Aithrobates

Ghost immortality

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Why is it often considered evil, inferior, or simply not worth it ?

 

Do some of you know things about it ? Like different views different shcools have about it? Is becoming a ghost and unfortunate accident, or are there really people wanting to do this, practicing to reach this goal ? Etc...

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Why is it often considered evil, inferior, or simply not worth it ?

 

Do some of you know things about it ? Like different views different shcools have about it? Is becoming a ghost and unfortunate accident, or are there really people wanting to do this, practicing to reach this goal ? Etc...

 

We need to distinguish ghosts-gui and ghost-immortals (guixian). Ghosts are ghosts, nothing really to speak about )))

 

But ghost-immortal is a person who has achieved that by practice. By a wrong practice, obviously.

 

In Daoist schools it's considered to be not good, a wrong path, deviation, end of all hopes (underline what you like more): as Wells said, such person cannot reincarnate and is doomed to live in lower worlds forever until some saint being saves such an unlucky "immortal".

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Only Spiritual Immortals and Celestial Immortals are beyond reincarnation.

 

Even Earth Immortals and Human immortals are still stuck in the reincarnation cycle. 

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Yeah, but you obviously didn't understand what you read!

Read opendao's post above, then you know what's up.

 

According to your belief system...

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According to opendao's school's legit taoist alchemy system!

 

Well if he thinks ghost immortals are outside of reincarnation then his school isn't legit. 

 

All ghosts have to be led to the light. 

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Well if he thinks ghost immortals are outside of reincarnation then his school isn't legit. 

 

All ghosts have to be led to the light. 

 

Ghost immortal is not just a ghost. It's "worst". It has no chance to reincarnate. That's why it is so bad to become a guixian.

 

See Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji: 钟曰:“鬼仙者,五仙之下一也。阴中超脱,神象不明,鬼关无姓,三山无名。虽不轮,又难返蓬瀛。终无所归,止于投胎就舍而已。”

 
Obviously, Chinese text says clearly that Ghost Immortals are not in Samsara. It means they don't reincarnate. And next sentence confirm that: 止于投胎 - stop to be reborn. "That's all". So precise...
 
P.S. MooNiNite, was it you who thought that Dalai Lama is a Celestial Immortal? No offence, no, just asking...
Edited by opendao
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Ghost immortals are out of the reincarnation cycle.

If I believed in such things that would be a very logical statement.

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Ghost immortal is not just a ghost. It's "worst". It has no chance to reincarnate. That's why it is so bad to become a guixian.

 

See Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji: 钟曰:“鬼仙者,五仙之下一也。阴中超脱,神象不明,鬼关无姓,三山无名。虽不轮,又难返蓬瀛。终无所归,止于投胎就舍而已。”

 
Obviously, Chinese text says clearly that Ghost Immortals are not in Samsara. It means they don't reincarnate. And next sentence confirm that: 止于投胎 - stop to be reborn. "That's all". So precise...
 
P.S. MooNiNite, was it you who thought that Dalai Lama is a Celestial Immortal? No offence, no, just asking...

 

I disagree.

 

And no i did not say that. 

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I disagree.

 

no probs to disagree with Zhong Li and other immortals, esp in what such immortals speak about immortality. Sure you know better.

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Well if he thinks ghost immortals are outside of reincarnation then his school isn't legit. 

 

All ghosts have to be led to the light. 

That is a good hunch;).

 

To say that ghost immortals do not reincarnate is completely incorrect. They cant even read the basic Chinese they offer as evidence.

 

the phrase 终无所归,止于投胎就舍而已。means 

 

'In the end, having nowhere to go, the ghost immortals just enter a human embryo again to take abode there and that's it."

 

止 here stands not for stopping but for 'only/just'. This is my xmas present to these guys, god save their poor souls.

 

Eva Wong also translates this passage along these lines, (with minor mistakes)

 

 

 

"The Tao of Health, Longevity, and Immortality: The Teachings of Immortals Chung and Lu," translated by Eva Wong.

 

"Chung said:

'The ghost immortal is the lowest class of immortal. Ghost immortals are beings who have attained immortality in the realm of the dead. Their spirit is dim and they have neither name nor title. Although they are not forced to be reborn, they are not able to enter the Peng-lai lands of immortality. They wander about in limbo between the realms of the living and the dead, and their existence comes to an end if they chose to be reborn into the human realm.'

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So they are stuck in an immortal limbo unless they reenter the mortal cycle by choosing to be born again? And these spirits cannot be liberated?

 

(Experiential feedback is preferable to academic as the question is not merely from academic interest, if you follow me here...)

Edited by Brian

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Obviously, Chinese text says clearly that Ghost Immortals are not in Samsara. It means they don't reincarnate. And next sentence confirm that: 止于投胎 - stop to be reborn. "That's all". So precise...

 

 

That is a good hunch;).

 

To say that ghost immortals do not reincarnate is completely incorrect. They cant even read the basic Chinese they offer as evidence.

 

the phrase 终无所归,止于投胎就舍而已。means 

 

'In the end, having nowhere to go, the ghost immortals just enter a human embryo again to take abode there and that's it."

 

止 here stands not for stopping but for 'only/just'. This is my xmas present to these guys, god save their poor souls.

