What is the energetic cost of practicing Magic?

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I had this exchange in another thread, but I think it is very apropos the original question, especially on the Dao Bums where the background of even our little magic section here is Dao:
 

 

I hear that a lot here on this forum. Does this mean gaining extraordinary abilities is inherently harmful? Even if it is just tricks, what's wrong with that? Not to mention being able to light a candle without a lighter could be damn useful at times!
And what's wrong with disillusionment?

Think about it in terms of becoming independently wealthy. If you spend your money on this, that or the other thing, you will never be able to achieve enough wealth to be independent. One of the Rothchilds described real wealth as having enough money that one could live on the interest from ones interest, in other words that one had so much of monetary principle that it was never tapped at all, but continued to accrue interest and feed the principle, but that the interest generated by ones interest was what one would have available to spend freely and live a life befitting a Rothchild. When your jing, qi and shen are so developed the that your core energy is not tapped by playing magical tricks for people, you can do them without harming yourself.

There are other ways to approach the matter, but this summarizes the situation from the perspective of "body" based cultivation, but basically the key in any case is, to put a cliche in the right order, one should strive to be Wise, Healthy and Wealthy, because a wise man, will preserve his health while he accrues his wealth, whether spiritual or temporal.

 

Modern Western magic is very weak on its health maintenance methods, and any traditional ones, such as Galenic medicine and Hermetic medicine are no longer living traditions, though Western Hermetic practices have undergone a significant revival in the last fifty years.

Chinese methods are part of a living tradition of medicine and physiology, as well as a meditative and ritual tradition that again, has been maintained as a living tradition. That is part of the reason why, circa 1970, I started studying the Chinese systems, which wasn't easy then, bearing in mind the paucity of information available. In the long run I have found the Chinese and Western systems complementary, but that is another story, and a long one.

I hope this is helpful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: After posting I realized that I had not copied over the introductory paragraph from the word processor that I use to prepare most of my posts.  So I added it.

[FraterUFA]

. 

Edited September 24, 2016 by FraterUFA

[Rakiel]

. 

Edited September 26, 2016 by Rakiel

[FraterUFA]

.

Edited September 24, 2016 by FraterUFA

[Nungali]

 This is really interesting. Without asking you to prove this, would you mind elaborating a little. I assume this isn't the stuff being taught in 'mystery schools' today.

 

Of course it is . depends what you consider a mystery school.   Some have  a 'magic medicine' at the heart of their  'central mystery '

 

Some more 'outer '  groups medicines  may be available at their shop outlet in your local city ?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthroposophic_medicine

Edited August 28, 2016 by Nungali

[Nungali]

I am not necessarily saying their magic and alchemical medicines   actually work   though   

[FraterUFA]

.

Edited September 24, 2016 by FraterUFA

[Nungali]

AMORC ?    Spencer Lewis started that from the 'authority' of a certificate declaring he had done his preliminary ( O degree )  Minerval initiation in the O.T.O. 

 

However , some may consider charging a glass of water in sunlight 'alchemy' .    

 

Gotta admit .... they got a snazzy HQs  !  

 

[FraterUFA]

.

Edited September 24, 2016 by FraterUFA

[9th]

Potentially there is use of personal energy, collective energy, environmental energy, earthly energy, lunar energy, planetary energy, solar energy, galactic energy, cosmic energy, universal energy - and so on.

 

Yes, a constant use of personal energy can deplete your reserves if you do not replenish them (as has been mentioned), and in general, as a matter of course, in terms of the "proper way" (such as the "true men of old" or so forth) the only personal energy that is used in such a way is that which is in surplus.  Thus there is a need for generating an abundance of personal energy, to be kept in a reserve which is above and beyond the concerns of a "normal, average" lifestyle.  This kind of "non-ordinary" lifestyle in which an over-abundance of personal energy is generated is the true hallmark of "self-cultivation" (as it is called on this forum).

 

It does often seem that most people who would call themselves "magicians" tend not to do this, and therefore encounter problems in this area as well as many others.  In general this relates to the so-called placement of carts and horses.  There are a great number of debilitating life issues which spring from a lack of understanding regarding the chain of causation, or karma (in other words "the chicken or the egg").

