Wondering on the Way v. Zhuangzi

[dawei]

Ok... I'm sold.   I'm traveling most of next week.  Anyone interested can try to find the book in the mean time and read ahead if they want.  The book does not have the chinese so maybe ctext.org should be referenced when we start.   The PDF and Notes were already mentioned above as resources.

 

I think maybe we should name each thread as:  "Mair - Wandering on the Way - Ch.1 - 1"  , and increment chapter and sub-section.

 

I'll start the first one, likely next friday or saturday  

[konkelz]

Wonderful.

[dawei]

 

Sorry for the neglect and delay... kickoff coming soon 

 

[konkelz]

Awesome. Anyway I can get notifications outside the forum for when it posts?

[dust]

If you want to be notified by email when a new topic is posted in 'Zhuangzi', you can go to 'Zhuangzi' and click 'Follow this forum' at the top (above 'Start New Topic').

 

Then you can go to 'My Settings' > 'Notification Preferences' and choose from a few options including email. I'm not sure how to use 'Push Notifications', but apparently you can use an app on your phone or something..?

Edited June 8, 2016 by dustybeijing

[Rara]

Hello,

 

I'm wondering how well the chapters in Wandering on the Way (translated by Victor H. Mair) correlate with the translations of Zhuangzi used here. 

 

Also, in the conclusion of the first part of the translator's introduction, Mair says that Master Chuang's book should foremost be approached as a literary monument of ancient China and not a philosophical document, which is a problem in his view. 

 

"The Chuang Tzu is, first and foremost, a literary text and consequently should not be subjected to excessive philosophical analysis... This is by no means to say that the Chuang Tzu is devoid of importance for the history of Chinese philosophy... Because of the heterogeneous nature of the text, it is extremely difficult, if not altogether impossible, to determine a system of thought to which Chuang Chou subscribed."

 

It seems that this forum approaches it as a philosophical document. Thoughts?

 

I think this is a great point. Approaching it as a literary document is the easiest approach because then, it is what it is - a group of fascinating, quirky stories. Also, due to the many translations and interpretations, approaching this text from a philosophical angle leads to difference in opinions and therefore, if taken too literally, can lead to schisms in Taoist practice - just like you'd find in all world religions (and a lot in the Dao Bums forum!)

 

I tried to analyse and make sense of it all then gave up. In my original translation by Martin Palmer, he said that it shouldn't be either, and that Chuang Tzu is up there laughing over those that do, figuratively speaking.

[Daeluin]

I find it awkward to categorize things like Zhunagzi and Laozi. A categoriztion, to me, indicates we know the intention behind the voice, yet these works are widely recognized as elusive and mysterious. To me, they point to emptiness. The more one follows where they lead, the more one is able to comprehend what is not easily comprehended.

 

I do not feel Zhuangzi is a philosophy any more than is taking a walk in the woods, and yet both may wander along common themes and lead one to a more balanced awareness of harmony.

 

Personally I have found Brook Ziporyn's translation to evoke a clarity that leads me much more quickly to illumination than some of the older translations. So far I have also only taken the time to explore the inner chapters, as many of the others feel rather different in transmission. Such is the way with woods, I suppose, and it is lovely. It would probably do me good to explore some from Mair's perspective.

 

I don't know if we've had any ideas about how to begin, but one idea is to re-use the old threads, but maybe sticky the ones we are actively talking about over a given length of time. Something like a chapter a month? Each chapter has multiple sections, so that might help in exploring various melodies within each movement.

[Marblehead]

To me, they point to emptiness.

 

Hehehe.

 

I so much don't like the usage of "emptiness" when talking about Daoist Philosophy.

 

I think a more accurate concept would be having no fixed position but remaining open to consider all possible perspectives.

[Daeluin]

Who is talking philosophy? Emptiness is where jing, qi and shen emerge from. It is a very tangible concept that many here work toward cultivation of.

 

"May I ask what the fasting of the mind is?"

 

Confucius said, "Make make your mind one. Don’t listen with your ears, listen with your mind. No, don’t listen with your mind, but listen with your spirit. Listening stops with the ears, the mind stops with recognition, but spirit is empty and waits on all things. The Way gathers in emptiness alone. Emptiness is the fasting of the Mind”

 

from Zhuangzi, chapter 4, tl Burton Watson.

 

 

 

This is something at the heart of alchemical and medical texts. Treating it as only a philosophical concept, one may as well pretend that energy does not exist. If that were the case, why are there such elaborate discussions on it, people who speak of their experiences cultivating it, people who heal others through its manipulation, and so on?

 

Essence (jing), Breath (qi), and Spirit (shen) affect one another. When they follow the course, they form the human being; when they invert the course, they generate the Elixir.

