The Horror of Taking Lives and Eating Meat

[宁]

and what if, the things we call greed, hunger, agression, passion, deceit and so on, are only functional designs of a greater organism.

we call them names, based on our own set of values.

but what if they are more than that, maybe even not really negative.

we call them negative because it doesn't make sense for the self.

but for the higher multiple-ecosystem-self, it has perfect sense.

 

what if all the buddhist description of suffering is only that... the observing of natural processes by a mind concerned about it's own survival: birth, poverty, illness, death...

 

if all of the above would be a taoist view

I think it could be more selfless and compassionate than buddhist view

 

 

does this make sense to anyone?

Edited November 10, 2007 by Little1

[Gerard]

So basically, "grounding" is dependent on the mind cultivating, not what they eat. Keep to wholesome views, and still mind and heart, and there will be no problem at all.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

Sorry if I disagree but grounding is dependent on Yin and Yang. Nothing to do with the mind.

 

If you are a cave dweller and meditating non-stop for three years then only live on "qi" and water due to their extreme Yin condition. However, if you are doing a lot of physical activity and/or living in society then eating meat/fish is not going to deter your spiritual progress as in this state you are more Yang and hence you would need more meat/fish and sexual activity.

 

It's all about balancing Yin & Yang according to our energetic requirements and own internal make-up following Shen Xiao (5 elements applied to Zodiac).

 

 

Remember that Siddharta Buddha died of eating either "mushroom delicacy or soft pork".

[Sahaj Nath]

Sorry if I disagree but grounding is dependent on Yin and Yang. Nothing to do with the mind.

 

If you are a cave dweller and meditating non-stop for three years then only live on "qi" and water due to their extreme Yin condition. However, if you are doing a lot of physical activity and/or living in society then eating meat/fish is not going to deter your spiritual progress as in this state you are more Yang and hence you would need more meat/fish and sexual activity.

 

It's all about balancing Yin & Yang according to our energetic requirements and own internal make-up following Shen Xiao (5 elements applied to Zodiac).

Remember that Siddharta Buddha died of eating either "mushroom delicacy or soft pork".

 

aren't your 'energetic requirements' primarily determined by your mind?

[steve]

 

When one realizes there is no separation, they come to a mind that wouldn't impose harm to another, especially eating them. Animals run and beg for their lives, they are not willing. Vegetables also scream when you harvest them, chop them up. Yet creating affinities with something more closer to the elements in a more purer form than an animal or human, would be better for cultivation.

Humans and animals develop toxins in the body, not good for cultivating a clear mind, healthy body. Vegetables though turn to waste in the body, help to clean out the wastes and toxins. It is just more healthier to eat veggies, makes the body and mind lighter and clears emotional attachments.

When I began to cultivate/meditate in earnest, I rapidly lost my taste for meat and alcohol. I still eat meat when the urge is there (rarely), or when my wife puts it in front of me... (more often than I would like... ) and I drink wine occasionally, but I'm much more sensitive to both. Meat seems to be dead rotting muscle to me now and is rarely appetizing. I get intoxicated much more easily now than I used to. I used to drink quite a bit... All of this is still a reflection of "my" illusion.

 

Animals run and scream from predators yet the predators still kill and eat them. People still struggle against death yet death is always there to greet them. It is a part of the way. Humans are descended of predators and carnivores/omnivores, is it not their way to eat meat? As we get closer to our nature, why would that not include playing the role of predator. I believe it's more related to conditioning than becoming closer to our nature.

 

I fully agree that our current parasitic existence is not "natural" yet eating only vegetables does not appear to be a natural state of humanity either. I also feel the natural tendency to shun meat as I continue to cultivate, yet, isn't cultivation a method to achieve our natural state? Isn't nature full of predator/prey relationships? Why would cultivation take us further from our predatory tendencies?

 

It's all quite interesting...

Edited November 10, 2007 by xuesheng

[Smile]

These days I eat a little bit of meat/fish a few days a week. With all the training, my body needs it.

[Sahaj Nath]

and what if, the things we call greed, hunger, agression, passion, deceit and so on, are only functional designs of a greater organism.

we call them names, based on our own set of values.

but what if they are more than that, maybe even not really negative.

we call them negative because it doesn't make sense for the self.

but for the higher multiple-ecosystem-self, it has perfect sense.

