Karlonomics and Opportunity costs

[Karl]

~~~ ADMIN MESSAGE ~~~

 

I want to clarify that this is a split from another topic... on its own, it has interesting content, so I hope the conversation can continue here.

 

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Get a (better) paying job. That way you have more choice.

[Karl]

Except meditation isn't 'free'. It has an opportunity cost. Instead of meditating we could be producing goods, earning more money to buy better food, mending the broken slate which is allowing water to destroy our dwelling. It is free of immediate monetary cost, but, as they say, time IS money. Even if we regard money simply as energy, then time spent doing one thing, must be weighed against the energy out put of another thing. In the end we must choose to survive and, whatever we choose to do impacts the success of our strategy.

 

There is always a cost.

[Stosh]

Except meditation isn't 'free'. It has an opportunity cost. Instead of meditating we could be producing goods, earning more money to buy better food, mending the broken slate which is allowing water to destroy our dwelling. It is free of immediate monetary cost, but, as they say, time IS money. Even if we regard money simply as energy, then time spent doing one thing, must be weighed against the energy out put of another thing. In the end we must choose to survive and, whatever we choose to do impacts the success of our strategy.

 

There is always a cost.

If you worked and slaved, elevating your cortisol levels etc , and died sooner because of not meditating ..... ..  

[Karl]

If you worked and slaved, elevating your cortisol levels etc , and died sooner because of not meditating ..... ..

 

There isn't any disagreement. One might well choose meditation as the best option, but it isn't free, there is an opportunity cost. If you were facing an oncoming train I would suggest that meditation isn't going to help, you might well be calmer as a result and be less frightened than you would have been, but when there is an option to get off the tracks, then the opportunity cost is your life. That's pretty expensive.

[Stosh]

There isn't any disagreement. One might well choose meditation as the best option, but it isn't free, there is an opportunity cost. If you were facing an oncoming train I would suggest that meditation isn't going to help, you might well be calmer as a result and be less frightened than you would have been, but when there is an option to get off the tracks, then the opportunity cost is your life. That's pretty expensive.

Yeah, but since on doesn't really know what the ramifications of his actions are fully, like ironically getting hit by a bus while jogging.. I dont think one really CAN make knowledgeable decisions about the relative costs. Things like mental health cannot be measured , nor the advantage of eating organic vegetables etc. I know I consciously made all the decisions that happened to me till this day , and yet I find myself in a place and situation , which I never envisioned. If I did know the ramifications of my decisions actually and well, I certainly wouldnt being doing this here.

Like wise, as a kid , you did Not envision this moment , me , or this sentence. So your plans couldnt aim you at this. 

Edited September 7, 2016 by Stosh

[rene]

[zerostao]

There is always a cost.

playing bagua is like paying yourself

edit>any qigong is like that

daoist meditation is where you really really pay yourself

Edited September 7, 2016 by zerostao

[dawei]

Get a (better) paying job. That way you have more choice.

 

~~~ ADMIN NOTICE ~~~

 

This got reported pretty quickly and I understand why.  This is where we try to encourage newcomers to open up more and share their lives.   While I'm not saying we can't be straight and honest on our thoughts, it ought to at least stay on topic and be more welcoming.

 

The newcomer area is watched a little more so for these reasons so I hope folks who decide to post there can do so respectfully.

 

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[Karl]

Yeah, but since on doesn't really know what the ramifications of his actions are fully, like ironically getting hit by a bus while jogging.. I dont think one really CAN make knowledgeable decisions about the relative costs. Things like mental health cannot be measured , nor the advantage of eating organic vegetables etc. I know I consciously made all the decisions that happened to me till this day , and yet I find myself in a place and situation , which I never envisioned. If I did know the ramifications of my decisions actually and well, I certainly wouldnt being doing this here.

Like wise, as a kid , you did Not envision this moment , me , or this sentence. So your plans couldnt aim you at this.

 

 

Yes, that is correct. This isn't about which is the better decision is, only that there is always an opportunity cost of taking that decision as opposed to some other decision. For better or worse. Making relative value judgements is something entirely different.

 

The OP asks a question like the man who walks into the doctor and asks for a pill to make him better, he doesn't care what the pill is, nor what it does, neither is he quite sure why he wants it, but, as long as it doesn't cost any money he will take it.