 

Likewise, usage of energies which are sourced from "outside" the body can deplete personal energy and/or damage a person, depending on the situation.  Or they can empower a person and allow them to grow into new forms which harness new possibilities and drive their evolution forward into new realms of life.

 

Just as in many other fields of activity, you usually learn by making mistakes.  Some mistakes are not only inevitable but entirely required.  Sometimes those mistakes are more costly than others  - some people lose their lives over them, some people rebound and become twice the person they once were, and some people have results between these extremes - one thing that is for sure is that a change of some sort will happen eventually, because it is not possible to remain the same once these practices are truly set in motion.  

 

There are not many hard and fast rules for any of this because of the wide variation of people in general, and the nature of these endeavors themselves rely on such unknowns.  This is complicated by the fact that the science of energy is not a well established and well understood practice for the vast majority of people on earth at this time - one might even say the current level of humanity reflects a massive degradation in this area, which is a point of fascination for many researchers of this topic.  

 

For example, the current systems of Yoga being practiced on a large scale are nowhere near being close to how powerful it was in the bygone eras - and Im talking about those people supposedly practicing the "real thing" and not just doing asanas to tone their abs and look at hot chicks.  And there are many other systems besides Yoga which have been all but forgotten in essence.  There is a legacy of this "internal technology" which belongs to humanity and which has become almost completely dormant by now, but still resides within the collective memory and can be accessed if you know what you are doing.

 

All this is to say that there are possibilities available to humanity that were established long, long, long ago and have remained "open" to this day, and yet their disuse and neglect has caused such things to become dangerous in that people are no longer accustomed to them or familiar enough with the basic principals involved, and therefore are liable to make mistakes.  Its a bit like finding a loaded energy weapon on your kitchen table... whats it for?  hows it work?  who put it there?  But its often more likely that someone would say "hell yeh!  lets go shoot some laser beams!!  pew pew pew!!!", and that can lead to problems.  But you know what they say...

 

 

 

[Albion]

Crowley died addicted to heroin, in an 'Old Folks' home in Hastings, England.

 

He was supported finically by both British and American members of the O.T.O.

 

It is said (and I believe this to be true) that he (Crowley) contributed heavily to the Gardnerian "Wicca" Book of Shadows. He was paid well to do this by Gardner.

 

Gerald Gardner was introduced to Alister Crowley towards the very end of Crowley's life, by Patricia and Arnold Crowther. 

 

Crowley claimed to have left Witch Craft early in his life, because "He didn't like to be bossed about by women".

 

Most (but not ALL) of this comes from Patricia Crowther's book:  'Witchblood'. Which I think is out of print.

 

"Wicca" is nothing like the old Traditional Craft before it.

 

Peace, and I don't answer any questions about this part of my life, in case anyone wonders. Thanks,   D.A.D.

Edited September 24, 2016 by DifferentlyAbledDaoist

[Nungali]

I think you can find much better sources of  information on Crowley than that book .   Or from Wicca ..... or from a 'Wiccan' that calls herself  ' Thelema ' ,  or a 'male witch' who was actually a stage magician and toured around doing a 'Black magic  Show' .

 

I am not sure what you mean about 'this part of your life ' ?    What part of your life ?

 

Oh .... yeah, you dont answer questions about that  .... what ever it is     

[noonespecial]

Oh man this is a sticky subject, I dont think there is any unbroken line from egypt or sumeria until now, if there is, you will surely find it in the middle east under the guise of sufism and not europe with any golden dawn offshoot including crowley and wicca.

[Nungali]

 No way there would be an unbroken line ..... maybe some dotted lines ?  

 

This one is interesting 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidis

 

but accretions are always picked up over time, unless there is a total isolation happening  

[noonespecial]

Dotted lines is more appropriate...actually thats a great description 

 

And yes, the Yazids and the Druze have really kept the gnostic flame alive, and even the Shia if you look in the right places. 

[Albion]

I think you can find much better sources of  information on Crowley than that book .   Or from Wicca ..... or from a 'Wiccan' that calls herself  ' Thelema ' ,  or a 'male witch' who was actually a stage magician and toured around doing a 'Black magic  Show' .

