Requirement for Celibacy in Neigong Training

[Nerien]

You've all probably lost more energy upsetting yourselves over this than you would have by enjoying an good orgy...

 

A student is like a patient and a Master like a doctor. You have a state. Not everyone's state is the same. Hence everyone gets a different prescription. There's no one magic practice or pill or method. What works for one person will harm another. What works in one stage falls flat in the next. The form stays the same, but the feeling changes.

 

Don't fall in love with your medicine!

 

Hard and fast rules are for Novices.

Guidelines are for Adepts.

Masters are not bound by such things.

[Songtsan]

Its also possible that celibacy might need to be combined with others things, such as vegetarianism, or else certain foods may inflame certain passions through resonance with what you eat becoming part of yourself...Eat alot of beef, become bullish, eat alot of chicken, become peckish....I am going to experiment...I might even order a bunch of predator meats - cougar, alligator, etc...and eat only those meats for a while and see what happens to my persona, and have other people rate me. 

Edited May 25, 2015 by Songtsan

[voidisyinyang]

Everyone knows that saliva is a byproduct of the training - scientifically it's from increased parasympathetic nervous system energy. The cerebrospinal fluid increased from sublimation then flows out the nasal sinus cavity - I posted the new science on this.

 

Once again Western science is behind the times of the alchemy training - but investigation does corroborate the alchemy.

 

As for breathing through the heels - well I know from experience that the Immortal Breathing is based on the skin pulsating with strong qi energy - focused on the center of the feet and the center of the hands and the top of the head, etc. So it would make sense that the Yin Heel channel would then carry that qi energy up the legs.

 

As for diet and celibacy - indeed the qigong masters fast one day a week and Wang Liping just eats a small meal a day - before noon - and this is the preference of the qigong masters also. It depends how much energy you need to build up via how much you lost - but if you are celibate than you should be able to purify your energy, needing less actually food energy which is impure. If your third eye is fully open then you can recharge the energy very fast.

 

But yeah as the meditation deepens then fasting kicks in for purification - as the Bigu enables nutrition to be created from the conversion of qi energy. I did achieve this Bigu conversion also for a week - no hunger and much more energy - I went to work after 8 days of just a half glass of water in total. I felt awesome and I had telepathy.

 

The saliva is so strong at that point I called it a type of reverse electrolysis - when the qi is that strong it just creates water by combining the molecules, fusing with qi - and the water just flows out of the pineal gland and then out of the roof of the mouth. This is the ambrosia - it is very amazing. It's a LOT of water and so drinking water is next to not necessary. So the reason it is pre-natal jing energy is that it is created from the fusion of the yuan shen and yuan qi energy via the pineal gland connecting to the cosmic energy. So - in that stage of training the third eye continues to open up as long as you maintain celibacy and purification - but you have to really guard the energy. Again I didn't understand any of this as I had not studied enough.

 

But yeah - as far as diet and celibacy in general - what I do is I fast when I am around people who feed off my energy. By fasting - then my energy increases in frequency and so they have nothing to feed on - because they feed off the lower frequency energy. So that is how the qi is deconverted to yin jing and then to fluid - by the pervs, etc. So also keeping the tongue against the roof of the mouth but also flexing the anus to connect to lower magpie bridge. Not only does that prevent loss of energy from pervs but it sublimates the energy up the spine. Also then the food can create liver blockages which causes anger - the lower emotional cycle from anger-sex-fear - is what most people are stuck in. So I just fast and convert to a free energy system and that bypasses those lower emotional blockages - they can be exorcised much easier.

 

So - the food situation depends on the purification - as I quoted the texts stating - if you don't keep the tongue against the roof of the mouth then the food digested just gets turned into generative fluid and so it requires the Quick Fire method to sublimate that into yin jing energy and the Emptiness purification to sublimate the yin jing into yang jing or yin qi energy.

 

When I did the initial training I had been pretty much vegan for 15 years - and so also the main thing is if you are relying on yuan qi for your energy - instead of the post-natal food for jing energy - then it is a lot easier to build up your energy - to convert your yin jing False lower tan tien "sea of qi" below the lower tan tien into the Cavity of Spirit-Vitality - the actual lower tan tien behind the navel.

