林愛偉

Questioning the Path (article re-named)

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Lin thank you for posting this letter. Do you know where I can find a translation of shurangama sutra? :)

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Lin,

 

That was a MASTER PIECE of work! I guess this is probably the most important and perfect example of cultivation and especially for people jumping on the Kunlun band wagon as well other arts that are coming out showing abilities and getting huge amounts of attention.

 

Now i better go and kill a cow for dinner so i can ground my Kunlun? :P Take it easy all you Kunlun guys i was joking eat the whole cow i dont care....hahaha ;)

 

WYG

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Lin thank you for posting this letter. Do you know where I can find a translation of shurangama sutra? :)

 

 

You can check my website for two links; one of to the entire Sutra with commentary by Ven. Master Xuan Hua in adobe acrobat format. The other is a commentary of the entire Mantra by Ven. Master Xuan Hua.

 

http://www.freewebs.com/jingxinyuanmgc/uph...ngthedharma.htm

 

 

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

Lin,

 

That was a MASTER PIECE of work! I guess this is probably the most important and perfect example of cultivation and especially for people jumping on the Kunlun band wagon as well other arts that are coming out showing abilities and getting huge amounts of attention.

 

Now i better go and kill a cow for dinner so i can ground my Kunlun? :P Take it easy all you Kunlun guys i was joking eat the whole cow i dont care....hahaha ;)

 

WYG

 

 

I'm not pointing any fingers but simply stating a concern. I do hope this is all wasteful and not needed. And if it is, then take the article and throw it in the garbage.

 

There are so many cultivation methods out there that it is difficult to tell the wholesome from the unwholesome. Though there are characteristics of what is wholesome and not, sometimes those are difficult to tell due tot he views and teachings of living beings.

 

Further advice, don't believe anything I say, write, or even teach. If it makes no sense to your own common sense, and logic, reasoning, it is useless.

 

If none of what I write makes sense to you, then please disregard it altogether. If it offends your views, arguing about it will only cause more needless arguing.

 

I am simply a cultivator of the Way, nothing more.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

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Lin Zi,

 

The article was good -- very good! I said it before, but I will say it again: You write words straight as arrows.

 

*deep bow*

 

:)

 

May you keep to the Way, as I know you will. I send my blessings.

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There is nothing wrong with acheiving the abilities its the way they use it to pull students in that dont understand its power and power it can creates that can harm others and i dont mean that just on a spiritual level.

 

thanks

WYG

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Lin Zi,

 

The article was good -- very good! I said it before, but I will say it again: You write words straight as arrows.

 

*deep bow*

 

:)

 

May you keep to the Way, as I know you will. I send my blessings.

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Wherever there is life, death is unavoidable. One feeds off the other. Why distinguish between one type of death and another?

Edited by mbanu

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Wherever there is life, death is unavoidable. One feeds off the other. Why distinguish between one type of death and another?

 

 

The fact is there is no death. Yet since living beings still are attached to views of self, death exists, and they perceive suffering, experience suffering. So to distinguish that which is not in the view of unwholesome, and to not empower the views of suffering, wise distinction of that which is life and death according to living beings is adhered to.

Either way, it does matter because of cause and effect. And though many will say cause and effect are of the mind, and are not real, they themselves still fall into the mind of cause and effect, and if not, they then can come and go as they please. For those who do not hold onto views, they are free in the sense of views of freedom. But for those who have not let go of views, they are not free in that sense of views, and thus experience what they consider suffering.

 

There can be an argument stating life and death don't exist, and so why bother caring in certain manners as to how others die. To say life and death don't exist is to say that there is absolutely nothing, and that once the body dies, there is annihilation. Annihilation is a state, and thus also false. Caring for others is a view that assists those who still hold on to views of a self.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

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Hi Lin,

 

Your post was the first I decided to read in this forum, as I have just joined. Fantastic post.....I think something like this should be part of the registration process as necessary reading.....its a scary world out there with many sharletans, tricksters, and power suckers.

 

I have witnessed many people been mislead and families fall apart due to undevolped so called teachers leading others when they themselves can not even cope with life. One must be very carful when choosing.

 

Something I found very funny in India, especially in Banaras was all these westeners (I am westener too) wanting to be spiritual and doing Yogi stuff, however they seemed to have forgotten about actually looking after there hygine, many who I spoke to where ridilied with diseases but yet they believed that it was un important or something. I since then hold the understanting that one must master there physical before you look deeply into the spiritual.

 

If your messed up, what you see will also be messed up. ...Just an idea I have........I am only a pup.

 

 

thanks again

 

vitagong

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Thanks Lin

 

Here is something I posted a while back in Off Topic

I think it is appropriate to this discussion.

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1282796533661048967

 

 

Thank you for that video. In both daily living without cultivation of mind and with cultivation of mind, regard for all living beings is fundamental. Even high level cultivators, which are wise, know that regard for others is most important. It is only states of mind where one will take advantage of another for their own benefit. It is not wise, and or enlightened to overwhelm another for your benefit, or for anyone's benefit despite the reason. This is why Buddhas are Buddhas, Bodhisattvas are Bodhisattvas, Immortals of great virtue and moral are as they are. Any one can do what is considered evil, and yet not everyone will do it.

That is the basic difference. In the relative states, there is good and bad. Bad gets bad, good gets good. How you handle it is what forms your experience.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

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I don't know. I think all bets are off when you are dealing with real masters. We cannot know the laws and guidelines that apply to their reality.

 

Though there is a disclaimer here, I still think you are making the mistake of presuming that what you have learned about wholesomeness and unwholesomeness is a universal law.

 

This stuff is completely subjective and paradigmatic. What is evil in one paradigm may be acceptable or even helpful in another. This is what makes it possible to have many vastly different methods of achieving liberation.

 

In your tradition this may be truth. In another a different truth may exist. Not easy for the logical mind to embrace this sort of paradox.

In any case I am not arguing. Just expanding.

Edited by darebak

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Lin, That was a good article and I am glad that you wrote it. The teacher I was previously studying with I found out that his Master was taking chi from bulls to fill the Dan Tien of the students. The bulls would die a week later. It seemed wrong to me.

 

I asked Max about this practice during a private session. He told me that this was chi stealing because you are taking life force from an object that you are not supposed to be taking it from. The bull doesn't give you permission to steal its life force. This is following the left hand path of Daoism. Max told me that there is a price to pay for that in that the person would have a slow and painful death.

 

Max said that the Daoist Masters that he has known that have followed the left handed path have gone crazy or died slow and painful deaths. He said that this is from taking life force from others and not doing the work yourself. He said that a lot of times the Masters who follow the left handed path will have their son or daughter die an early death so as a practice many of these Masters will only teach members outside the family.

 

Max told me that in the old days lots of Masters did this because it was a matter of life or death and that they had to protect their family and temples but he said that he has never seen anyone reach enlightenment by taking life force from another.

 

He told me that you need to have patience to do the work yourself and mentioned that Kunlun was designed for you to do it yourself so you don't have to take it from something outside yourself.

 

Craig

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Lin, That was a good article and I am glad that you wrote it. The teacher I was previously studying with I found out that his Master was taking chi from bulls to fill the Dan Tien of the students. The bulls would die a week later. It seemed wrong to me.

 

I asked Max about this practice during a private session. He told me that this was chi stealing because you are taking life force from an object that you are not supposed to be taking it from. The bull doesn't give you permission to steal its life force. This is following the left hand path of Daoism. Max told me that there is a price to pay for that in that the person would have a slow and painful death.

 

Max said that the Daoist Masters that he has known that have followed the left handed path have gone crazy or died slow and painful deaths. He said that this is from taking life force from others and not doing the work yourself. He said that a lot of times the Masters who follow the left handed path will have their son or daughter die an early death so as a practice many of these Masters will only teach members outside the family.

 

Max told me that in the old days lots of Masters did this because it was a matter of life or death and that they had to protect their family and temples but he said that he has never seen anyone reach enlightenment by taking life force from another.

 

He told me that you need to have patience to do the work yourself and mentioned that Kunlun was designed for you to do it yourself so you don't have to take it from something outside yourself.

 

Craig

 

That is good to hear. I am relieved to hear such things come from Max Shifu. And what he says here is true indeed.

 

I don't have any traditions to follow. Cultivation in general reveals answers. It only depends on which state we attach to in order to interpret what arises. Cultivation also teaches not to attach to states, therefore regarding something as proper and improper can lead to attachment to states unless it is used for specific functions, consciously.

 

Peace,

Lin

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Craig

 

But Max follows the Left hand path also and eats meat!! :o HMM Did max tell you he is from the left hand path cause i mentioned this months ago but no one took notice glad you brought it up?

 

Does kunlun use females to help them get there re-enlightment so is that considered chi stealing???

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I don't know. I think all bets are off when you are dealing with real masters. We cannot know the laws and guidelines that apply to their reality.

 

Though there is a disclaimer here, I still think you are making the mistake of presuming that what you have learned about wholesomeness and unwholesomeness is a universal law.

 

So if the master sucked the life force out of another human being instead of the bulls, would you still have the same opinion brother? Out of curiosity, are you more interested in obtaining power or liberation?

 

This stuff is completely subjective and paradigmatic. What is evil in one paradigm may be acceptable or even helpful in another. This is what makes it possible to have many vastly different methods of achieving liberation.

 

In your tradition this may be truth. In another a different truth may exist.

 

Sounds a lot like moral relativism Darebak.

 

 

Not easy for the logical mind to embrace this sort of paradox.

In any case I am not arguing. Just expanding.

 

I think you may have actually stumbled upon the solution. Stop relying on the logical mind to rationalize what is right and wrong and trust your feelings/instincts.