[Karl]

~~~ ADMIN NOTICE ~~~

 

This got reported pretty quickly and I understand why.  This is where we try to encourage newcomers to open up more and share their lives.   While I'm not saying we can't be straight and honest on our thoughts, it ought to at least stay on topic and be more welcoming.

 

The newcomer area is watched a little more so for these reasons so I hope folks who decide to post there can do so respectfully.

 

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It doesn't harm to evoke some thinking on the nature of the practice requirement, the Internet is chock full of monetarily free advice on practices. Does it really harm to provoke thought ? I do understand your point of view by the way, so I will curb it in that area.

[Karl]

....and I must admit to a certain misplaced pride in someone naming a thread a Karlism. I think Karlosophy and Karlonomics might be nice ;-)

[ralis]

Get a (better) paying job. That way you have more choice.

 

In many places here in the USA, there are no higher paying jobs. Especially, in poor urban areas.

[Karl]

In many places here in the USA, there are no higher paying jobs. Especially, in poor urban areas.

That's what legs are for.

 

The reason there are fewer jobs is that people are wedded to the idea of getting free stuff. The more free stuff they get, the less employment there is. Poor urban areas are today's plantations serving the interests of those in power who purport to be helping them.

[Stosh]

There isn't any disagreement. One might well choose meditation as the best option, but it isn't free, there is an opportunity cost. If you were facing an oncoming train I would suggest that meditation isn't going to help, you might well be calmer as a result and be less frightened than you would have been, but when there is an option to get off the tracks, then the opportunity cost is your life. That's pretty expensive.

Yep in that kind of scenario , yes , we do have that level of being able to make a helpful judgement, and yes that is crucial.  No doubt . But our ability to predict , to envision, still remains a very short distance from any individual Now. 

IMO What gives the illusion that one can predict far in advance , is 1 oversimplification of the factors and consequences, and 2 ignoring or passing off as a fluke, that which doesn't conform to the abstract chain of events we envisioned. 

 

In talking to people in real life , Ive asked for conversational reasons , "as a kid , Did you ever really expect to be doing this for a living ?" the answer has always been no. In fact its been emphatically a 'hell no'. 

I gotta agree though that at least conceptually , a 'good job' has perks , but .. like you said.. there are costs too. 

Parents do try to encourage kids in a productive vein, but , frankly the stockbroker with coronary heart disease or diabetes , or a drug problem ... probably didnt add that to the calculation when He enrolled for his MBA. Same as the guy with a low status job probably didn't foresee the love of his life, divorcing him for the burnt out stockbroker. 

[zerostao]

In many places here in the USA, there are no higher paying jobs. Especially, in poor urban areas.

aint too many in poor rural areas either

[blackstar212]

In many places here in the USA, there are no higher paying jobs. Especially, in poor urban areas.

I agree.

 

It is an illusion. If everyone went to school and got a doctorate there would still be people manning the walmarts, mcdonalds low paying jobs of the world etc. It is that way with a terrible system. Class hierarchy.

[Karl]

Yep in that kind of scenario , yes , we do have that level of being able to make a helpful judgement, and yes that is crucial.  No doubt . But our ability to predict , to envision, still remains a very short distance from any individual Now. 

IMO What gives the illusion that one can predict far in advance , is 1 oversimplification of the factors and consequences, and 2 ignoring or passing off as a fluke, that which doesn't conform to the abstract chain of events we envisioned. 

 

In talking to people in real life , Ive asked for conversational reasons , "as a kid , Did you ever really expect to be doing this for a living ?" the answer has always been no. In fact its been emphatically a 'hell no'. 

I gotta agree though that at least conceptually , a 'good job' has perks , but .. like you said.. there are costs too. 

Parents do try to encourage kids in a productive vein, but , frankly the stockbroker with coronary heart disease or diabetes , or a drug problem ... probably didnt add that to the calculation when He enrolled for his MBA. Same as the guy with a low status job probably didn't foresee the love of his life, divorcing him for the burnt out stockbroker.

 

I don't think you are getting this. This isn't anything to do with judgement, wisdom, knowledge, vision, predictions. I'm simply saying that if you choose to be doing one thing then by deduction you cannot be doing another thing. Look up 'opportunity cost'.

 

I'm happy to discuss judgement but that's another subject entirely. For the moment all I'm saying is that meditating means we can't also be out earning money, painting our toe nails or shaving the cat.

[Brian]

I agree.

 

It is an illusion. If everyone went to school and got a doctorate there would still be people manning the walmarts, mcdonalds low paying jobs of the world etc. It is that way with a terrible system. Class hierarchy.

You see this as an example of "class hierarchy"?

 

I'm curious -- tell me more about this terrible system and about how you envision the optimal system would be structured.

[ralis]

I agree.

 

It is an illusion. If everyone went to school and got a doctorate there would still be people manning the walmarts, mcdonalds low paying jobs of the world etc. It is that way with a terrible system. Class hierarchy.

 