 

You're a real Santa, I knew it. Funny at least. But your translation is just wrong, same as Eva's.

 

I was avoiding a real translation, just pointed where to look for. I haven't translated 止 as "stopping", for "stopping" another character is used obviously. Based on your translation, you don't know it, and I really don't want to explain it to you...

 

Just full translation then:

 

终无所归,止于投胎就舍而已

Finishing without place to return, merely just stops to reborn, that's all.

 
You're clever, maybe with Eva you'll get one day what character is for "stop" in this phrase...

 

Btw, 投胎 is a Buddhist term, it means "reincarnation" and is not just literal "entering embryo".

 

I hope I return your gift back to you. Enjoy and don't forget to save your grumpy soul before pointing fingers to others.

 

P.S. another attempt, better then yours:

http://thedaobums.com/topic/6793-yin-spirit-yang-spirit-and-spirit-travel/

 

"From this place, there is no rebirth and one must abandon their self."

 

I don't agree, but at least 松永道 didn't loose the main message as you and Eva Wong...

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So they are stuck in an immortal limbo unless they reenter the mortal cycle by choosing to be born again?

 

No. If it would be so it wouldn't be so dangerous as expressed in texts and oral teachings. They have no choice, they are doomed to be in that "immortal limbo" (very precise, thx) forever.

 

And these spirits cannot be liberated?

 

As I told earlier, the only chance for them is some real immortal (not another ghost) who can save them somehow (I believe by forcing them into Samsara again, but I'm not sure - not really my business yet).

 

 

(Experiential feedback is preferable to academic as the question is not merely from academic interest, if you follow me here...)

 

You really believe in ghost immortals at TaoBums? )) Or saints writing here after saving another guixian? ))

Edited by opendao
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A much more worthy pursuit in analyzing and hunting down ghost and their immortality.

At least some conclusions can be reached , and other arguments demolished.

 

Where the right cannot be proven right and neither the wrongs be proven wrong.

 

Much better topic then  of asking what is the size shape and taste of the Tao or the De.

 

 

Idiotic Taoist inclined to dust off Ouija board and ask the spirits around to log into daobums and let them hear straight from the horses mouths.

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Tibetan traditions have a lot of stuff about evil spirit being saved by being explained the Dharma, and becoming proctectors of a teaching or lineage. It looks like the Buddhist version of a shaman taming a wild spirit, but it also IMO fits the save a guixin thing we're discussing here.

 

Apparently there's a passage in the Wu Zhen Pian, that I read quoted in a book (I only have the text for the Regulated Verses). It states that "Those who comprehend essence  and project yin soul are ghost imortals. [...] can enter and exit as will, still since their abode is not permanent they still have the affliction of abandonning a body and entering another. [...] one (earthly immoral) falls into having death, the other (ghost immortal) into having birth."

 

Half-educated guess but: I don't think it refers to reincarnation, as the guixian enters and leave bodies, and still seems to be the same guixian so it's not like it became a human or a cow. It looks likes it refers to possession. The ghost immortal not having a body of it's own is doomed to possess living human beings in order to to borrow one. So this "birth" is the taking of a body, here opposed to the death of the earthly immortals, to express the fact that none of them have a spirit body to carry on.

Edited by Aithrobates
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My understanding, and my concern, in those matters is that (and I may be totally wrong is that, I don't really know, that's why I ask questions) ghost immortals seem to be persons that have the trick to make the state you are into when out and about, out-of-body shamanic travels, a post mortem condition. And with all the new age fun about astral projections and lucid dreaming, I wonder how many people are cultivating that without knowing it...

 

Edit: And so the link to that other thread about spirit traval that I notice just now, because I was writing my posts when it arrived, is just in line with my interrogations. Thanks.

Edited by Aithrobates
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My understanding, and my concern, in those matters is that (and I may be totally wrong is that, I don't really know, that's why I ask questions) ghost immortals seem to be persons that have the trick to make the state you are into when out and about, out-of-obdy shamanic travels, a post mortem condition. And with all the new age fun about astral projections and lucid dreaming, I wonder how many people are cultivating that without knowing it...

 

Edit: And so the link to that other thread about spirit traval that I notice just now, because I was writing my posts when it arrived, is just in line with my interrogations. Thanks.

 

Right, people don't understand, ignorant new-age teachers, "translators" and "researchers" just promote techniques how to become a ghost, leave the body, go to "astral travelling" and become an easy victim for real ghost-immortals and other yin-beings, that can occupy the physical body while its owner is away... People look for enlightenment, but don't know anything about "other world", thinking it's just scary fairy tales of ancient teachers. As we see, the tradition (any true tradition, not only Dao) is against such techniques, and clearly inform people with open eyes about the danger.

 

The good thing that people are much weaker now then in ancient times, and not so many can really achieve ghost immortality or get any success in "astral travelling". Which is very good, in my opinion.

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In any tradition I've read about spirit travel is considered quite a tricky thing, and you need someone to guide and protect you to do this. Shamans have alliances with helper spirits, and human assistants (there are two Ren in the Wu character, right ?). Tibetan dream yoga needs Guru Yoga and asking for protection from the Dakini, etc...

Edited by Aithrobates
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