Taoist Texts

Neidan vs Alchemy: The object vs The process

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Whats your point you are making with your quoted text in bold?

 

 
Dear Lao Zi Dao
 
thanks for asking: my point is that neidan does not work and to market is as something that works via belittling other methods that do work is dishonest.
 

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Dear Lao Zi Dao
 
thanks for asking: my point is that neidan does not work and to market is as something that works via belittling other methods that do work is dishonest.
 

 

Right. That is not what the text you quoted said anyway. But ill let you have it, it's your opinion, and your doubts are fair enough for you. But you are just closing yourself off from any opportunity, and that's your choice. Your choice to keep yourself isolated from Dao.

 

 

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Right. That is not what the text you quoted said anyway. But ill let you have it, it's your opinion, and your doubts are fair enough for you. But you are just closing yourself off from any opportunity, and that's your choice. Your choice to keep yourself isolated from Dao.

Thanks ;) luckily that is not the case. I do practice real dao in the form of internal alchemy and  i am very successful in it. 

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Thanks ;) luckily that is not the case. I do practice real dao in the form of internal alchemy and  i am very successful in it. 

 

"my point is that neidan does not work"

 

:blink:

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"my point is that neidan does not work"

 

:blink:

Yes, neidan does not. Alchemy does. There is a huge diff between the two. I will be glad to elaborate on that if anybody is interested and starts a new topic re that.

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"my point is that neidan does not work"

 

:blink:

 

usual troll comedy is becoming a tragedy  :D  :D

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Yes, neidan does not. Alchemy does. There is a huge diff between the two. I will be glad to elaborate on that if anybody is interested and starts a new topic re that.

 

In English you separate these 2 words, can you do it in Chinese?

 

 

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Yes, neidan does not. Alchemy does. There is a huge diff between the two. I will be glad to elaborate on that if anybody is interested and starts a new topic re that.

 

Great idea :)

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In English you separate these 2 words, can you do it in Chinese?

 

 

of course I can;) start a topic, lets find out ;)

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Dear Taoist text,

 

how you translate Nei Dan from Chinese to English if it is not Inner Alchemy?

 

Is your real Alchemy maybe Inner work as we find in Shang Qing Pai,Qing Wei Pai and Tian Shi Pai(all from Zheng Yi)?

 

All the best.

 

Ormus

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Dear Taoist text,

 

 

Ormus

Ormus certain ppl gonna be upset if we start offtoping here;), if u ever decide to start a new topic on this we can chat there.

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Here go you :)

 

I can change the title if something else is more appropriate

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Fangshu Xuanzhong Cuizuan (The Collected and Edited Hinges among the Dark Pivots for the Art of the Chamber, 989 AD) (Fangshu,hereafter). This is one of the texts for the "new" art of the bedchamber started to emerge during the Song dynasty, and is one of the text to have influenced the Ming sexual arts. It explains the purpose of the sexual techniques, which are specifically called neidan (the Inner Alchemy) in this text, by saying as follows: "it is because my body becomes the same object with heaven and earth, and obtain the true breath of the yang,which intersects and inducts within my body by ascending and descending.”

 

(Sex and Immortality: A Tentative Study on How Chinese Sexual Art Impressed upon the Idea to Become Better-Being in Religious Contexts. Sumio Umekawa, Department of History, School of Oriental and African Studies,University of London)

 

;)

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Neidan, or internal alchemy[1] (simplified Chinese內丹术traditional Chinese內丹術pinyinnèidān shù), is an array of esoteric doctrines and physical, mental, and spiritual practices that Taoist initiates use to prolong life and create an immortal spiritual body that would survive after death.[2] Also known as Jindan ("golden elixir")

 

 

What is neidan semantically? Literally it means internal elixir. I.e it is not a practice, it is an object. To say that "I practice neidan" is incorrect, since an object can not be practiced.

 

A pharmacologist does not practice aspirin, he produces aspirin. A carpenter does not practice a table, he practices carpentry to make a table.

 

Yet this incorrect word usage is universal both among scholars and the practitioners. Lets turn to the original texts to see what is practiced there if not neidan? For example in 钟吕传道集  a 24 page long medieval text neidan is mentioned 3 times

 

e.g. 身病、年病,所治之药而有二等:一曰内丹,次曰外丹。the body sickness, the age sickness is cured by two: neidan and waidan. Always as an object to be produced, never as a production process. So what exactly the neidanists do, to produce neidan? They manipulate bodily energies to produce neidan. How is this manipulation named? Curiously, this process does not have a specific Chinese name.

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To say that "I practice neidan" is incorrect, since an object can not be practiced.

 

The Chinese language isn't created in the same way that the English language was; it's of a different mindset and logic...it uses different words that have multiple meanings and combines them into something that closely approximates the meaning in some fashion. For instance, one way of saying "carpenter" in Chinese (according to Google) is a pairing of two words: mù + jiàng. Mu basically means wood, or tree. Jiang basically means master or craftsman. So there's not a direct translation, not a specialized term in Chinese, for a carpenter...they just have words which describe what it is, and that's the term used. Basically, the overall idea here is that Chinese language is a close approximation of a concept, and works in its own way in terms of rules for the language.