 

I am not sure what you mean about 'this part of your life ' ?    What part of your life ?

 

Oh .... yeah, you dont answer questions about that  .... what ever it is     

 

 

Here is what I found.

 

A lot of people on some pretty serious power trips. Pretty shitty people. Most (almost all) of whom were liars.

 

That is, wanting power over OTHER PEOPLE. And who would not, or could not, tell the truth.

 

That sucks.

 

If there is (ANY) truth to Old Craft (pre-wiccan-Gardnerian) stuff, it's this.  It's usually Kabbalistic, or Ceremonial Magic (as a foundation) and it still wants power over other people, that still SUCKS.

 

And I *seriously doubt* that it goes back beyond the 17th Century.

 

I'd like to believe that there are oral traditions, that is, that was not written down, in very out of the way places in the Scottish Highlands, and Ireland, that are far older, then any silly ass "wiccan" stuff.

 

But even if there were (are), they don't go back to the people who built the standing stones, as some would have us believe. Nice faery tale, too bad it's NOT true.

 

And even those people still wanted POWER OVER OTHER PEOPLE. That still SUCKS.

 

Crowley was a heroin addict. That's a fact.

 

"..........Love is the law, love under will."   D.A.D.

Edited September 25, 2016 by DifferentlyAbledDaoist

[Nungali]

Here is what I found.

 

A lot of people on some pretty serious power trips. Pretty shitty people. Most (almost all) of whom were liars.

 

yeah ..... its in all walks of life though, dont you find ?  I know some find this more in the subjects you speak of, but really it seems to relate to any potential power position, and they also gravitate to other areas like law and government .

 

 

 

That is, wanting power over OTHER PEOPLE. And who would not, or could not, tell the truth.

 

That sucks.

 

Sure does !   ....  real 'magic'  should be about finding your own power and balance  the development of yourself and your own potentials. 

 

If there is (ANY) truth to Old Craft (pre-wiccan-Gardnerian) stuff, it's this.

 

Surely not all of it ? I am certain midwifery played its part in it ? 

 

 It's usually Kabbalistic, or Ceremonial Magic (as a foundation) and it still wants power over other people, that still SUCKS.

 

I have never considered kabbalah as a method to have power over people . 

 

And I *seriously doubt* that it goes back beyond the 17th Century.

 

Do you mean Wicca ?  Or pre- Wicca  'Old  Craft '  ?

 

I'd like to believe that there are oral traditions, that is, that was not written down, in very out of the way places in the Scottish Highlands, and Ireland, that are far older, then any silly ass "wiccan" stuff.

 

'  Silly ass '           .....  I would have thought Wiccans learnt that lesson after the 'flogging'  of the ass in their ritual    

 

But even if there were (are), they don't go back to the people who built the standing stones, as some would have us believe. Nice faery tale, too bad it's NOT true.

 

What fairy tale is that ?  ... that Wiccans built Stonehenge ?  I havent heard that one . 

 

And even those people still wanted POWER OVER OTHER PEOPLE. That still SUCKS.

 

Its the 'way of the world' it seems  ?

 

Crowley was a heroin addict. That's a fact.

 

yeah, that is a fact, he openly admitted his addiction, but it doesnt make the above book a good source  of info on him

 

........Love is the law, love under will."   D.A.D.

 

 

Love ?   .....  eros or agape  ?    ......   Will ?   ......    dýnami tis thélisis  or ton skopó tis zoís

 

    

Edited September 25, 2016 by Nungali

[silent thunder]

where is baguakicksass when we need her...

 

In my limited experience with it, I'd say the cost of magic depends on the nature of what is involved in the intention, reverberated back upon the caster x3...  so whatever goes out, comes back triplefold.

[Nungali]

where is baguakicksass when we need her...

 

In my limited experience with it, I'd say the cost of magic depends on the nature of what is involved in the intention,

 

I would go along with that 

 

 

reverberated back upon the caster x3...  so whatever goes out, comes back triplefold.

 

I dont go along with that  ..... it seems to implicate some strange karmic adjustments ,( to put it  really simply)  ; does Hitler have to reincarnate 9 million times and get gassed ?  

