Shang Dynasty, called the Creator of Heaven and Earth, God; as 上帝 (Shang Di or God); the Zhou rulers of the Zhou Dynasty changed it to 昊天上帝 (Hao Tian Shangdi Di), and during the Spring and Autumn Period, let's say, Laozi called it 道 (Dao); and now, we describe the Creator of the Heaven and Earth as “God, the Creator of the universe” for the past few hundred years, over a long history of 5000 years, using different terms to describe God is reasonable and practical in every sense. There is nothing wrong with this.

 

 

Btw, in the Bible, there are 66 chapters。 Some of these chapters used different word to describe Jehovah. I did not make a count. There should be more than two dozen words.

 

The biggest problem with people from the Western culture are two major flawed concepts. 1) They think, there is only one name for God. (Even the Bible did not use only one name, Jehovah). Perhaps, the Quran uses Allah, all out and out. Can somebody enlighten me, please?  Two, bigotry. Your God is not my God. My God is the true God, and your is not the true God. Perhaps, somebody can emlighten me, when did the West first use the word God? The earliest written record (of course, verbally passed down story that was transcribed into words, much later), of 上帝 (Shangdi), circa, 4171 years ago. It wrote about (尧) King Yao's intention to abdicate (禅让) in favor of (舜) King Shun. In Chinese record, it reads something like this, 尧欲禅舜之年是公元前2153年,离今天(2018年)已有4171年。            

 

I follow your point about using Dao as God and have made some similar arguments too but more to show that maybe the closest thing to Dao in the west is God.    The only issue I have with it is, God in the western idea is a spirit/deity and in the eastern idea (cosmology) that is post-Dao.

 

 

On 3/16/2018 at 1:05 PM, Eric Woon said:

To the best of my knowledge, in the spiritual world of the angels (different from the spiritual world of the sentient beings, and thirdly, the human world), there is no masculine or feminine division. In many of the Chinese scriptures, the Creator of Heaven and Earth appears as a feminine figure, such as 观世音 (GuanYin), 西方圣母,圣母娘娘 and several others.  

 

Maybe replace the divisions with something other than gender as gender doesn't always work on an energy/light level.  If energy is a spectrum of one extreme is transmission and another extreme is reception, then you will find such things abide somewhere along the spectrum and then can be felt as such too.   It also helps, to me, to see then how when two or more come together, they create a kind of energy loop; like an electric circuit just completed and energy flow can be felt. 

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Well, from my perspective, the use of the word "God" leads to the reification of Dao, something I think should never be done.

 

And I still hold that the creative force is feminine,  "... gave birth to ...".  Feminine gives birth, masculine fertilizes the egg.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Well, from my perspective, the use of the word "God" leads to the reification of Dao, something I think should never be done.

 

And I still hold that the creative force is feminine,  "... gave birth to ...".  Feminine gives birth, masculine fertilizes the egg.

 

 

I doubt they knew women made eggs ,( I'm open to being notified otherwise though). From that view, femaleness is not egg producing but the ' formless-undefined' setting in which the manifest ( male generated formed-specific) was nourished.  So the universe is formless blackness setting in which the yang-formed specific is nurtured. The creative force is male, in a setting that is female.

IMO

This obviates god , as do all the rest of the explanatory passages , because a sentient god need not be explained, in terms of rationale. 

And a non-sentient god , is the same as just saying Universe , without the non functional anthropomorphism. 

One can translate the texts in multiple ways , Like ,, 'The black recycling tortoise never gets tired ', so one needs to check which translation actually makes sense from a perspective removed from the text. You can't just plow the text back on itself and expect a single translation to stand out as the writing most perfectly rendered and go..'  AHA! '

Gods don't exist , they wouldn't have met one either, they wouldn't be more informed than us in regards to that. 

Spinning a human generated logical explanation of the universes workings , into a mythical god based pile of hocus-pocus Chinese folklore suitable for children , does a genuine disservice to the greatness of the minds who got past the superstitions to make sense of what really was going on as best they could determine . There's nothing to gain from more folklore , the world has plenty of that , in all sorts of flavors. But a fresh look at the universe mans meaning and place in it , is fertile ground. 

 Sorry , that's just how I feel about it and will drop out having said as much. 

 

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Well, I will accept your perspective without stating whether or not I agree with it.

 

 

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