 

what if all the buddhist description of suffering is only that... the observing of natural processes by a mind concerned about it's own survival: birth, poverty, illness, death...

 

if all of the above would be a taoist view

I think it could be more selfless and compassionate than buddhist view

 

 

does this make sense to anyone?

 

 

it makes sense to me.

 

[steve]

and what if, the things we call greed, hunger, agression, passion, deceit and so on, are only functional designs of a greater organism.

we call them names, based on our own set of values.

but what if they are more than that, maybe even not really negative.

we call them negative because it doesn't make sense for the self.

but for the higher multiple-ecosystem-self, it has perfect sense.

 

what if all the buddhist description of suffering is only that... the observing of natural processes by a mind concerned about it's own survival: birth, poverty, illness, death...

 

if all of the above would be a taoist view

I think it could be more selfless and compassionate than buddhist view

 

 

does this make sense to anyone?

It makes alot of sense. Although, wouldn't compassion also fit in to the list of functional designs? It seems that it is simply our conditioning that leads us to assign labels like good, bad, desirable, undesirable....

[mantis]

i'm with agharta here in that humans do need to eat meat. i was a vegan for about a month maybe and it really isn't different from eating meat. in my opinion the reason most people feel more "energetic" and experience more "spiritual subtleties" is because it's like a fast for the body.

 

this is how it works for me

 

when a typical westerner goes for veganism or vegetarianism they are sometimes already overweight or where previously on a unhealthy diet. when you start eating more vegetables and nuts and legumes which use less energy to process, your body has more energy to detox and clean. people notice this and they say hey i feel great and stay vegans / vegetarians. however, i don't think this is the way to go.

 

it's just like fasting.

 

you do it for a little while to give your body some time to reverse the damage and then you adopt a healthy diet to maintain your bodies health.

[林愛偉]

It is quite simple actually.

 

Eating animals creates affinities with the animals. Eating vegetables creates affinities with the Earth's nourishing energy directly.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[宁]

I'm glad it makes sense

 

yes, compassion could be just another human label.

if you understand it as such based on religion and morality, that pretty relative.

but my teacher says compassion is not really a label, is a functional term, meaning a precise type of energy that is produced with certain method.

 

Lin, the energy of the plants is not the energy of the earth.

If it were, when we eat animals that eat plants, we wouldn't eat animal energy, we would eat plant energy.

Plant energy is specific refinement of earth energy, that has certain design.

It's design is more yin, like the plants are more static.

It has the same effect on the mind, making it more static.

If you want to get that, it's good, but only after you trained and studied and practiced a lot.

That means, after you used yang to grow up.

If you do it too soon... you need to move, and you may get stuck.

It's not just theory, is what happens with most of the plant-eaters I know.

Their mind is so static, not very receptive to new, and if they are, they accept it in their own terms.

They are... how can I best put it?! stubborn...

Interesting, the same thing I found years later when I studied Taoist Nutrition and the relation to Taoist Alchemy. They say don't rely entirely on plants, as plants will afect your judgement. And basically this is what happens, for good or for bad.

 

I am not with nor against veganism. I just say, when you do it, you have to have a SOLID background.

This means it's not beginning levels. At least not in Taoist Alchemy.

My teacher said if you want to have energy to transform the physical in non-physical, you need to eat well.

Later on, in a Huanshan mountain cave, who knows... sweet dew and fresh air...

 

Edited November 11, 2007 by Little1

[林愛偉]

I'm glad it makes sense

 

yes, compassion could be just another human label.

if you understand it as such based on religion and morality, that pretty relative.

but my teacher says compassion is not really a label, is a functional term, meaning a precise type of energy that is produced with certain method.

 

Lin, the energy of the plants is not the energy of the earth.

If it were, when we eat animals that eat plants, we wouldn't eat animal energy, we would eat plant energy.

Plant energy is specific refinement of earth energy, that has certain design.

It's design is more yin, like the plants are more static.

It has the same effect on the mind, making it more static.

If you want to get that, it's good, but only after you trained and studied and practiced a lot.