 

To say that it's wrong to call it "practicing neidan" or inner elixir...well, I would only believe that if you were a native Chinese sinologist. Instead it just appears like a foreigner applying English language ideas onto Chinese language. Furthermore, to separate neidan from internal alchemy just seems like confusion, because they are referring to the same thing...at least in Chinese internal alchemy.

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What is neidan semantically? Literally it means internal elixir. I.e it is not a practice, it is an object. To say that "I practice neidan" is incorrect, since an object can not be practiced.

 

I practice guitar on a daily basis. Guitar is an object. 

I practice the jian. Jian is an object.

I also practice meditation daily, while less obvious an example, there are many who recognize meditation as a state of being rather than an activity. 

In these examples, the verb (playing... the guitar, manipulating... the jian, sitting in... meditation) is implied. 

In my admittedly limited expertise in the Chinese language, this practice of assuming an implied verb exists to at least the same degree it does in English. Probably much more so given the relative ambiguity inherent in communication using logographic versus alphabetic language.

 

The primary error here, in my opinion, is to be too focused on the language and not focused enough on the practices.

Rather than discuss neidan vs internal alchemy, why not discuss the specific practices you are referring to?

Otherwise, I think one can waste a lot of time and energy debating concepts without ever understanding what the other party is referring to. 

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Fangshu Xuanzhong Cuizuan (The Collected and Edited Hinges among the Dark Pivots for the Art of the Chamber, 989 AD) (Fangshu,hereafter). This is one of the texts for the "new" art of the bedchamber started to emerge during the Song dynasty, and is one of the text to have influenced the Ming sexual arts. It explains the purpose of the sexual techniques, which are specifically called neidan (the Inner Alchemy) in this text, by saying as follows: "it is because my body becomes the same object with heaven and earth, and obtain the true breath of the yang,which intersects and inducts within my body by ascending and descending.”

 

(Sex and Immortality: A Tentative Study on How Chinese Sexual Art Impressed upon the Idea to Become Better-Being in Religious Contexts. Sumio Umekawa, Department of History, School of Oriental and African Studies,University of London)

 

;)

 

Now it makes sense -

 

 

jingwei lun SpM^^^,111 which states:

The primordial qi is the root of the spirit, the body is the home of the qi, the mind is the house of the spirit .... If the qi decreases, the spirit weakens

Actually the technique referred to in this section of the book concerns the ancient sexual art of huanjing bunao jH^fif SS) that is, "returning the sperm to fortify the brain." This is evident from the alternative title of this section: Liujing huiqi bunao ^^HI^Mfâj "Preserving the Seminal Essence and Returning the Qi in Order to Fortify the Brain." It further defines neidan as being formed of blood, spittle, secretions, seminal essence and qi of the brain ^-È-112 The same text exclaims:

Among the hundred techniques of the art of the chamber, none is so marvellous as that of returning the qi to fortify the brain

 

 

o.k. so that is from the Tang Dynasty - 818 AD.

 

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/asie_0766-1177_1989_num_5_1_947#

Edited by Innersoundqigong

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Actually the technique referred to in this section of the book concerns the ancient sexual art of huanjing bunao jH^fif SS) that is, "returning the sperm to fortify the brain." This is evident from the alternative title of this section: Liujing huiqi bunao ^^HI^Mfâj "Preserving the Seminal Essence and Returning the Qi in Order to Fortify the Brain." It further defines neidan as being formed of blood, spittle, secretions, seminal essence and qi of the brain ^-È-112 The same text exclaims:

Among the hundred techniques of the art of the chamber, none is so marvellous as that of returning the qi to fortify the brain

c. The Cyclical Elixir {huandan :Mft)

We have seen earlier that Laozi is said to have received instruction on inner and outer cyclical elixirs {neijwai huandan) from his saintly mother Yuanjun. The term huandan was originally the name of an elixir in alchemy.114 In inner alchemy, it has several meanings: huandan as a cyclical elixir, in which the compound huan (return) plus dan (cinnabar field, dantian) implies returning to the cinnabar field.115 A commentary on the £houyi cantong qi, one of the most important alchemical works, explains the phrase, "when metal returns to its original nature," thus:116

 

and

 

so the first documented used of Neidan as a term is in the Song dynasty!

 

 

The term most commonly used in early alchemical poems remains huandan117 5af}, and not neidan as we find in later alchemical texts.

Edited by Innersoundqigong

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I practice guitar on a daily basis. Guitar is an object. 

I practice the jian. Jian is an object.

Thats a good example of what i am getting at. The mode of speech that you have just employed is called ellipsis, an omission of words in a sentence for shortness while managing to get the meaning across. When you say 'I practice guitar' you really mean 'I practice strumming the strings to produce music on my guitar' with the underlined omitted. Now when you say 'i practice guitar' obviously you have the object, the guitar in your possession, your practice does not improve the object.

