Meditating on the Meditator

[Marblehead]

Someone commented about how the observer cannot observe itself.

 

When watcher watches itself, the subject and object merge and there is only aware stillness

 

That is a difficult concept to deal with for me.  Many years ago I had a dream and I was somebody else and I was watching myself as that person.

 

But then I don't see that anywhere close to the topic of meditation.

 

Can we be aware and yet not identify ourself as separate from what we are aware of?  I think that is possible.  Kinda' like I am one of the pedals of a bicycle.

 

(But then, with my ego I would likely see the rest of the bicycle as extensions of "me".)

[dwai]

That is a difficult concept to deal with for me. Many years ago I had a dream and I was somebody else and I was watching myself as that person.

 

But then I don't see that anywhere close to the topic of meditation.

 

Can we be aware and yet not identify ourself as separate from what we are aware of? I think that is possible. Kinda' like I am one of the pedals of a bicycle.

 

(But then, with my ego I would likely see the rest of the bicycle as extensions of "me".)

The distinction is very fine IMHO. When mind has objects it is my mind. When mind is on observer, there is no mind essentially because there are no "objects" per se (as there are no thoughts). But the switching between objectless consciousness and mind (consciousness with objects) happens very rapidly. The merging of observer and observed is possible more in seated meditation IMHO where all external stimuli are artificially removed (closing of sensory apparatus).

 

In a daoist seated meditation I learnt from my first teacher, we "close" all the "orifices". Including the 5 sensory organs, crown point, the excretionary organs and the knees (closed with palms). Then we are truly "shutting out the external world.

 

But to do that while walking or with eyes open or during taiji it takes on a different effect. Organs still sense but nothing (no one) grasps the sensing. The stimuli appear and fall away.

 

That's why it's also very important to do moving meditation along with seated meditation IMHO. The objective is to be "Self-absorbed" all the time...and I mean that without our general negative connotation associated with it of course!

 

The identity part is nothing but a label right? An identification with the body and mind. If the mind stops (no thoughts), what is there to do the identification?

 

Wu Wei like you said earlier - no attachment. So for day to day purposes yes the body has a name (GOT references only in hindsight here). But really, it doesn't matter...

Edited August 1, 2016 by dwai

[Marblehead]

You did very well with that Dwai.  I too feel that moving meditation is just as important as sitting meditation.  I am very limited in that area though.

 

And yes, I too hold to the understanding that during seated meditation all inputs to the mind should be eliminated.  If I have to pee when I am trying to meditate I'm just not going to meditate well.

[steve]

In a daoist seated meditation I learnt from my first teacher, we "close" all the "orifices". Including the 5 sensory organs, crown point, the excretionary organs and the knees (closed with palms). Then we are truly "shutting out the external world.

 

 

In the dzogchen tradition, it's advised to leave the eyes (and all senses) open which has the effect of helping us to experience the connection or continuity of the inner and outer.

[Wells]

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Edited August 8, 2016 by spacester

[Marblehead]

In the dzogchen tradition, it's advised to leave the eyes (and all senses) open which has the effect of helping us to experience the connection or continuity of the inner and outer.

But that requires serious practice in order to attain.  Leaving the eyes open will present opportunities for distractions because the brain is processing what is seen.  But I can understand the reasoning.

[steve]

But that requires serious practice in order to attain.  Leaving the eyes open will present opportunities for distractions because the brain is processing what is seen.  But I can understand the reasoning.

 

It's not as difficult as it sounds but it does take some practice.

In fact, when you grow accustomed to it you may find that there are more distractions (thoughts, feeling, images) when the eyes are closed.

[Jetsun]

Someone commented about how the observer cannot observe itself.

 

When watcher watches itself, the subject and object merge and there is only aware stillness

I think it was Wayne Liquorman who said something like chasing the meditator is a bit like a dog chasing it's own tail, except that if we do it enough we might have the good fortune of dissappearing up our own ass.

[dwai]

I think it was Wayne Liquorman who said something like chasing the meditator is a bit like a dog chasing it's own tail, except that if we do it enough we might have the good fortune of dissappearing up our own ass.

 

Bwahahaaha!! That's exactly what I felt like when I did it for the first time

[Tibetan_Ice]

Good dzogchen practice books are printed for a very limited audience and not for the public and you will not find them on amazon or in your local book store. There are many dzogchen books available which were first only printed for students and later released to the public (and you can find them now on amazon or in book stores) but I guarantee to you that those special books I am talking about never will be released to the public. These books are written in a no-nonsense approach and the author will not talk in riddles but give very clear practical training advice which doesn't have to be "interpretet". All practically relevant highest level training secrets are discussed in a very clear way in those books. You can consider yourself to be very lucky in case you will ever be able to get such a book into your hands. I guess I read around 80 - 100 dzogchen books from all kinds of sources but I found and possess only one of those very special gems and I see no sense in naming its title or author. Considering the luck that was involved in acquiring it, I would guess it was karma that I possess it now. It also finally ended my long and exhausting research, in which I invested a lot of time, energy and money. It is also the reason why I now only sporadically and on a whim indulge in discussion here and in other forums anymore.

It is most likely the most precious possession I have and ever will have.