 

But then the real challenge is maintaining that purification process and that is where I did wrong as I did tantra instead since I had not studied Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality sufficiently. After I did my 8 day fast - which is the first level of serenity of Emptiness - I was never able to get back to a pure enough diet. The first thing I ate was some vegan greens tofu soup to break my fast but it had sea salt in it which tasted like pure poison. At the advanced level the food requirement is no salt. I'm pretty sure this is because the increased serotonin from the kundalini energy increases the ACTH which increases the potassium ions in the brain for the qi energy. This is how electric eels work. So salt, of course is high in sodium and chloride, a negative ion, while potassium is a more positive ion than sodium.  The parasympathetic vagus nerve also increases the potassium levels - so again salt would go against that energy build up. I just used BRAGGS sodium - which I probably shouldn't have in retrospect - since it's basically MSG - but the point is you can get sodium from vegetable sources sufficiently without needing salt.

 

Yeah so then since I lost so much energy from tantra - what happens is that causes the heart fire to be too strong and the yuan qi to be too weak - and it is the yuan qi that holds the yin qi down - to prevent it from going up the front channel and out of the eyes. Remember you want the energy to go down the front channel - for purification. But the lower frequencies around us can easily pull that heart fire out of the eyes. So then the only way to fix that is to replenish the yuan qi energy. So if you know these things ahead of time it can save you a lot of trouble. But if you are losing a lot of yin qi energy - from tantra - then the food offsets the loss of yuan qi to some extent. That is described as "knowledge" in the Taoist Yoga book - how much of your energy lost was from post-natal food compared to yuan qi. IN that case you are eating more "grounding" foods but it's gonna keep the frequency of your energy lower - it can increase your yin jing energy but to purify that into yin qi and even more so - yuan qi - requires building up the jing energy from the Emptiness meditation instead of just relying on food.

 

A good example of this are the Tibetan yogis who would eat meat to active tummo heat but then they are already in solitude meditation and so they have the right environment to rely on fasting purification to maintain the tummo. So the meat is kind of like a rocket booster that is kicked off to go into the free energy state. But that fasting to convert jing into qi energy requires total samadhi mind focus. This is why it it said Milarepa relied on eating stinging nettles when he wasn't in samadhi - so much so that his skin turned green. I relied on eating garlic to purify all the dumpster dived food I was scavenging and so my skin actually turned yellow from all the sulfur - I was eating 3 bulbs of garlic a day for a while. haha. But then I was also eating a lot of sugar and meat and then organic cilantro and parsley to offset the garlic.

 

so diet can be extreme - like the aghoris eating human flesh and shit. Tantra purification is a kind of catch-22. IN the end it would have to be abandoned.

[opendao]

Everyone knows that saliva is a byproduct of the training - scientifically it's from increased parasympathetic nervous system energy. The cerebrospinal fluid increased from sublimation then flows out the nasal sinus cavity - I posted the new science on this.

 

Once again Western science is behind the times of the alchemy training - but investigation does corroborate the alchemy.

 

Western science is in a trap of physical material dogma, I don't see any parallels with the Neidan experience. Cerebrospinal fluid is just a fluid, it's not yuan jing. And usual saliva is just a saliva, it can be a byproduct of the training in any qigong set, or we can chew something and get more saliva ))) Or just even think about something tasty...

 

Dao is sacred, saliva is profane.

 

As for breathing through the heels - well I know from experience that the Immortal Breathing is based on the skin pulsating with strong qi energy - focused on the center of the feet and the center of the hands and the top of the head, etc. So it would make sense that the Yin Heel channel would then carry that qi energy up the legs.

 

You describe a postheaven activation of leg channels... It's not Yin Heel activation, there are many other regular channels. And Yin Heel is the beginning, while "breathing by heels" comes after certain achievements in the practice, it needs special activation etc.

 

I wish it would be so easy as you describe, but then we would have thousands of saint people around, because many people can do such "skin pulsation", it can even lead to the "breath using skin", but it's still not the same...

[opendao]

Its also possible that celibacy might need to be combined with others things, such as vegetarianism, or else certain foods may inflame certain passions through resonance with what you eat becoming part of yourself...Eat alot of beef, become bullish, eat alot of chicken, become peckish....I am going to experiment...I might even order a bunch of predator meats - cougar, alligator, etc...and eat only those meats for a while and see what happens to my persona, and have other people rate me. 