That means, after you used yang to grow up.

If you do it too soon... you need to move, and you may get stuck.

It's not just theory, is what happens with most of the plant-eaters I know.

Their mind is so static, not very receptive to new, and if they are, they accept it in their own terms.

They are stubborn.

Interesting, the same thing I found years later when I studied Taoist Nutrition and the relation to Taoist Alchemy. They say don't rely entirely on plants, as plants will afect your judgement.

Also Carlos Castaneda gives a fiew glimpses on that.

He says that the first ancient shamans of Mexico eat only plants.

And after a while "the plants' power took hold on them".

 

What could this mean

 

 

Its not like this at all. Eating animals that eat plants doesn't mean we are eating the plant energy as well. The energy of the plants have been integrated with the energy of the animal and its body. That means it is defiled, not pure. Eating flesh will only mean the one eating it has to use more energy to digest it, wasting anything it gets from the flesh to digest it.

Eating the plants, one wastes energy digesting, but that energy is not all wasting away. It is used from the food and the body, and since the food is purer than eating it through animals, it adds to the body. One can not eat the waste of another being just for the sake of getting the nutrients the waste has from the other beings.

Meaning, if we eat animals and can get the pure energy from the plans the animal has eaten, then one can eat human and or animal waste and only take out the nutrients from the waste. It won't happen.

 

Plants taking power over the human is only if the Human and the spirit of that plant have been working with unwholesome things, such as wishing others harm, the plant spirit helping to fulfill the person's desires. Shamans also worked with ghosts, demons and the spirit realm. Those practices aren't all safe. Just because they could do it didn't mean they were free from the consequences of the practice.

Working with spirits and ghosts, demons require one to pay back anything that was given to them by the spirits and demons, ghosts in the first place.

 

Basically, Plants will never possess anyone.. haha that must be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of. Possession only occurs if the person and the demon or ghost have the conditions for it. It just doesn't happen out of the blue.

 

Many people believe that the old Shamans worked "well" with ghosts, demons and spirits. That isn't always the case and it doesn't make for wholesome practice. If one simply cannot let go of eating meat, so be it, but eating vegetables doesn't lead to sickness like eating meat does. Besides, doing things that are not the norm usually get criticized more so than that of the norm.

There is too much misunderstanding on why it is better to eat veggies than meat, and so lots of excuses and intellect get put into it. It is very simple.

Veggies will make you lighter, and meat will make you heavier. Yin and Yang are in vegetables too, but attaching to the notion of yin and yang is ignorant. Whether one sees it now or later, eating the flesh of any living being is simply eating themselves.

 

Enjoy!

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

P.S.- Whichever way one chooses to live, that is only according to their own conditions. Changes are only made by the comfort in mind of the person. Sometimes it is good to do what makes us uncomfortable in our own cultivation...only when it involves not hurting another being.

[宁]

Hi Lin I edited my post as I consider it too harsh

Ancient and modern shamans don't consider plants to be so innocent

And yes, that was my point, we eat ourselves, not the individual, but the great-ecosystem.

And it does that because it's the easiest way to transform essence.

This magic principle... we used it very much, a long time ago.

I don't mind being called ignorant, I know I am. I just like to look at a problem from different angles.

Some may be convenient, some not.

It doesn't mean I belive everything I write here. I just look for a sense in all this.

I think I found some, together with the rest of the people that agreed with what I wrote

So please don't take it the wrong way, we are just enquirers (oh did I spell that right)

 

 

PS: I didn't say when we eat animal, we eat plant energy too. I said this would be true, if we follow the logic of your arguments. Because you say we eat earth energy when we eat plants. And plants feed on earth energy, no?

 

PPS: Indeed, plants are no innocent beings. The thought of all the plants used for healing and poisoning... And it is said that every plant we eat can be used for healing... but this is just a "good" way of looking at things.

 

PPPS: Everything can possess you. If you grow to depend on it. Including living beings. Plant give so much to the plant eaters. In time, they come to possess the plant eaters. How do I define possession? It gives you it's soul. Your soul becomes as the soul of the plant.