After studying it I understood that one small diamond is worth more than a whole mountain of coal.

Isn't relative bodhicitta the aspiration that everyone become enlightened?

 

How does the unwillingness to share the title and author of this wonderful practice manual benefit anyone?

 

Is your secrecy based out of fear? Fear that the light of openness might reveal some flaw in your diamond?

 

There are some sincere practitioners whom frequent this site whom might benefit from such a diamond, not to mention that if you yourself don't achieve rainbow body in this life you may not find that diamond in your next life unless you share.

 

Is it all about you or us?

[Wells]

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Edited August 8, 2016 by spacester

[Marblehead]

 

 

And btw, aren't you the guy who appears in every thread as if he already had all the answers?

That would be me or Karl.

[Cheshire Cat]

(...)

 

There are some sincere practitioners whom frequent this site whom might benefit from such a diamond, not to mention that if you yourself don't achieve rainbow body in this life you may not find that diamond in your next life unless you share.

 

Is it all about you or us?

It all started with tantric initiations in which secrecy protects the practitioner himself, and the vows of the student protect the Guru. In practical term, when the student talks about his practice to others, he breaks samaya vows which in turn damage the efficacy of his practice. ... and the health and good luck of the Guru.

 

It's something with roots in the magical side of vajrayana. Call it superstition if you like, but imho it works exactly like that. At least, consider that the various tibetan gurus think that this is real.

 

Western students have a passion for breaking samaya vows and the gurus noticed it.

Therefore they started teaching dzogchen, a tradition which is free from all this bad karma results and can be sold as a higher teaching.

It'something safer for the gurus. Here's the great popularity of dzogchen.

 

But once you try the sweet exclusiveness, you can't go without it... so why not keep the secrecy for the taste of it?

[Tibetan_Ice]

I find it interesting that you seem suddenly fixated at a book which I find great

and which in fact confirms my personal conclusions about dzogchen,

which you characterized as "misconceptions" which you "corrected"

and which describes the thogal visions how I interpret them,

which you equally dismissed.

In other words: The book does neither fit your convictions nor how you interpret the visions.

 

 

Blue entoptic field phenomenon, sacral cranial pulses of colors, seeing colorful stars when pressing on the eyes etc.. are not true thogal visions. They are physical phenomenon related to the body and the visual mechanics. They are preliminary practice phenomenon. They are useful because they help the practitioner train the awareness to focus and stay focused in the eye consciousness while relaxed but to enter in the domain of true thogal visions one must first be in the natural state. These preliminary visual phenomenon do not require being in the natural state.

 

If you now have a book which ignores that fact, which calls seeing the darting whitish balls flit around, the eye floaters, the sacral cranial pulses of light, etc "thogal visions" then that is not correct. If there is some mention of "preliminary" and distinguishes between the physical phenomenon and the spontaneously arisen manifestations of the clear light, then that would be correct.

 

Some examples of advanced thogal visions are "spheres of rainbow light with people inside" and "whole scenes of landscapes in great detail" .

 

I tried to point this out to you but it appears that your ego could not handle it. You still seem to be holding a grudge and are trying to get even from my elaboration and corrections when in fact, I was pointing out your misunderstandings to the best of my knowledge, experience and understanding.

 

There is a component of thogal visions that requires the natural state, which is similar or the same as third eye sight. If you have not developed your third eye, you will remain in the physical phenomenon side of the practice. Re: the four or six lamps...

 

By your statements about chakras in this very thread you have revealed that you still don't have third eye sight. For, if you did you could see your own chakras and you wouldn't be mocking the Hindu rendition of chakras and their labels based on their functions.

 

The point between the eyebrows is used in thogal to separate out the clear light. If you don't develop that point, good luck with seeing any spontaneous manifestations of clear light.

 

 

 

Karma works by opening up and so you will receive from the universe what fits you and your karma.

That's how I got the right book for me.

My remedy might not be your remedy

and the woman of my dreams is surely your worst nightmare.

 

 

You're right. I gave up women and sex on the physical plane over seven years ago. I live alone and I like it that way.

 

Why are you interested in my remedy and not in yours?

 

Who said I am not interested in my own? Putting words in my mouth?

 

What you seem to do is learn about something, misunderstand it and then leap to outrageous conclusions, attacking that which you did not understand nor have any practical experience with. You dismissed Tenzin Wangyal like that. You didn't get it that there is still awareness in deep sleep in this same thread.

You wrote "In other words: When you really succeed in leading your awareness into emptiness, awareness will simply cease to exist...and simple non-existence of awareness remains.

Which has no more benefit than and in fact is similar to deep sleep."

 

Perhaps you could explain the "no more benefit" part?

 

You deleted all your threads in this forum based on this book? And now you have fantastic claims that this diamond book is the "truth" and all the other hundreds of Dzogchen books are wrong or hiding something.

 

The proof is in the practice, the ripeness of the practitioner and the fruits of those practices. For the ripest practitioner, Garab Dorje's three statements would be enough. But ripe practitioners are extremely rare.

 

For some of us, a book is an introduction and sometimes that introduction is followed by visitations in the astral planes. For others, a book only augments confusion and exacerbates conceptuality.

[Wells]

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Edited August 8, 2016 by spacester