 

we are what we eat 

[voidisyinyang]

I never said it was easy but it does require celibacy at minimum. Paypal may disagree. Btw ur founder is very clear in his huiming ching the end of leakage refers to no ejaculation. There's an image showing that in the book. It's copy blocked so people gotta go to the link i posted twice but then willful ignorance is also not helpful. Haha.

[opendao]

I never said it was easy but it does require celibacy at minimum. Paypal may disagree. Btw ur founder is very clear in his huiming ching the end of leakage refers to no ejaculation. There's an image showing that in the book. It's copy blocked so people gotta go to the link i posted twice but then willful ignorance is also not helpful. Haha.

 

wrong, think again. 

[Songtsan]

I think cerebrospinal fluid is the amrita...don't know about yuan jing...there is a medical condition which causes overproduction of CSF, and it drains out near the soft palate. It is said to taste sweet, just like the amrita...

[voidisyinyang]

...the poem emphasizes the practice of swallowing the Jade Dew (yuye 玉液; saliva), a central component of forming the elixir of immortality

(see Komjathy 2007, ch. 6). ...First, and most basic, the adept accumulates and gathers saliva, the ye‑fluids associated with Bodhidharma, in the mouth, the Jade Pond associated with Laozi. These fluids are then swallowed down to purify the heart and eventually commingle with original qi in the lower elixir field. In this respect, one may again reflect upon the symbolic meaning of Bodhidharma

and Laozi as one’s own physiology. Another possible reading is that original qi, associated with mercury and the figure of Bodhidharma, and original spirit, associated with lead and the figure of Laozi, become commingled in the adept’s upper elixir field.

 

Louis Komjathy, “Mapping the Daoist Body” 81- 82 / Journal of Daoist Studies 2 (2009)

 

 

...the perfect qi (zhenqi 真氣) rises up the Governing Vessel through the Three Gates, where it combines

with the Spirit Water, a symbolic name for the saliva, to descend back to the central regions of the body (Needham et al. 1983, 77‑78). Daoist cultivation methods increase the production of saliva, which is, in turn, swallowed and made to descend towards the lower elixir field. This involves dropping the tongue, represented in the Neijing tu as the Descending Bridge, from its normal position of touching the upper palate and drinking the Jade Dew. The saliva then passes through the “Twelve‑Storied Tower” and the “Palace of the Sweet Spring and Cold Peak,” both names for the trachea. 29 The Jade Dew descends through the Scarlet Palace (jianggong 絳宮) to cleanse the heart, before it splashes and expands in the Ocean of Qi (qihai 氣海).

Edited May 27, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[Aetherous]

I think cerebrospinal fluid is the amrita...don't know about yuan jing...there is a medical condition which causes overproduction of CSF, and it drains out near the soft palate. It is said to taste sweet, just like the amrita...

 

Perhaps it's not only CSF but other chemicals inside of the CSF too. Not like I know what I'm talking about, but just saying.

[voidisyinyang]

In the above passage, the Quanzhen adept is urged to circle the tongue around the inside of the mouth, so that the fluids are mixed before swallowing them. This was a central practice in early Quanzhen training regimes.

 

p. 144 Cultivating Perfection, Louis Komjathy

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=rnp-GwZAGVsC&q=saliva#v=snippet&q=saliva&f=false

 

 

With the orbs vigorous and harmonized, clear and pure saliva becomes produced in the mouth. From the mystical cranial locations in the head, these alchemically-transformed body fluids descend like white snow. They descend through the heart region, eventually becoming stored and mixed with qi in the lower elixir field.

 

p. 198, Komjathy

 

 

That is producing, conserving, circulating and storing perfect qi and clear fluids, specifically the clear saliva activated during alchemical training, formed the essence of alchemical transformation.

 

p. 203

 

 

 

As will become clear in the pages which follow, the practice of swallowing saliva was central in early Quanzhen. This alchemical practice, however, involved much more than swallowing ordinary spittle and assuming something efficacious happened magically. Instead, such fluids were the results of and a sign of successful alchemical praxis and an ingredient in the formation of the elixir of immortality.

 

p. 204

 

 

When the ye-fluids of the heart descend and the qi of the kidneys ascend to reach the spleen, [Yellow Court] the original qi will be vigorous and will not be dispersed. Then the elixir assembles.