 

It's magical thinking, shamanic thinking... we just explore posibilities, that's it

[林愛偉]

Hi Lin I edited my post as I consider it too harsh

Ancient and modern shamans don't consider plants to be so innocent

And yes, that was my point, we eat ourselves, not the individual, but the great-ecosystem.

And it does that because it's the easiest way to transform essence.

This magic principle... we used it very much, a long time ago.

I don't mind being called ignorant, I know I am. I just like to look at a problem from different angles.

Some may be convenient, some not.

It doesn't mean I belive everything I write here. I just look for a sense in all this.

I think I found some, together with the rest of the people that agreed with what I wrote

So please don't take it the wrong way, we are just enquirers (oh did I spell that right)

PS: I didn't say when we eat animal, we eat plant energy too. I said this would be true, if we follow the logic of your arguments. Because you say we eat earth energy when we eat plants. And plants feed on earth energy, no?

 

PPS: Indeed, plants are no innocent beings. The thought of all the plants used for healing and poisoning... And it is said that every plant we eat can be used for healing... but this is just a "good" way of looking at things.

 

PPPS: Everything can possess you. If you grow to depend on it. Including living beings. Plant give so much to the plant eaters. In time, they come to possess the plant eaters. How do I define possession? It gives you it's soul. Your soul becomes as the soul of the plant.

 

It's magical thinking, shamanic thinking... we just explore posibilities, that's it

 

:-)

 

Its good to have very thorough discussions...no offense taken, and I didn't find it harsh at all.

Also, I do apologize if my posting made it sound as though I was calling you or any of us here ignorant. That was not my goal at all. We all hold to views here, and this place is a good and safe forum to share and discuss them. Peace.

 

I may have misread and understood your post. I thought you were stating that we could eat animals in order to get the plants they ate..lol

 

As for the ideas of possession, everything can, but not everything does. And not everything has the power to do so. Not all Shamans may have seen things clearly, and I am sure they had practices that weren't in their best interest in the long run. A plant may possess one, but that doesn't mean it may possess everyone who eats plants.

There are and were Shamans who sacrificed to ghosts and spirits, demons for powers and insights. They had close relations to them, but their conditions didn't make their practices wholesome. I too am exploring the possibilities Through the conditions I use to do that, I question every method of practice and cultivation presented, and do not take anyone with spiritual abilities to be an authority on anything.

 

There are many ideas in the world about the expression of the conditions of things ( what is usually called the nature of things). It takes alot of work cutting through it all to actually get some truth. This is why we must rely on our own logic and reasoning, our own common sense.

 

One's truth is another's falsity. When both have no more views of true and false, then ... Thus.

 

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[lino]

how wide is the definition of "sexual misconduct"?

 

BTW...for a vegetarian, you are maintaining a pretty hulkish figure

 

 

is spirulina and soy protein on the approved list?

[林愛偉]

how wide is the definition of "sexual misconduct"?

 

BTW...for a vegetarian, you are maintaining a pretty hulkish figure

is spirulina and soy protein on the approved list?

 

 

haha

 

I weigh 170 with a 33 waist, have a belly...lol. If anything its the gongfu and cultivation. But I am by no means muscular.

Spirulina... I haven't had that in yrs, and they don't have that in China. Soy protein...almost every week I have tofu...lol

 

 

Sexual misconduct can fall into many levels depending on how deep you want to go with it.

There is one basic level which is not having sex with anyone else but your wife/girlfriend. It can go further and be to not indulge in sex so often with one's significant other so as to not be overwhelmed by desire.

 

Then it can be taken to the next level, thoughts and emotions; with or without a significant other, one would cultivate refraining from thoughts of sexual indulgence, and let the emotions that arise from sexual stimulation to pass through , not to influence their mind.

After this, or before,...either way you put it, one would refrain from masturbation, looking at all forms of sexual visuals; movies pics, as well as looking at men or women and imagining their bodies, looking at men or women and developing the urges to have sex.

 

That is a lot in which it covers. But usually the lay cultivator, depending on how far they want to take it, just tries to stick with no sex with others while with someone already. One can choose how far they want to go, and ofcourse, based on that choice, they will attain as much as they put in. If they go further, they put down more.

 

Peace,

Lin

Edited November 11, 2007 by 林愛偉

[Pietro]

It is quite simple actually.

 

Eating animals creates affinities with the animals. Eating vegetables creates affinities with the Earth's nourishing energy directly.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

And eating Lins?

In some tribes (native american if I remember well) once one of them would die they would take its bones and make soup with it. Then the whole tribe would eat the soup, and they would say, my ancestors are inside me.

[林愛偉]

And eating Lins?

In some tribes (native american if I remember well) once one of them would die they would take its bones and make soup with it. Then the whole tribe would eat the soup, and they would say, my ancestors are inside me.

 

"Veta-Mita-Vegamin...And its so tasty too!"

 

hahaha Oh no...don't eat this body o'mine please..lol

Edited November 12, 2007 by 林愛偉

[Pietro]

Humans are not natural vegetarians. Our ancestors were all meat eaters, prior to there being organized societies that engaged in agriculture. They also had better teeth and general health, speaking broadly. If you don't believe it, take a look at Dr. Weston Price's book here. Just look at the pictures. All these traditional tribes were in much better health before the white man's food arrived. Not only that, the healthiest groups were the ones that ate plenty of organ meats and seafoods. The ones closest to vegetarian were the least-healthy.

 

I tried vegetarianism and veganism. They don't work. You need some meat and fish, etc. It's part of our heritage. If you don't believe it, read Dr. Price's book.

 

I'm not saying that, if the plants you eat are healthy enough, you can't be a healthy vegan or vegetarian. But...nobody is consistently growing plants of that quality, for the most part. You either have to have just the right soil, or you have to know what you are doing really well. It's much harder than any of the fools trying to be vegetarian or vegan realize.

 

Veganism is the real danger. If you can get raw dairy of sufficiently good quality, you really don't need meat or fish. However, the plants that the cow/goat/etc. is eating have to be of really super high quality. Few know how to grow such plants, as I have discovered in my years of studying these issues. Until you can get such plants consistently, best to eat some meat and/or fish on a regular basis. I speak from experience, folks.

We all speak from experience Agharta. Most of us have tried vegetarinanism for some times. Or, worse, had thir girlfriend being vegetarians, or *horror* vegan.

 

I agree with all you said, but I would add that goats and *vegetarians* animals, are not vegetarians at all. They have some 5 stomach, in which they culture bacteria. The bacteria digest the grass, and they digest the bacteria, which contains plenty of protein

[林愛偉]

That's something.. Veganism being a real danger. People are too occupied with caring for their bodies and making an oversight of everything else. THe body will die, it is impermanent. Use it well to cultivate. Be aware of things we are all a part of...all minds are the same. The body inwhich weexperience through is different, but still part of the mind.

 

Eating veggies is fine, and cultivation makes the body even better. THere are vegans who live up to 100+ yrs, some are monks some aren't. And monks eat the worst of foods in most temples, both Daoist and Buddhist. People may say they are unhealthy, but those people are holding too fast to the body.

 

Worrying about how many proteins and carbs and such really takes too much time and focs away from cultivating. Take care of the body, just enough to allow you to cultivate without extreme hindrances in all aspects, not just physical.

 

Literally, cultivating enhances the cells in the body, the whole physical structure. One doesn't need to eat if they are cultivating wholesome practices. The body will remain healthy.

 

BUT if your liestyle already includes watching all manners of your food, and you already have it down to a system fully understood, by all means work it all you like. Teach it to others, and make a system so as to allow others to cultivate it in a well amount of time. Our daily lives are filled with so much occupying the mind, eat wholesome, light and get to cultivating.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

P.S.- Please do take care of your bodies, you have this one, its hard to come by...cultivate it well, and waste no time. Yet, don't spend a great amount of your time caring for the body and spending little on cultivating the mind...cultivating wisdom. Wisdom of body is one thing, but overall non dual wisdom is another. ALl things have their benefits, and I simply do praise anyone who knows how much of something to eat and all the inner workings of food and so on. It isn't easy to master. Those who don't should follow something simple, and cultivate their butt off to change the body through cultivation, through one's mind.

None of you are wrong in working with what keeps your body fit. And still , there are certain things that just are the way they are.