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Guest winpro07

Totally right there ;) Wisdom has no rational -it just is.

So if the master sucked the life force out of another human being instead of the bulls, would you still have the same opinion brother? Out of curiosity, are you more interested in obtaining power or liberation?

Sounds a lot like moral relativism Darebak.

I think you may have actually stumbled upon the solution. Stop relying on the logical mind to rationalize what is right and wrong and trust your feelings/instincts.

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There are many instances in the YiJing where eating meat, shhooting game , hunting, cooking meat etc... are used as indications of well-being and health.

 

This is just one more instance where Taoists and Buddhists differ.

Taoists look to life for answers in the here and now... Buddhists seem to want to avoid what makes them uncomfortible and that which is not simplified into "good/bad " practice....

 

There is a time to kill and a time to heal...

 

I say- Be what you must be to further LIFE as the time dictates...Furthering your efforts for pie in the sky status as a spirit leaves me laughing at the foolish folly we humans foist upon ourselves and others...Live as you see fit -"doing death" is just life transfering itself place to place... there is no inherent value in merit or good will... there is value in excepting the reality of this world and the razors' edge we walk to be beings that are both integral and transcendant...

 

I have been vegitarian and understand its' lure. But it has no inherent value over carnivorous behaviors.

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"The evil that is in the world always comes of ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence, if they lack understanding. On the whole men are more good than bad; that, however, isn't the real point. But they are more or less ignorant, and it is this that we call vice or virtue; the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything and therefore claims for itself the right to kill. There can be no true goodness, nor true love, without the utmost clear-sightedness. "

 

Albert Camus - The Plague

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There are many instances in the YiJing where eating meat, shhooting game , hunting, cooking meat etc... are used as indications of well-being and health.

 

This is just one more instance where Taoists and Buddhists differ.

Taoists look to life for answers in the here and now... Buddhists seem to want to avoid what makes them uncomfortible and that which is not simplified into "good/bad " practice....

 

There is a time to kill and a time to heal...

 

I say- Be what you must be to further LIFE as the time dictates...Furthering your efforts for pie in the sky status as a spirit leaves me laughing at the foolish folly we humans foist upon ourselves and others...Live as you see fit -"doing death" is just life transfering itself place to place... there is no inherent value in merit or good will... there is value in excepting the reality of this world and the razors' edge we walk to be beings that are both integral and transcendant...

 

I have been vegitarian and understand its' lure. But it has no inherent value over carnivorous behaviors.

 

 

Funny thing is I never seen a Buddhist text describe how to avoid things. On the contrary, Buddhist cultivation is to realize one's causes and conditions, and chang ethem, not avoid them. It is unfortunate there have been many ignorant famous Buddhist cultivators teaching incorrect things out there in history.

 

Things like you state above require good physical stamina, such as shooting game, and hunting. If you can do these things, you are probably in good health already and are making a lot of money from that strong body and good health. Eating meat and cooking meat...well, back in the day, not many people had a lot of money, especially in China. Chinese people were not always rich, even during the Tang Dynasty. So eating meat was a symbol of having a lot of money, as is today. The more expensive the meat you buy, the more important you are seen.

 

Today in China, the price of meat has risen a lot. But people still buy it so they don't look poor to their friends. They laugh at you if you are vegetarian, saying you are just too poor to buy meat. They mock you if you buy less expensive clothing, saying you are too old fashioned and not in with modern times, as well as too poor, a country hick, etc. And if you are Chinese, wearing Chinese clothing, you are mocked at 10 times worst, and viewed as a crazy person, out of touch with modern fashion and ways of the world. People never leave you alone in the streets.

 

The difference with Buddhist and Daoist thought is that regardless of what conditions dictate, Buddhists realize how to change them and why its not good to stay in the flow of the ups and downs without consciously knowing the cause and effects of things. But then again, even though Daoists, some, may follow the Yi Jing, they do know that changing the conditions and causes are very important. They just don't sit back and for the sake of saying the Yi Jing is correct, do nothing about the prediction they received.

 

---

 

Generally speaking:

 

Lastly, just because a Daoist does something, doesn't make it right. We can't always look at the label DAO and assume its all natural and wonderful. Just because they believe in something doesn't make their belief wholesome. I've seen Daoist monks smoking cigarettes right on their temple grounds. The head monk told me its unfortunate that they are not cultivating properly, and smoking.

But if you show the picture of the Daoist Monks smoking to westerners, they'll say, "Look, Look, he's smoking, he's a Daoist! It must be okay to smoke!".

 

There are Buddhist monks who smoke int he Theravada Tradition saying its not breaking the precepts, and that its not an attachment. Its all Garbage what they say, yet people buy into it ignorantly.

 

 

Meat was a status symbol in history, and still is today. Thus its display of having money and health integrated in the Yi Jing.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

Edited by 林愛偉

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