 

p. 204

 

Yeah there's more details in the book.

[Taoist Texts]

Taoists have always had their own reasons for preferring celibacy, even prior to significant Buddhist influence. These reasons were primarily physiological rather than ethical, and their continued importance is well reflected in the Shangqing texts.

 

A passage in Zhengao 10/23b–24a states, "If a Taoist adept seeks to become an immortal, he must not copulate with women. Each time you copulate, you nullify a full year's medicinal strength. If you ingest nothing and engage in bedroom activities, you will lose thirty years off your life span."

 

....

.

Found in Zhengao 10/18b–19a is "The Oral Lesson of Feng Yanshou, the Perfected Man of Supreme Purity." There it is stated that adepts must "pacify their heartsand nurture their spirits, practice dietetics and cure their diseases, make the Palace of the Brain full and abundant, and not use up their primal jing."

 

It then warns against depleting the body's vitality through sexual intercourse and ejaculation, and speaks of how sexual intercourse nullifies one's "medicinal strength.

 

"If a person who studies [the perpetuation of] life copulates once, he will nullify a single year's medicinal strength. If he copulates twice, he will nullify two year's medicinal strength. If he exceeds three copulations, the medicine that he nullifies [will be so much that it will be] all gone from the body.It also states that sexual intercourse is so detrimental to the pursuit of immortality that it can even cause "those who have been mysteriously selected (lit., "pulled out"), whose names have been written in gold upon the Jade Registers in the Great Ultimate," 25 to be susceptible to "nonlife"

(Zhengao 10/18b–19a).26 T

 

his probably means that even those predestined to immortality by virtue of their heredity and past merits can fall victim to death as a result of the evils of sexual activity.

 

"The Oral Lesson of the Female Immortal, the wife of Liu Gang" (Zhengao 10/25a– says flatly, "Those who seek immortality must not associate with women." This injunction is particularly important on the ninth day of the third month, the second day of the sixth month, the sixth day of the ninth month, and the third day of the twelfth month. On these days, adepts are told to remain in their rooms and make sure not to look at women. The explanation for this is as follows:

 

If the Six Corpses (the Three Corpses of the adept himself and of the woman that he looks at?) cause chaos, the blood in your viscera will be disturbed and aroused, your three hun souls will be unguarded, your spirit will weaken and your qi will leave. All of these [factors] will accumulate, and bring about death. ....My predecessor and teacher became an Immortal by simply practicing this method. The [proscription] does not apply to [your] closest of relatives to whom you have no thoughts [of sexual attraction]. (Zhengao 10/25a–

 

While some of the details in the previous explanation are hard to comprehend, the gist is that the demonic forces in the bodies of men and women lust and mingle with each other, regardless of the conscious intentions of those they inhabit.

 

(Asceticism In Early Taoist Religion Stephen Eskildsen STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK PRESS)

 

 

The Shangqing School (Chinese:上清) or Supreme Clarity is a Daoist movement that began during the aristocracy of the Western Jin dynasty. Shangqing can be translated as either 'Supreme Clarity' or 'Highest Clarity.' The first leader of the school was a woman,Wei Huacun (251-334).

 

According to her Shangqing hagiographers, her devotion to Daoist cultivation so impressed a number of immortals that she received revelations from them 31 volumes of Daoist scriptures which would become the foundation of Shangqing Daoism. Later, Tao Hongjing (Chinese: 陶弘景) (456－536) structured the theory and practice and compiled the canon. He greatly contributed to the development of the school that took place near the end of the 5th century. The mountain near Nanjing where Tao Hongjing had his retreat, Maoshan (茅山), today remains the principal seat of the school.

Shangqing practice values meditation techniques of visualization and breathing, as well as physical exercises, as opposed to the use of alchemy and talismans. The recitation of the sacred canon plays an equally important role. The practice was essentially individualistic, contrary to the collective practices in the Celestial Master school or in the Lingbao School. Recruiting from high social classes, during the Tang Dynasty, Shangqing was the dominant school of Daoism, and its influence is found in literature of the time period. 

