Starjumper Posted July 17, 2017 (edited) This thread was inspired by seeing that more and more people are claiming to teach nei kung systems and they only offer a few techniques. If someone takes a few exercises out of a nei kung system then it really should be called chi kung and not nei kung. What I have read about real systems of nei kung is that they contain thousands of techniques, and my own experience has verified this. When you take one or a small group of techniques out of a vast system then technically it should be called chi kung, not nei kung, because the name nei kung should be reserved for the few wholistic systems that address all aspects of cultivating health and power. if someone focus on one type of technique that may lead to some power it can cause a serious imbalance in a person in the long run. As an example of this, the kind of yoga done by the immortal mahavatar, Babaji, is said to contain thousands of techniques also, and I was told by another chi kung master that the methods are actually quite similar to the methods of a real nei kung system like mine, which also has the goal of leading one on the path of immortal. Here is a video that explains it well: Edited May 14, 2018 by Starjumper 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johndoe2012 Posted July 17, 2017 2 hours ago, Starjumper said: I think you got it right with this comment. What I have read about real systems of nei kung is that they contain thousands of techniques, and my own experience has verified this. When you take one or a small group of techniques out of a vast system then technically it should be called chi kung, not nei kung, because the name nei kung should be reserved for the few wholistic systems that address all aspects of cultivating health and power. if someone focus on one type of technique that may lead to some power it can cause a serious imbalance in a person in the long run. As an example of this, the kind of yoga done by the immortal mahavatar, Babaji, is said to contain thousands of techniques also, and I was told by another chi kung master that the methods are actually quite similar to the methods of a real nei kung system, which also has the goal of leading one on the path of immortal. This is why I said that Clyman claims to know the path to immortal, because he claims to be teaching nei kung. I have experience with two internal systems and they do not contain thousands of techniques. Whether they pass your definition of nei kung I don't know but just because thousands of techniques exist in a system does not imply anything in itself. The path to immortality can also be done by a single technique. 8 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mudfoot Posted July 17, 2017 I know this only mirrors my shortcommings, but how does one remember thousands of techniques, not to mention master them all? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted July 17, 2017 5 hours ago, johndoe2012 said: I have experience with two internal systems and they do not contain thousands of techniques. Whether they pass your definition of nei kung I don't know but just because thousands of techniques exist in a system does not imply anything in itself. The path to immortality can also be done by a single technique. I agree, but before going into detail I have a question, would you say that these systems contain hundreds of techniques and dozens of types of sitting meditations? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johndoe2012 Posted July 18, 2017 6 hours ago, Starjumper said: I agree, but before going into detail I have a question, would you say that these systems contain hundreds of techniques and dozens of types of sitting meditations? One does. The other has only one sitting meditation. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) Thanks for answering, the first one could well be a good nei kung system, now to answer. Quote I have experience with two internal systems and they do not contain thousands of techniques. Whether they pass your definition of nei kung I don't know but just because thousands of techniques exist in a system does not imply anything in itself. The path to immortality can also be done by a single technique. A single technique, like Zazen, could lead one to immortal, a celestial immortal, but the chances are not as good as in a wholistic system, and even then it would take much longer. Keep in mind there are many types of immortals, from hungry ghosts to Earthly Immortals, to Celestial Immortals, of which there are also a few types. The wholistic system that address all aspects of health and energy cultivation can be more succesful because they give you more time to get to Celestial Immortal by becoming an Earthly Immortal first. An Earthly Immortal is one who lives a long time, to a very advanced age, while still being youthful, in good health, and full of energy and vitality. There is this goal because it gives a person a longer time to advance in their spiritual pursuits and by that then achieve Celestial Immortal. Even if someone doesn't become an immortal, and in fact that's not a good thing to have as a goal, a wholistic system will allow them to live long in good health and good humor. Another thing is that the wholistic nei kung systems which contain thousands of techniques are simply required to learn for a person to become a chi kung master. It is said that a nei kung expert will know all the chi kung techniques, but a chi kung expert will not be aware of all