 

What is the meaning of "following the course" (shun)? "The One generates the Two, the Two generate the Three, the Three generate the ten thousand things." (daodejing 42) Therefore Emptiness transmutes itself into Spirit, Spirit transmutes itself into Breath, and Breath transmutes itself into Essence, Essence transmutes itself into form, and form becomes the human being.

 

What is the meaning of "inverting the course" (ni)? The ten thousand things hold the Three, the Three return to the Two, the Two return to the One. Those who know this Way look after their Spirit and guard their corporeal form. They nourish the corporeal form to refine the Essence, accumulate the Essence to transmute it into Breath, refine the Breath to merge it with Spirit, and refine the Spirit to revert to Emptiness. Then the Golden Elixir is achieved.

 

Chen Zhixu (1290-ca. 1368), Jindao dayao, tl by Fabrizio Pregadio in his translation of Wang Mu's Foundations of Internal Alchemy.

 

It is said that emptiness is found in the center that has no location, so having no fixed position but remaining open to consider all possible perspectives is related the cultivation of emptiness, certainly.

[Marblehead]

Okay, but still ...

[blue eyed snake]

I like the different ways people get insights from texts like these.

different perspectives of it can make my way of reading/understanding it broader.

 

It might serve to take me out of my own fixed mindset

Edited June 26, 2016 by blue eyed snake

[Rara]

My trouble is that I'm easily influenced. Reading Zhuangzi makes me wanna go out and mock everything in the world

[Daeluin]

My trouble is that I'm easily influenced. Reading Zhuangzi makes me wanna go out and mock everything in the world

 

Oh that made me chuckle, thank you. I feel the same way sometimes. 'Tis one thing to be responsible for one's self. 'Tis another this absurd expectation that we are somehow responsible for sustaining the unsustainable and wildly tumbling machinations of our society's more elaborate needs ambitions.

[Geof Nanto]

I find it awkward to categorize things like Zhunagzi and Laozi. A categoriztion, to me, indicates we know the intention behind the voice, yet these works are widely recognized as elusive and mysterious. To me, they point to emptiness. The more one follows where they lead, the more one is able to comprehend what is not easily comprehended.

 

I do not feel Zhuangzi is a philosophy any more than is taking a walk in the woods, and yet both may wander along common themes and lead one to a more balanced awareness of harmony.

 

Personally I have found Brook Ziporyn's translation to evoke a clarity that leads me much more quickly to illumination than some of the older translations. So far I have also only taken the time to explore the inner chapters, as many of the others feel rather different in transmission. Such is the way with woods, I suppose, and it is lovely. It would probably do me good to explore some from Mair's perspective.

 

I also very much like Ziporyn's translation. I've found it helpful to read a variety of translations / interpretations. They all have their strengths and weaknesses.  

 

I recently came across this pleasingly lucid exploration of the Zhuangzi, based predominantly on Ziporyn's translation. 

 

ALL IS WELL IN THE GREAT MESS: An Adaptation of the Inner Chapters of the Zhuangzi with Reflections by Scott P Bradley

 

Here is a review written by Brook Ziporyn,,,,,,

 

Scott Bradley reads, lives and breathes the spirit of Zhuangzi with his blood—not to mention with his eyes and his ears as they open into the world, with his knowing consciousness as it plumbs and unravels both its other and itself, and with all the cells in his body: he reads the Zhuangzi as Zhuangzi tells us the Genuine Person breathes: from his heels.

 

A bystander can only sigh in gratitude to see that this is still possible, heartened that the pulse of Zhuangzi finds its channel in the world yet: in his many years sailing the watery part of the world—the Daoiest part of the Dao, according to some—led only by the radiance of drift and doubt, Bradley has floated his craft safely past both the Scylla of know-nothing New Age enthusiasm and the Charybdis of scholarly forestblind literalism, past both theomorphic piety and complacent humanism, producing a highly accessible, spirited and subtle interpretative rendering and evocation of the Zhuangzi which at the same time communicates the living spirit and the lifeblood of its argument with a rigor and attention to crucial nuances and distinctions which is heartbreakingly lacking in most works on the subject. Bradley’s work makes sense of the Zhuangzi, and rides that sense true and close, all the way out to the refreshing life-giving open sea of its sense-preserving senselessness.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Yueya

[Wu Ming Jen]

As I was reading these post I look down and next to the keyboard is Chuang Tzu inner chapters. first chapter 3 pages in proper way of government is a topic. On would need to be blind not to see Taoist philosophy in word format.

 

I am not sure of the OP point of what is and what is not. What is the issue?  I have learned that the people that have an issue with any "problem" are the creators of the problem.

[rene]

Never mind, found it. (-:

Edited September 18, 2016 by rene