[opendao]

As will become clear in the pages which follow, the practice of swallowing saliva was central in early Quanzhen. This alchemical practice, however, involved much more than swallowing ordinary spittle and assuming something efficacious happened magically. Instead, such fluids were the results of and a sign of successful alchemical praxis and an ingredient in the formation of the elixir of immortality.

p. 204

 

thanks to confirm by your quotes, that "saliva" in neidan texts is 1) an allegory 2) not an ordinary saliva.

 

I totally agree with that.

 

 

Shangqing practice values meditation techniques of visualization and breathing, as well as physical exercises, as opposed to the use of alchemy and talismans.

 

About Shangqing: For me they are

 

1) too religious in a bad sense of this word

2) I've never heard about any serious results that can be compared with other schools

3) it seems they've never had ancient Dao methods.

 

So basically it was just new-age without any reliable knowledge transmission. In the modern time, again, nothing interesting. So their views on celibacy can be absolutely irrelevant to the practice of Dao.

 

Also, about sources. You guys quote modern translators, one of them doesn't practice at all, second practices some modern dazuo and daoyin. It doesn't prove anything, but it's something important. If we speak about Neidan practice, let's take into consideration, first of all, masters who have results, and who learnt from other masters, known by their achievements. Because even Shangqing has a lot of texts, and I doubt somebody in the English world has ever researched their value from _practical_ point of view.

[voidisyinyang]

So that's another logical fallacy - confusing the map with the territory aka killing the messenger.

 

Here's the logical fallacies that consistently show up.

 

1) appeal to a secret authority (in this case secret masters with no evidence of efficacy).

 

2) contradictions between principles and methods

 

3) ad hominems when the above are pointed out.

 

4) using semantics (insert proper fetishized term here) instead of actual meaning - out of context - (proven in the case of celibacy, saliva, and even the lower magpie bridge - the claim that farting causes loss of energy). This means quoting half-sentences and lying about the rest - as was done by ClosedDao above regarding my statement about saliva. He quoted a phrase of my sentence and then lied about what the meaning was. I have now disproven his lie and proven what I originally stated!

 

5) confusing an author of a text with the actual principles pointed out in the text. (For example consider sports training - lots of coaches have had experiences in the past but that doesn't mean they continue to maintain the same skill level). The texts questioned are based on ancient principles that are actually trans-cultural going back to the origins of humanity!

 

6) Willful ignorance - refusing to investigate and provide any evidence on your own, sitting like a spoiled boy at the Mall crying to your mom that you're never getting what you want to consume - essentially turning the process into a commodity fetish. I call this "Mall Science" - it's the typical method of the skeptics who need to have a replicated, standardized commodity as science. That need actually kills the requirements for real training since it's based on nonlinear quantum infinite complementary opposites!

 

7) Anachronisms - trying to say that something happening later in time was then the cause of something earlier in time. This is a variation of the logical fallacy of claiming that just because something happened earlier in time it is the cause of something later in time. (so in the above case it is claimed that an early Taoist practice was "New-Ageism.") Hilarious!

 

8) A Negative advertising campaign (instead of trying to prove your product is the best, you just attack everyone else's or strategically, inversely, flatter the possible customers, and then the implication is de facto you are the real thing). Hilarious!

 

All that stuff are distractions that cover-up an agenda.

 

I've seen this agenda before - for example the U of MN had a committee of professors and administrators - about to approve a contract for monitoring of working conditions for the sports clothing - the monitoring was to be done by a firm created and supervised by NIKE, the source of the problem.

 

So I distributed 400 pages of documents showing why this is a problem and how an independent monitoring system could be set up.

 

Now consider - I did this as an independent volunteer - just like I am posting on this forum. Of course I did have past experience doing independent activism at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and so I was relying on my contacts there to forward me information.

 

Unlike NIKE - I wasn't trying to sell something and then claim I was monitoring the conditions it was made in.

 

This is a similar situation here. The constant distractions and denials about the actual real methods of qigong training (insert proper fancy term here) are a huge waste of energy.

 

So at the University it took me a year of nine meetings were I directly argued with the lawyer running the University along with the public relations administrators.

 

They resorted to the same above logical fallacies that I've seen from ClosedDao - lies, distortions - anything to avoid the conflict of interest involved.

 

But after a year - I finally said I'm going on an unlimited hunger strike.

 

See I had my secret backup plan - the qigong training I did to finish my master's degree.

 

So I knew I could go on hunger strike while also not losing energy.