the nei kung techniques, and most likely be aware of only a small percentage of the techniques. Therefore for someone who only knows a few techniques to call themselves a master is not right is it? It's like someone saying they are a master of kindergarten level understanding and ability, it's not right, and reflects back on this Clyman joker. When someone knows 'all' the methods then they are at a point where they can deeply understand what the core principles are and how they can use them to achieve different outcomes, they become intimately familiar with how all these different techniques work to influence and cultivate energy and how they are put together to form a progression from beginning level to advanced levels. THAT is how you create a chi kung master, and it's the only way. Then there is the stated goal in Taoism of "Arriving at the Formless" when it comes to the philosophy (uncarved block), or in the internal martial arts, or in chi kung. It is said that one must first study the forms in order to eventually arrive at the formless, and the way to do this is to learn all the ways there are to move. Later on all these ways and their variations kind of blend together in an endless spectrum of possibilities and lose their isolated, stand alone, character. It is for example, why I know that horse stance is a more powerful energetic variation of the zazen posture. Once someone arrives at the formless then when they practice they don't need to follow a form, they do what feels best or most interesting at the moment and exploire connections between different techniques - arriving at the formless. Dang, maybe I should write a book after all. Edited July 18, 2017 by Starjumper 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mudfoot Posted July 19, 2017 22 hours ago, Starjumper said: When someone knows 'all' the methods then they are at a point where they can deeply understand what the core principles are and how they can use them to achieve different outcomes, they become intimately familiar with how all these different techniques work to influence and cultivate energy and how they are put together to form a progression from beginning level to advanced levels. THAT is how you create a chi kung master, and it's the only way. Can you become a master of a specific system without excelling in the mastery process which you describes above? By all means, some systems are smaller and thus in risc of placing limitations on the practitioner, but that is another thing. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted July 19, 2017 On 7/17/2017 at 1:43 PM, Mudfoot said: I know this only mirrors my shortcommings, but how does one remember thousands of techniques, not to mention master them all? This mention of thousands may be misleading. In the literature is says that the powerful wholistic systems contain ten thousand techniques, and this is referring to nei kung. Actually ten thousand in Taoism simply means 'too many to count' or 'everything'. If you break it down you will see that a lot of techniques are simply variations. You learn a technique and then later you do it slightly differently, the technique keeps changing little by little till after a long while you end up doing something fairly different. The thing is that each little variation has something to teach you about energy, health, and exercising in general. The same applies to the different postures, slight movements, and intent that we use during sitting meditation. Then after you do a whole spectrum of variations of one technique sometimes that one may be dropped and you start on a new type of movement and go through the same process again. This way of learning makes it easy to remember the different variations and methods. It keeps you curious and exploratory which is the proper attitude, and you never get bored. There were a couple of times when my teacher did something different for a few seconds and only did it once. If a student was not a good observer they may have missed it. I myself forgot about one such technique for a few years and then it came back to me, so I tried it, and found that it is actually a powerful technique and opened up a whole world of powerful variations. It was due to the constant training in exploring variations that my chi kung brother and I were able to discover a new big world of powerful methods, and any student that didn't notice it or forgot it would simply lose it forever. This is another method that master teachers use to see if you are a worthy student. My chi kung brother used to come to my house each week and we would take turns leading and following. One week he would lead and i would follow, the next week I would lead and he would follow. Doing this was very helpful for learning because he would do some variation of something which I liked and then the next week I would take that same thing and explore a different variation of it. In this way we helped each other learn a lot. Now the reason that I brought up this explanation of what true nei kung is is because it circles back to the original intent of this thread. The word nei kung has become popular lately and people are taking advantage of it to make money, bastardizing the concept for money, teaching some simplistic BS and calling it nei kung, which is a lie. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kar3n Posted July 19, 2017 Starjumper or anyone willing to answer, would you say that variations are or can be specific to an individual or to the system itself? Could a slight variation be more beneficial to one practitioner and not another without changing the intended outcome of the movement of a specific system? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted July 19, 2017 On 7/17/2017 at 5:58 PM, Starjumper said: I agree, but before going into detail I have a question, would you say that these systems contain hundreds of techniques and dozens of types of sitting meditations? The Real Temple style does. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted July 19, 2017 Good, that reminds me of a point I was going to make above and forgot. If you take all the variations of one of the exercises and count them as one then that would reduce the number of techniques down from ten thousand to a hundred or some few hundreds. Same with the sitting meditations, if you take all the variations of one type and count them as one then you would end up with only some dozens of methods instead of hundreds. If the teacher is not in the habit of showing the variations then it is up to the student to have an exploratory nature and check some of those things out, after they master the primary one of course. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted July 19, 2017 there are very systematic meditations we do, working on both pre-heaven and post-heaven levels. The way it was taught to me, there is deliberately no usage of "technical terminology", which I suspect is to simplify the material for the Western audiences when Master Liao came to the US (in the late 60s or early 70s iinm). I also want to disclaim that I don't represent the Dao Center (Master Liao's school) in any capacity. I believe I an being a responsible member of this forum, and sharing what I do out of compassion (based on what I've learnt from reliable sources - my teachers). IMHO, we should retire this thread as it is causing too much unrest and churning up negativity that can be avoided. If you like, I have shared the high level structure of what we learn in Temple style in another thread -- 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted July 19, 2017 47 minutes ago, Kar3n said: Starjumper or anyone willing to answer, would you say that variations are or can be specific to an individual or to the system itself? Could a slight variation be more beneficial to one practitioner and not another without changing the intended outcome of the movement of a specific system? Now that's a good question, and I'm guessing but I think the answer would be yes (for pure chi kung), I've led kind of a sheltered life in regards to this because I mainly learned the one system. I think one of the other members with a more worldly view could do a better job of answering that. I've learned some short forms of other chi kungs and could see that my system seems to cover the exercises in those, but with variations of course, however there's enough similarity to see they are actually one method done a little differently. One thing that comes to mind is that different variations have different levels of 'power' and so we begin with the lower power variations and progress towards higher power variations. If a beginner was to start with a high power variation they might not 'get it' because they haven't established the foundation necessary to understand or benefit from it, and possibly they could hurt themselves. For a person who is accustomed to working on more powerful variations to do the lower power variation could well be counterproductive and result in becoming wimpier rather than stronger. Concerning systems, a lot of the normal types of chi kung that just contain a few exercise and are for beginners normally contain the weaker variations, which is what inspired me to coin the term 'wimpy chi kung', but those are probably proper for beginners. The problem is when someone takes a bit of wimpy chi kung and says "This is IT". In the internal martial arts the answer would be a definite yes, like in different types of tai chi (which is a chi kung) the different ones have different variations that are for that system. In martial arts there are many different body types and some methods work well for one body type and others for a different body type. For example, Mr. Yueng was kind of short and slender, and he didn't have the power to knock someone out like Bruce did, but he sure as hell could end a fight in one second and incapacitate an attacker. Getting back to the big chi kung systems, there are so many techniques that different people naturally end up focussing more on different methods and so they develop in different ways. For example a couple of my chi kung brothers, who also used to practice with each other, took one of the techniques and developed that quite a lot, with the result that they developed some strong Jedi type abilities, whereas I didn't see that opportunity and completely missed the boat with regards to the Jedi stuff. Instead I focussed on other things, like cultivating a lot of head energy, with the result that an observer who had the 'sight' told me I have a powerful beam of violet light going out the top of my head, which is said to be one requirement for being a Taoist priest, but I sure ain't no priest. Later I dropped the head stuff and started focussing more on lower and middle tan tien. So it's all a big experiment and a journey of discovery. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blue eyed snake Posted July 19, 2017 interesting, from a beginner, ( so even whimpier ) I remember a workshop where both senior students and beginners can attend. We were to do a specific exercise, teacher told the seniors to do a variation. saw the questionmark on my face and told me. ' the way I taught you and the others expels sick energy from the body. before you can go further to this variation you need to be cleaned up more. Well, the was the gist of it. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) One thing to remember is that neigong is not so much about technique as it is about internal feeling and awareness. Just mechanically doing techniques will NOT develop internal power. There has to be sensitivity to what's going on inside. But there is also an element of sensitivity to what's going on outside (energetically). Edited July 20, 2017 by dwai 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, dwai said: One thing to remember is that neigong is not so much about technique as it is about internal feeling and awareness. Just mechanically doing techniques will NOT develop internal power. There has to be sensitivity to what's going on inside. But there is also an element of sensitivity to what's going on outside (energetically). That is a good way of putting it. I think one thing that facilitates this is when you learn so many ways of moving then one or a few ways don't seem so important like they would in a chi kung system with just a few techniques. This is the way I normally think of it and explain it: You need to be looking internally while you do the movements and postures and feel the energy, feel how the movement is affecting the energy in each case. For example when moving a hand near my leg I can feel the energy of my leg with my hand, or the energy of my hand with my leg. If I walk past someone with a lot of energy I can feel their buzz as I go by. When doing some movements or still meditations I feel how it affects the energy inside my torso or head. When slowly putting hands together with stretched out arms and closed eyes, I feel for the energy from one hand's fingers with the other hand's fingers so that I can get them aligned properly and put them together properly, with eyes closed. In the tai chi classics it mentions three stages of energy cultivation that a person should go through. 1. Listening energy, 2. controlling energy, and 3. knowing energy. So listening to (feeling) the energy is the all important first step. Now brings up a problem with some types of chi kung. Instead of having you feel for the energy they have you visualize energy moving, which is baaaad. Let's say you make a certain rising and sinking movement with the body and hands (the hands are the all important energy tools one uses to cultivate) and they will blah blah their way through it, like this: "imagine a ball of blue light going up your elohmottob, circling your left teste, going up to your heart where is turns red, and then back down to the ground via the elohmottob. This results in a person using their imagination and just imagining they are doing something instead of actually doing it with the tools at their disposal, their hands. So the hands gain no power and the person gains no learning from listening. It's more like blah blah. Another important thing is that this one movement might do many other energy tasks that a student would ignore by focussing on the one example they were told. I have learned a lot from what sensitive students have told me that they felt while doing some movement, because I didn't tell them what to expect. One of the important points is that by focussing on the feeling of energy you train your brain and your nerves to become even more sensitive, and this is one of the main ways of increasing power. Edited July 20, 2017 by Starjumper 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted July 21, 2017 On 7/17/2017 at 1:43 PM, Mudfoot said: I know this only mirrors my shortcommings, but how does one remember thousands of techniques, not to mention master them all? It's not so hard to remember thousands of techniques, just like it's not so hard to remember thousands of words. If you use them and practice them you get some 'body memory' too. What really makes it easier is that a lot of these techniques are just variations of each other of some hundreds or hundred categories of techniques. Once you know one category of movement than all the variations naturally follow, like embellishments, and you don't really need to remember each one. After you learn all the 'ways' then you don't really practice them all but rather practice whichever variation happens to hold your interest at the moment. Sometimes I'll run through a sequence of variations of one movement for myself, but I more often do it when I'm teaching someone. I'll do the basic movement and then each following one is a little bit different from the one before, this is probably not the best way to teach a serious student, but in this little tourist town there are none of those so pfft, who cares. When someone comes here to spend a couple of months learning chi kung them I'm more careful about starting at the beginning and running through the variations in a manner similar to how my teacher taught it to me. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted July 21, 2017 On 7/19/2017 at 5:52 AM, Mudfoot said: Can you become a master of a specific system without excelling in the mastery process which you describes above? I guess it depends on what you consider a master to be. For example, there are zen masters, and they only have one technique. Someone could learn a simple set of chi kung exercises and practice them enough to say they have mastered them, and if you stretch meanings enough you could maybe let them get away with calling themselves a master of that one system, but they wouldn't be what I consider to be a real chi kung master. In fact with all the things I've learned and know and experienced, which is more than some people who call themselves masters, I don't really think of myself as being a master of chi kung, because I've seen a real master, the real rare one in a million type. Something which sets the bar impossibly high, well, maybe it's possible some decades ahead if I stop writing and start practicing more. In the final analysis, I've seen it written that there is no official mastery in Taoism, that mastery is in the eye of the beholder. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mudfoot Posted July 21, 2017 3 hours ago, Starjumper said: I guess it depends on what you consider a master to be. Yepp. Actually, over the years I have collected "definitions" of what it means to be a master. Have two in my PPD section, haven't had the time/motivation to add the rest. Lets just say they differ, and they include the dude writing it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted July 21, 2017 On 7/18/2017 at 7:25 AM, Earl Grey said: Quote Dang, maybe I should write a book after all. Goes well with a recent topic you and I discussed a couple days ago, eh? Self-publishing is at an all-time high now...And people have made fortunes on topics you wouldn't believe, such as...dinosaur erotica (blech). Share some insight; you certainly have a lot to talk about and one of my teachers wrote so much in his website that he transferred about 80% of that to his first book (Qigong Demystified, by John Dolic), so you could easily transfer a lot of your posts on TDB to something with sections on criticizing others and the authority and lineage you have. Fair warning though: publishing anything will lead to both praise and scrutiny, but always a sense of personal accomplishment. Who knows? Someone who may not realize it's you who wrote the book, and will post on TDB and criticize it while you give them a nudge and a smile and rib them in a jolly manner. Another teacher here is compiling his thread of eight years that has directly inspired a lot of his writing into a big book. First I want to thank you for your generosity in offering to help out with an unsolicited donation based on that video about the retreat here. It was a much needed help and gave us the additional amount we needed for my wife to get transportation to Poland, where she now qualifies for social security, since she needs to go there to apply in person. Unfortunately there was only enough to get a one way trip So this here is a request for help from anyone who would like to help out for her return trip after she's in Poland for the required time, a month or two. Her SS will only be like $300 a month but that will be a big help here, where living expenses are low. Also, Earl, thank you for those mantras that you sent to me, I've been using them and they are helping. Concerning writing a book, I have a ton of material i've saved over the last two decades for just that purpose. I have more here and intend to write more for that reason too. I was intending to write a book to become popular, to get students, Now I only want to write it to generate some income and I don't really want the popularity that will surely come from it. Also, after seeing the expression of human nature here on this forum, I'm a bit concerned about the kinds of students that popularity could attract. But I'll do it for the book money, which if it works out could allow students costs to stay low. The main problem with preparing a book now is the drudgery of organizing it, and even deciding how to organize it. For example, have it in discrete sections, or have it be kind of chronological, describing things as I experience them. In any case, thanks to your encouragement I'll be writing more here on this forum in order to generate some interesting tales. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mudfoot Posted July 22, 2017 One of the early things to decide is if it should be a manual for practice or more anecdotal. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jox Posted July 22, 2017 On 7/18/2017 at 7:25 AM, johndoe2012 said: One does. The other has only one sitting meditation. May you put the names of your training "styles"? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jox Posted July 22, 2017 On 7/18/2017 at 1:59 PM, Starjumper said: Dang, maybe I should write a book after all. You should ... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jox Posted July 22, 2017 (edited) On 7/20/2017 at 7:56 PM, Starjumper said: Now brings up a problem with some types of chi kung. Instead of having you feel for the energy they have you visualize energy moving, which is baaaad ... ... This results in a person using their imagination and just imagining they are doing something instead of actually doing it with the tools at their disposal, their hands. Seems that for many practitioners / schools the visualization methods are wrong. I practice various visualizations and from my experience it is very powerful stuff. Also, I have been reading the book - VISUALIZATION POWER, which goes in to details of visualizations ... Edited July 22, 2017 by Jox 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites