Declaring Realisation Prematurely

[dwai]

If it's correct to say we are still apparently bound by ego, how are you understanding “You are not bound by anything. What does a pure person like you need to renounce?"

It means that when there is no vestige of doubt about your True Self, then there is no further need for renunciation or any volitional action. The action will happen on its own...the organism just goes along with it.

 

You are using your mind/intellect to understand something using logic that is not applicable to the nondual Self. While that approach is relevant and for many seekers necessary, it is also inadequate. It only takes you to the gate...

After that is a leap of assuredness into the unknowable.

Edited December 18, 2016 by dwai

[Jeff]

As far as I understand it, the sixth paramita allows one to go beyond dualistic thoughts and ego-clinging, where everything is realised as a transparent display of primordial truth beyond the 'mind'.

 

Maybe we could stick to the sutras that are attributed to the direct sayings of (Shakyamuni) Buddha as you suggested earlier, having a quick look at some of the book Dakini Teachings I found one view can be contradicted by an alternative view sometimes within the one paragraph, and with such a broad perspective anything could be quoted to prove just about anything. I certainly found a lot of material in it that outright disagrees with your quote above.

 

As Dwai described, I think my attempted point is being lost in my quotes. I am not trying to debate your pursuit for ultimate truth, only sharing my (lazy) view on the matter. Here is how I would put my last quote in my own words...

 

People are really not limited to their local body-mind. It is more like perceived reality is the obscured view of a local mind that extends to universal or shared mind. True realization is not about "seeing" and finding cool stuff and abilities in deeper aspects of universal mind, it is more about "being" all of it.

[liminal_luke]

Oh perfect....I was hoping for a thread in which I could (prematurely) declare my realization -- and here it is!  So yes, if anybody`s wondering, as a matter of fact I`m entirely enlightened.  I`d leave right now to join my egoless peers in the higher realms, but decided to stick around here on Taobums instead just for giggles.  I`m sure you`ll want to know my secret so here it is: let go of everything.  Everything`s perfect.  Be here now.

 

Well, that should do it.

[idiot_stimpy]

Good morning, I love you all.

[Bindi]

It means that when there is no vestige of doubt about your True Self, then there is no further need for renunciation or any volitional action. The action will happen on its own...the organism just goes along with it.

 

You are using your mind/intellect to understand something using logic that is not applicable to the nondual Self. While that approach is relevant and for many seekers necessary, it is also inadequate. It only takes you to the gate...

After that is a leap of assuredness into the unknowable.

 

Certainly the most popular view

 

Nonetheless, if logic (plus a bit more) takes me to the gate, then I've achieved everything I need to achieve. I don't personally feel the need to pre-empt or emulate nondual perception or purity.  

[Jeff]

It means that when there is no vestige of doubt about your True Self, then there is no further need for renunciation or any volitional action. The action will happen on its own...the organism just goes along with it.

You are using your mind/intellect to understand something using logic that is not applicable to the nondual Self. While that approach is relevant and for many seekers necessary, it is also inadequate. It only takes you to the gate...

After that is a leap of assuredness into the unknowable.

Very interesting point, what gate does logic take you to?

[dwai]

Very interesting point, what gate does logic take you to?

The gate through which we have to travel into the Self - beyond the "I am".

[Jeff]

The gate through which we have to travel into the Self - beyond the "I am".

Thanks. But, I would have to disagree. The nature of such logic of the self tends to hide the escape of the self. Only when one surrenders or let's go of such self logic does such a gate even have the potential of existing.

[dwai]

Thanks. But, I would have to disagree. The nature of such logic of the self tends to hide the escape of the self. Only when one surrenders or let's go of such self logic does such a gate even have the potential of existing.

 

yes of course. The gate is the realization that "self logic" is inconclusive. All it does is presents the logical choice in the matter --

 

If Non-dual is ultimately right, then logic and the rational mind needs to be left at the gate before venturing further. Alternately, the seeker discards the non-dual and returns full-on into the dualistic mode.

 

However, when one does the knowledge/introspective meditation that is part of the Advaita tradition, there are many experiential insights one cannot reject, that show clearly that the ego-mind/rational-mind self is relative only. 

 

Especially in the Advaita Vedanta tradition, a very important pre-cursor to the removal of avidya (ignorance) is the logical and rational analysis of the Vedanta philosophy. 

 

Yes, there are many who by-pass this and go straight to "Who Am I?" etc. However, usually one has had to have done significant work (either in previous births or in the present one) to get to a point where the "Who Am I?" actually makes sense.