 

Some people'get away with it'  .... some dont.  Sometimes every good deed brings 'retribution' , other times a boon .   That 3 fold return thingo ?    It seems some new agey wiccany thing IMO  , with no evidence that I have ever seen . 

 

I have seen a 'reverb' a few times ... its usually an 'eye for an eye' when it happens .... I dont know how it could multiply to 3x ?  

 

Unless it is 'served back' with some 'pepper' on it  .

[Nungali]

Then again I suppose some cost is to be extracted if one calls up the wrong forces ;

 

 

 

 

[Albion]

Dear Nungali,

 

  In the 12th Century there was a Norman invasion in Britain. They brought with them their gods and goddesses. The ancient churches there still show this. The Green Man, the Sheila na-geigh, phallic symbols, and other things carved in ancient churches in Britain (and Ireland too I *think*).

 

But the 12th Century is a long ways from the days when the stone circles, and standing stones, and places like New- grange in Ireland were built.

 

Could there be something left in the 16th or 17th centuries, some bits of Norman oral tradition, left from the Normans?

 

I find it to be extremely doubtful.

 

Whenever I mention "wiccans", "wiccans" came out the 1940's and the early 1950's.

 

Even "wicca" as a word was invented by Gardner, and maybe Valiente.  'Wica' (one 'C') meaning 'wise' in the Saxon language. But wica is NOT "wicca".

 

Do I think that "Old Craft" people perform their rites at the old sacred places? Yes, they do.

 

 But how you got it that I said "wiccans" built Stone Henge, gee's that beats me!  

 

And if things are still like they were many years ago, there's NO love lost between the Old Craft people, and "wiccans".

 

Anyway, that's about it. No one really knows *who* the people were who built places like Stone Henge and New Grange.

 

At least that's how it was years ago. Built honestly, I've not kept up with the current research on the megalithic peoples. 

 

Peace,  D.A.D.

Edited September 26, 2016 by DifferentlyAbledDaoist

[Nungali]

Dear Nungali,

 

  In the 12th Century there was a Norman invasion in Britain. They brought with them their gods and goddesses. The ancient churches there still show this. The Green Man, the Sheila na-geigh, phallic symbols, and other things carved in ancient churches in Britain (and Ireland too I *think*).

 

But the 12th Century is a long ways from the days from when the stone circles, and standing stones, and places like New- grange in Ireland were built.

 

Could there be something left in the 16th or 17th centuries, some bits of Norman oral tradition, left from the Normans?

 

I find it to be extremely doubtful.

 

Whenever I mention "wiccans", "wiccans" came out the 1940's and the early 1950's.

 

Even "wicca" as a word was invented by Gardner, and maybe Valiente.  'Wica' (one 'C') meaning 'wise' in the Saxon language. But wica is NOT "wicca".

 

Do I think that "Old Craft" people perform their rites at the old sacred places? Yes, they do.

 

 But how you got it that I said "wiccans" built Stone Henge, gee's that beats me!  

 

I was just getting clear about the way you phrased some things that I couldnt understand  - like the 'fairy tale' you mentioned while mentioning wicca and stonehenge - I didnt think that is what YOU thought . ... or said ,  I was asking what you meant . 

 

And if things are still like they were many years ago, there's NO love lost between the Old Craft people, and "wiccans".

 

Anyway, that's about it. No one really knows *who* the people were who built places like Stone Henge and New Grange.

 

At least that's how it was years ago. Built honestly, I've not kept up with the current research on the megalithic peoples. 

 

Peace,  D.A.D.

 

They seemed to have a wide range and interconnected centers , stonehenge may have been a latter development . The northern  'outpost' is a very; interesting place and older. than the last stonehenge developments ;

 

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=orkney+archaeological+sites&rlz=1C1CHBF_enAU699AU699&espv=2&biw=1093&bih=510&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiovuakj6zPAhWGKJQKHYyvB2oQ_AUIBygC

 

 

 

 A very interesting subject, but a bit OT here - I have posts on it elsewhere on DBs

Edited September 26, 2016 by Nungali

[Albion]

Dear Nungali,

 

  You mentioned doubting (I believe) the Kabbalahistic foundations of some parts of older pre-Gardnerian magic.