Something to the effect of 60,000 factories have been shipped overseas with the majority to China. Software jobs have been shipped to India and so forth. Corporate greed! No import tariffs that level the playing field.

Edited September 7, 2016 by ralis

[ralis]

You see this as an example of "class hierarchy"?

 

I'm curious -- tell me more about this terrible system and about how you envision the optimal system would be structured.

 

His assessment is correct. The middle class is being stripped of jobs and opportunity whereby the wealth is in the hands of a few.

[Brian]

His assessment is correct. The middle class is being stripped of jobs and opportunity whereby the wealth is in the hands of a few.

Since you raised your hand, perhaps you'd like like to share your understanding and vision? I truly AM curious and I'll do nothing worse than maybe ask a few questions along the way. I've always found this theory of class warfare interesting.

[Karl]

Something to the effect of 60,000 factories have been shipped overseas with the majority to China. Software jobs have been shipped to India and so forth. Corporate greed!

Not if your population can't afford to buy things because your government has made labour so expensive that business is forced to move its factories to other countries.

 

It was inevitable that when a new labour and goods market for multiple millions opened up it would cause rapid change. Manufacturers must compete or die. They couldn't compete by remaining in the USA-which I suspect they would have much preferred.

 

We're it not for cheap Chinese imports being sold on the imaginary strength of the US dollar the USA would be suffering massive cost inflation. Eventually, the dollar will fall in value and even Chinese goods will no longer be affordable. The inflation that was exported from the USA to China will roar back across the ocean with a vengeance. It's only the idiotic management of the Chinese economy that has prevented this occurring.

 

So, not corporate greed, but corporate competition to maintain competitiveness which keeps goods flowing and prices low for US consumers. If the US wanted the manufacturers to return, they only need to change domestic policy, cut welfare, cut taxes, cut red tape, licensing, boondoggles, subsidies, Tarriffs, regulation, minimum wage laws, employment laws and all the fraud that goes on in the name of monetary policy. Return to laissez faire capitalism, seperate state from commerce and the ordinary guy can have a chance at a bit of self respect and share in a wealth boom.

[ralis]

Since you raised your hand, perhaps you'd like like to share your understanding and vision? I truly AM curious and I'll do nothing worse than maybe ask a few questions along the way. I've always found this theory of class warfare interesting.

 

We are not in school here and you certainly are not the teacher. I suppose that the economic problems facing this country are not affecting you?

[ralis]

Not if your population can't afford to buy things because your government has made labour so expensive that business is forced to move its factories to other countries.

 

It was inevitable that when a new labour and goods market for multiple millions opened up it would cause rapid change. Manufacturers must compete or die. They couldn't compete by remaining in the USA-which I suspect they would have much preferred.

 

We're it not for cheap Chinese imports being sold on the imaginary strength of the US dollar the USA would be suffering massive cost inflation. Eventually, the dollar will fall in value and even Chinese goods will no longer be affordable. The inflation that was exported from the USA to China will roar back across the ocean with a vengeance. It's only the idiotic management of the Chinese economy that has prevented this occurring.

 

So, not corporate greed, but corporate competition to maintain competitiveness which keeps goods flowing and prices low for US consumers. If the US wanted the manufacturers to return, they only need to change domestic policy, cut welfare, cut taxes, cut red tape, licensing, boondoggles, subsidies, Tarriffs, regulation, minimum wage laws, employment laws and all the fraud that goes on in the name of monetary policy. Return to laissez faire capitalism, seperate state from commerce and the ordinary guy can have a chance at a bit of self respect and share in a wealth boom.

 

Your narrative is nothing but BS and does not apply regarding your warped conspiracy that it is all the governments fault. You don't live here and know nothing about the USA. I live it everyday and am not some person sitting in a dark corner of their bedroom typing away each and everyday out of boredom with nothing better to do.

[Karl]

His assessment is correct. The middle class is being stripped of jobs and opportunity whereby the wealth is in the hands of a few.

Putting aside the assessment on class, you correctly identify the effect but are ignorant of the cause, or you deny the cause because it doesn't suit your political agenda for socialism. The old Marxian 'class' argument has floundered and collapsed due to the success of the industrial revolution. We already have all these massive government welfare schemes and wealth distribution, we have unions, minimum wage laws and any company can set itself up as a workers cooperative if it wishes. Yet, yet, still the middle class has been hollowed out and as the welfare schemes, government growth and taxation has increased, the destruction of the middle classes has accelerated. The damage to ethnic and low skilled is to relegate them to lives of broken families, drug use and no opportunity for employment except the criminal kind- is it any wonder the morgues and prisons are full of young black men ?