 

I am speaking from my personal experience of course. I was always attracted to Advaita Vedanta. However, initially (when I was in my 20s), when I tried to study it, I found the material gave me headaches (both literal and allegorical). I did not have what we Hindus call "Adhikara" (or Authority) to study the material. Eventually, the seeds that were present started unfolding, with proper practice and intellectual maturity. And suddenly, the very same words that were difficult to grasp started making sense. 

 

After working the logical side of things out (intellectually), the knowledge blossomed into "a-ha!" moments when the experiential side of things made sense. Of course it was grace that made these moments appear. However, I don't think, in my case, the moments would arise without the ground work being done..however ignorantly or unwittingly it might seem that I started down the path. 

Edited December 19, 2016 by dwai

[Apech]

Good morning, I love you all.

 

 

So you say .... but you never call and you forgot my birthday!

[Brian]

So you say .... but you never call and you forgot my birthday!

Forgot mine, too, so don't think you're special.

[dwai]

So you say .... but you never call and you forgot my birthday!

 

Ask yourself this - "Who is it that was born?"

[Jeff]

...

 

After working the logical side of things out (intellectually), the knowledge blossomed into "a-ha!" moments when the experiential side of things made sense. Of course it was grace that made these moments appear. However, I don't think, in my case, the moments would arise without the ground work being done..however ignorantly or unwittingly it might seem that I started down the path. 

 

 

This above is sort of my point.  It is when you begin to let go of the logic of the self, that the grace of the A-ha moments shines through.  Additionally, I would argue that the knowledge becomes more of a locked in mind set and the conditioned self tends to stick such grace into the framework that it is already comfortable with; that logic of the self fights all the way...

[dwai]

This above is sort of my point.  It is when you begin to let go of the logic of the self, that the grace of the A-ha moments shines through.  Additionally, I would argue that the knowledge becomes more of a locked in mind set and the conditioned self tends to stick such grace into the framework that it is already comfortable with; that logic of the self fights all the way...

 

This knowledge is not just knowledge in the academic sense. It is the essence of that one (Brahman) distilled into verses. It is a proverbial seed that needs to be cultivated properly to grow a healthy and fruitful tree.

 

For any Hindu, the Vedas (including the Upanishads aka Vedanta) are essentially "a-paurushiya" (or not of human origin). They are called "Shruti" i.e. "heard" as opposed to "smriti" i.e. "remembered". Yes, I know...most people today read the "remembered" verses...yet...there are far many more advanced beings (so much more than me that my mind boggles as to how much more) have said without any uncertainty...they are Shruti and therefore are held in highest esteem (agamaha) as being closest to the direct experience (pratyaksha). 

 

The knowledge/intellectual process I refer to is "anumana" (inferential realization). All three Pratyaksha (direct experience), Agamaha (Shruti and testimony of reliable sources) and Anumana (inference) are considered valid sources of the truth, with the highest being Pratyaskha.

 

So, a Vedantin will start with the teachings of a Guru (or in modern times, a commentary by a Guru), who will teach the Upanishads, and during the course of the learning, inferentially come to a certain realization. That is also reinforced by the experiential realizations that occur during the process. It is a gradual process of refinement. That is the Jnana Yoga way. It is however, not meant for everyone (not even necessarily for those who are considered intelligent or exceptionally intelligent in the normal sense).

[Brian]

This knowledge is not just knowledge in the academic sense. It is the essence of that one (Brahman) distilled into verses. It is a proverbial seed that needs to be cultivated properly to grow a healthy and fruitful tree.

 

For any Hindu, the Vedas (including the Upanishads aka Vedanta) are essentially "a-paurushiya" (or not of human origin). They are called "Shruti" i.e. "heard" as opposed to "smriti" i.e. "remembered". Yes, I know...most people today read the "remembered" verses...yet...there are far many more advanced beings (so much more than me that my mind boggles as to how much more) have said without any uncertainty...they are Shruti and therefore are held in highest esteem (agamaha) as being closest to the direct experience (pratyaksha).

 

The knowledge/intellectual process I refer to is "anumana" (inferential realization). All three Pratyaksha (direct experience), Agamaha (Shruti and testimony of reliable sources) and Anumana (inference) are considered valid sources of the truth, with the highest being Pratyaskha.

 

So, a Vedantin will start with the teachings of a Guru (or in modern times, a commentary by a Guru), who will teach the Upanishads, and during the course of the learning, inferentially come to a certain realization. That is also reinforced by the experiential realizations that occur during the process. It is a gradual process of refinement. That is the Jnana Yoga way. It is however, not meant for everyone (not even necessarily for those who are considered intelligent or exceptionally intelligent in the normal sense).

Thank you, dwai.

[3bob]

 Bhakti can supersede logic and in a nanosecond (so to speak) traverse all universe's or tattva's and realize Om!

 

Hari Om Tat Sat 

Edited December 20, 2016 by 3bob