3bob

why the rigmarole if nothing gained or lost?

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In the end some say nothing is gained or lost, if so then why the all the nearly endless rigmarole to begin with?

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All of our worldly experiences from cradle to grave will be within the rule that energy and matter are neither created nor destroyed but merely change from one form to another.

 

Seems pretty awesome to me.

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Brian, that is a good alternate take that I was not considering when creating this string, which was more along the lines of states of being and consciousness, thus in the end a simple crystal to the mightiest God  neither gain nor lose anything which makes a difference to the final outcome....per what such a saying alludes to.

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In the end some say nothing is gained or lost, if so then why the all the nearly endless rigmarole to begin with?

This idea that nothing is gained or lost is often repeated because it is a very valuable teaching.  It keeps those people in check who think they need to acquire something from the outside: a new feeling, a new skill, a new philosophy.

 

But the teaching isn't wholly true.

 

We do gain something new.  We gain peace and contentment, and empathy and wisdom and, yes, even certain powers we didn't have before.  But these are secondary.  They come when the insight comes, and the insight is that we are already whole.

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When the cup is full it overflows. If you don't understand why then your cup is not yet full.

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Brian, that is a good alternate take that I was not considering when creating this string, which was more along the lines of states of being and consciousness, thus in the end a simple crystal to the mightiest God neither gain nor lose anything which makes a difference to the final outcome....per what such a saying alludes to.

What is the final outcome?

 

When is the final outcome?

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the final outcome is before the beginning...

 

Except there was no beginning.

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Karl, don't tell that to the first and the last comer...

 

It depends on your definition of beginning ? There was no 'beginning' for the universe and man is part of the universe.

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by the way below is a perfectly logical and fully reasoned summation on the matter...

 

"There is a beginning. There is no beginning of that beginning. There is no beginning of that no beginning of beginning. There is something. There is nothing. There is something before the beginning of something and nothing, and something before that. Suddenly there is something and nothing. But between something and nothing, I still don't really know which is something and which is nothing. Now, I've just said something, but I don't really know whether I've said anything or not." 

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Karl, Is that so?  I'd say the first and the last comer (aka the universe) do have a beginning (and end) in form - one just has to return to the formless to know of such.

Edited by 3bob

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by the way below is a perfectly logical and fully reasoned summation on the matter...

 

"There is a beginning. There is no beginning of that beginning. There is no beginning of that no beginning of beginning. There is something. There is nothing. There is something before the beginning of something and nothing, and something before that. Suddenly there is something and nothing. But between something and nothing, I still don't really know which is something and which is nothing. Now, I've just said something, but I don't really know whether I've said anything or not." 

 

Not unless 'beginning' is defined. There is a beginning and ending of a process. There is cause and effect. Ultimately there is neither end nor beginning just a continuation of causes and effects. We can talk about a stopped clock, but time itself does not cease because the clock is stopped.

 

So, it depends on meaning otherwise we are playing with ambiguity on the the word 'beginning, nothing and something' Shakespeare liked to do that.

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Nik,  I hear what you are saying as relative gain in relation to relative realms. Thanks for the feedback.

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is that so? I'd say the first and the last comer (aka the universe) do have a beginning in form - one just has to return to the formless to know of such.

You say first and last which is fine if it relates to temporal events within the universe, but not to the universe itself which has always been. We are just part of that existence. Our constituents are part of the universe now and for all time.

Edited by Karl

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You say first and last which is fine if it relates to temporal events within the universe, but not to the universe itself which has always been. We are just part of that existence. Our constituents are part of the universe now and for all time.

 

Nope, one has to return much further than that, keep going.

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Karl. when will one ever catch their own tail? 

 

Dogs and cats manage it all the time. I don't have a tail so I'm unlikely to catch mine.

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Nope, one has to return much further than that, keep going.

 

That's just a nonsensical statement. You are trying to be mysterious and deep, but my ears are closed to it. If you don't want to state your argument that's fine too.

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Nope, one has to return much further than that, keep going.

 

 

My guess at 3bob's enigmatic statement is that

 

a)  in order to remove the temporal nature of being, it is upon us.  We have the option of learning to stay in the Now, not to think in a temporal sense.  Not to buy into our personal background (which serves to bolster ego and keep us separate from each other).  To live with our minds in fear of tomorrow also serves to bolster ego, again separating us from life.

 

 In order to stay in the Now one must go deep within their own character so that there are no more buttons to push - so that one no longer needs to buy into arguments - so that one's mind is totally open and receptive to all, and to realize that everybody is on their own path whether they know it or not.  To accept people as they are, not as we think they should be.

 

In order to develop this point of perception, deep inner work must be done.

Edited by manitou
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Karl, most all of us have tails - in effect -  namely dualistically operating  minds

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According to the Indian traditions, ignorance is lost and freedom is gained. 

 

In the end some say nothing is gained or lost, if so then why the all the nearly endless rigmarole to begin with?

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I don't know. Don't know if there's an afterlife or anyone watching us or a cosmic score keeper.

 

I'm thinking it's all about the journey.  Making it matter to us.  Defining what is important.

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Karl, most all of us have tails - in effect -  namely dualistically operating  minds

 

I don't find there to be any duality. We can create the illusion that we do that's all.

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