 

What I'll term 'the Old Craft'.

 

I found this after our last discussion here on Dao Bums.

 

It's really quite long, but it is very fascinating. Take a listen, and see what you think:

 

 

     

 

 

P.S. I thought the stuff being done at the Orkney's was beautiful! Thanks for that link!  I throughly enjoined it!   D.A.D.

Edited September 26, 2016 by DifferentlyAbledDaoist

[silent thunder]

 

where is baguakicksass when we need her...

 

In my limited experience with it, I'd say the cost of magic depends on the nature of what is involved in the intention,

 

I would go along with that 

 

 

reverberated back upon the caster x3...  so whatever goes out, comes back triplefold.

 

I dont go along with that  ..... it seems to implicate some strange karmic adjustments ,( to put it  really simply)  ; does Hitler have to reincarnate 9 million times and get gassed ?  

 

Some people'get away with it'  .... some dont.  Sometimes every good deed brings 'retribution' , other times a boon .   That 3 fold return thingo ?    It seems some new agey wiccany thing IMO  , with no evidence that I have ever seen . 

 

I have seen a 'reverb' a few times ... its usually an 'eye for an eye' when it happens .... I dont know how it could multiply to 3x ?  

 

Unless it is 'served back' with some 'pepper' on it  .

 

The breakdown for the 3x manifestation was explained to me as...

One from the initiator, one for the intention, or the work, and one for the target.

[Nungali]

Dear Nungali,

 

  You mentioned doubting (I believe) the Kabbalahistic foundations of some parts of older pre-Gardnerian magic.

 

What I'll term 'the Old Craft'.

 

I found this after our last discussion here on Dao Bums.

 

It's really quite long, but it is very fascinating. Take a listen, and see what you think:

 

 

     

 

 

P.S. I thought the stuff being done at the Orkney's was beautiful! Thanks for that link!  I throughly enjoined it!   D.A.D.

 

I did ?   I think it is entirely possible that Kabbalah, via way of Heremticism came into Europe and may have effected some traditions in some locations .   That  vid looks interesting, but I am on prepaid and that would use up a lot of credit to watch it - probably all my credit .  

 

(Its just this thing I do, I won't sign a contract, or anything with the provider,  their conditions are unacceptable to me *  , so I am stuck with expensive pay as you go .    However if you know of a link to similar via text I would read it . ) 

 

* some would be outraged about this as I was, if they knew what goes on here, especially compared to other places. 

We are assured we get 'up to '  so much data  per dollar - no speed on that data is assured ... and not many people here understand  what  'up to '  actually means .      Up to   1000 cherries for $10  !   Wow !  ..... pays $10 , gets 20 cherries ....   

 

20 is within the range of 'up to' 1000 . 

 

Then there is this .....  I go to complain at their shop ; "  I have your prepaid mobile device, I put  $50 credit in it, it shows 5.0 on the screen. I go on line and do some stuff. I am finished, the screen shows  4.87 .  I turn everything off.   I check the modem later that day (as some charges, I know, can take some time to register )  -       4.87.   I go to sleep for the night, no uses the computer, I live alone, no one has broken in and used my computer . In the morning ; no credit, need to recharge, cant go online . Where did my credit go !    Later that day, I turn it on again and ....    4.87 and I can connect      What the  hell is going on ? "

 

 Shop girl   ( 'telstra expert '  )   " Did you watch a lot of movies? Movies use up credit ."

 

What ? !                       " Okay .... listen carefully :    I have your prepaid mobile device, I put  $50 credit in it, it shows 5.0 on the screen. I go on line and do some stuff. I am finished, the screen shows  4.87 .  I turn everything off.   I check the modem later that day (as some charges, I know, can take some time to register )  -       4.87.   I go to sleep for the night, no uses the computer, I live alone, no one has broken in and used my computer . In the morning ; no credit, need to recharge, cant go online . Where did my credit go !    Later that day, I turn it on again and ....    4.87 and I can connect      What the  hell is going on ? "

 

Shop expert : "  But .... movies do use up a lot of credit . "