 

On the other hand when a neidanist says 'I practice neidan' with neidan being an object, a pill of eternal youth why would not he simply say 'i make the pill of eternal youth' if that is what he is doing? Its the same number of words so it can't be ellipsis.

 

 

The reason why he does not say that because if he does that he will beg the question 'Really? How nice. Have you made it already?'. So by saying 'i practice neidan' the neidanist is using a mode of speech called euphemism, which is an evasive language mode to cover his failure to make a neidan.

 

 

 

 

The primary error here, in my opinion, is to be too focused on the language and not focused enough on the practices.

 

  1. The Rectification of Names (Chinese: 正名; pinyin: Zhèngmíng; Wade–Giles: Cheng-ming) is the Confucian doctrine that to know and use the proper designations of things in the web of relationships that creates meaning, a community, and then behaving accordingly so as to ensure social harmony is The Good.

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Thats a good example of what i am getting at. The mode of speech that you have just employed is called ellipsis, an omission of words in a sentence for shortness while managing to get the meaning across. When you say 'I practice guitar' you really mean 'I practice strumming the strings to produce music on my guitar' with the underlined omitted. Now when you say 'i practice guitar' obviously you have the object, the guitar in your possession, your practice does not improve the object.

 

On the other hand when a neidanist says 'I practice neidan' with neidan being an object, a pill of eternal youth why would not he simply say 'i make the pill of eternal youth' if that is what he is doing? Its the same number of words so it can't be ellipsis.

I practice neidan is 3 words.

I make the pill of eternal youth is 7 words.

It is ellipsis.

 

I would also be cautious about applying English based linguistic and grammatical terminology to Chinese. I'm not sure that the transition is consistently applicable.

 

Edited to add - practicing internal alchemy does not improve the "pill of eternal youth" Furthermore, you also have the pill of eternal youth in your possession, you are simply unable to access it due to faulty perspective. Both in practicing the guitar and practicing neidan or internal alchemy, what is being improved is the "I", not the object. 

 

 

The reason why he does not say that because if he does that he will beg the question 'Really? How nice. Have you made it already?'. So by saying 'i practice neidan' the neidanist is using a mode of speech called euphemism, which is an evasive language mode to cover his failure to make a neidan.

 

How does this differ from saying I practice making the pill of eternal youth or I practice internal alchemy?

This would beg the question have you succeeded yet? 

 

Claiming I practice something does not necessarily cause me to want to hide the fact that I have not yet mastered or completed the practice.

I practice taijiquan. If asked if I have yet mastered the skill, I would have no problem simply answering the question.

 

I think you are being presumptuous in declaring that those who use the term neidan are doing so in order to be evasive.

I think it is more likely that they are simply making an alternative choice in the use of English translation of esoteric Chinese terminology.

 

 

 

  1. The Rectification of Names (Chinese: 正名; pinyin: Zhèngmíng; Wade–Giles: Cheng-ming) is the Confucian doctrine that to know and use the proper designations of things in the web of relationships that creates meaning, a community, and then behaving accordingly so as to ensure social harmony is The Good.

 

Rectification of names is a wonderful thing and in all the years I've participated in this forum I've seen no progress towards standardization of terminology. In fact, I have yet to see you define your own use of terms. My apologies if I've overlooked that. Consequently, I feel that getting bogged down in English translation of esoteric Chinese characters that most native Chinese cannot satisfactorily explain is not an effective use of our time. Discussing specific practices is more efficient and more in keeping with rectification of names than discussing the labels of heterogeneous classes of practices that defy standardization.

 

2nd edit - For what it's worth, I try to avoid the labels internal alchemy and neidan. I don't think they add anything to our understanding, communication, or development. 

Edited by steve

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Dear Taoist text,

 

how you translate Nei Dan from Chinese to English if it is not Inner Alchemy?

Neidan is best translated as elixir, which is an object.  Alchemy (the 'inner' is a redundant qualifier really) is the process intended to make that object.

 

 

Is your real Alchemy maybe Inner work as we find in Shang Qing Pai,Qing Wei Pai and Tian Shi Pai(all from Zheng Yi)?

Yes. Alchemy includes all of that and more.

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Yes, neidan does not. Alchemy does. There is a huge diff between the two. I will be glad to elaborate on that if anybody is interested and starts a new topic re that.

 

So your point is neidan is the object... the end goal...  and Alchemy is the process?

 

I play the piano is the object...

 

I push on the piano keys and produce sounds when linked together is the music I intended to make... the process.

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. Discussing specific practices is more efficient and more in keeping with rectification of names 

 

Yes now we are ready to proceed. The baker bakes bread. Baking involves taking flour water eggs mixing kneading putting into oven taking out when ready. Thats how a loaf of bread is made. How is the neidan pill made?

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