 

Respects to all you nutritionists... my father is one as well. I eat minimally.

[Gerard]

aren't your 'energetic requirements' primarily determined by your mind?

 

 

Define me the mind, please?

 

What mind, where, when?

 

[steve]

It is quite simple actually.

 

Eating animals creates affinities with the animals. Eating vegetables creates affinities with the Earth's nourishing energy directly.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

Hmmm, aren't animals and vegetables equally of the earth? One is more mobile than the other. Respiratory function is different. Structure and physiology a bit different. The earth/ecosystem is the mother of all of her creatures. She designed the mobile creatures to eat one another as well as the immobile creatures. Again, if we are reflections of one reality, what is the difference which we eat? We're still all the same. I know there's a difference because I feel a difference but there shouldn't be if this is all illusion and we are one. I believe the difference is all based on conditioning, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Define me the mind, please?

 

What mind, where, when?

 

I'll define it - conditioning...

[林愛偉]

Hmmm, aren't animals and vegetables equally of the earth? One is more mobile than the other. Respiratory function is different. Structure and physiology a bit different. The earth/ecosystem is the mother of all of her creatures. She designed the mobile creatures to eat one another as well as the immobile creatures. Again, if we are reflections of one reality, what is the difference which we eat? We're still all the same. I know there's a difference because I feel a difference but there shouldn't be if this is all illusion and we are one. I believe the difference is all based on conditioning, nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

Though they are of the Earth, their energetic make up reacts differently in the body when eaten. an animal has emotions and attachments consciously and is that way because of its mental afflictions. Its body is formed due to that. We eat that, and we are putting such things in our own bodies...that's not good.

Plants are energetically cleaner, vibrant. They don't come with afflictions, unless the person preparing the meal is imposing their energy onto the plant. Plants also respond as any other living beings does, energetically, though karma is karma, eating plants cause one to have conditions with Earth and its elements, rather than with animals and their afflictions. Big difference.

Yet it is illusive, it also does influence the mind. When its not illusive and illusive, there would be no mind to influence, and still the wanting of eating flesh would disappear as well. It just does.

It is to stop hurting animals, stop creating afflictions of killing another living being making them and oneself always falling through the cycles of karmic retribution. The killing of plants is lighter than the killing of animals.

 

Peace,

Lin

[agharta]

And yet, despite all that, I'm much healthier and stronger now that I eat some raw animal foods instead of being a vegan. Not only that, Dr. Price noted that the mostly-vegetarian Kikuyu had 13 times as many cavities as the meat-eating Masai, who lived right next door to them, in Africa.

 

There's theory, and there's reality. When it comes to diet, I know which I'll listen to more, my friend.

[林愛偉]

And yet, despite all that, I'm much healthier and stronger now that I eat some raw animal foods instead of being a vegan. Not only that, Dr. Price noted that the mostly-vegetarian Kikuyu had 13 times as many cavities as the meat-eating Masai, who lived right next door to them, in Africa.

 

There's theory, and there's reality. When it comes to diet, I know which I'll listen to more, my friend.

 

 

 

As you see fit for your path. Both theory and reality are intertwined. Both are the same for they are both perceived and both subject to causes and conditions.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[林愛偉]

Causes and conditions of people's life experience vary. One may eat veggies and be fien their whole life, another may eat them and feel bad. I have seen it, and know people like this. It is basically not the food, but the person them self. Causes and conditions decide one's outcomes.

How one handles things is a sign of their mind, points to their conditions with their views of things. This is due to their attachments, karma and creates more. What I am saying is that people can do what they do according to their causes and conditions. If people can eat veggies only and have no problems, then vegan is good. But if some have problems, then they can't eat just veggies. This is according to their karma.

 

I grew up following Dr. Gary Null's nutritional teachings. His way of veganism is very healthy and complete.

 

Everything can do good and do bad. This is because of people's mind. There area tings that just result in not good outcomes later on. That is just the way it is. Despite all nutritional dogma on eating meat and what not, eating flesh of another living being is eating one's own flesh. Atleast eating vegetables will not implant much afflictions and toxins in the body and mind.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

P.S.- I never ate an animal, and sweated to release a scent of strawberries and fruits.