 

The President of the University emailed me urging me not to go on hunger strike and soon after he signed in for the University to join the Workers Rights Consortium.

 

So I wasn't acting alone obviously - other students helped me - but I started the initiative at the University and then I let the other students move into the leadership positions.

 

The point being is that people are irrational - logical debate is very superficial - it is a left-brain dominant activity.

 

Qigong training deals with the subconscious.

 

In the end we get out the actual real information for the real training.

 

And keep in mind again - that this information is provided based on my actual experiences. haha.

 

Now one of the ad hominems was that I have stayed on thetaobums for too long.

 

Yes - I have seen several different businesses selling their wares here - come and go - as fetishized trends.

 

There's no need to go into details - but I will say that in each case they were more interested in selling their product than they were interested in providing detailed analysis of issues and questions related to the training.

 

So then when each different business appears over the years - advertising themselves on thetaobums - that is just fodder for me to learn more - of course it has to be done "against the grain" as the conflict of interest of profit precludes the free sharing of information.

 

So as a case example, I focused before on the issue of celibacy. Now keep in mind the new business has fetishized the term Neidan - so that there has to be "real" neidan while anyone using the term qigong is fake, etc. And so then this is applied to any of the terms used for the training - since real celibacy can not be marketed then it has to be twisted around. So the "End of Leakage" obviously does not refer to actual real celibacy as a requirement (even though it obviously does). And constant reference to the Genital Gate must actually mean castration! Or any ancient Taoist school requiring celibacy obviously was New Age! haha.

 

O.K. so I covered the evidence for real celibacy as a requirement. Now let's cover the issue of saliva - which is actually created from the sublimated semen being purified and ionized by the pineal gland.

 

The semen high in lecithin and serotonin from the internal vagus nerve bliss has been documented to be in the cerebrospinal fluid - and so activation of the vagus nerve has been documented by science to increase serotonin levels in the cerebrospinal fluid. The internal orgasm is through continued vagus nerve activation.

 

Meanwhile male ejaculation triggers the switch from dopamine (violence and lust) into cortisol as stress - a switch from the parasympathetic nervous system to the sympathetic nervous system.

 

So if the parasympathetic vagus nerve energy is built up this ionization enables increased serotonin in the brain which then increases ACTH levels of the pituitary which then increases the potassium ions as a positive ion or yang qi energy, just as an electric eel works. Of course real alchemy works on what science documents as quantum resonance - superconducting protons from the quasi-crystal state of water - this is "cold fusion" in action. The ultrasound resonates the microtubules of the brain - and this causes water with the collagen of the brain to have acoustic cavitation as sonofusion - mini black holes that turn into white holes for real increase of alchemical energy. That level of energy through proton superconducting resonance is actually non-local entanglement which means it bends spacetime as the Emptiness of the universe - so that precognition is enabled, etc.

 

So that is what creates the unified Yuan Shen and Yuan Qi in the brain which then increases the water levels as alchemical ambrosia - saliva that flows down the roof of the mouth from the tongue being connected to the roof of the mouth.

 

In other words, as I've documented not only is saliva not an allegory (and obviously the actual saliva is not the same as normal saliva but there are stages in the training). Yes increased saliva is from activation of the parasympathetic nervous system - but that is the first level of the training! It's like the practice of smiling - that also increases the parasympathetic nervous system - as does reverse breathing. So no one is saying that those things are real - it's just that reverse breathing advances into immortal breathing just as swallowing saliva advances into ambrosia or (instead whatever numerous fancy Chinese terms you want here).

Edited May 27, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[damdao]

p. 46, Wang Mu, Foundations of Internal Alchemy.

 

 

 

p. 11 Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality

 

I fail to see in what other way it can be interpreted. This is clearly a metaphor. What is Jade Emperor? Then, what is his saliva? Beside, it points out to the precelestial state that has no form, if it has no form, then it could not be saliva, which has a form. The same with semen and the proper time of reversing the energy.

 

Shangqing practice values meditation techniques of visualization and breathing, as well as physical exercises, as opposed to the use of alchemy and talismans. 

 

I think that it is impossible to prove that in neidan something is needed or not, taking into account a text from a school opposed to neidan.

 

 real training since it's based on nonlinear quantum infinite complementary opposites!

 

(...)

The point being is that people are irrational - logical debate is very superficial - it is a left-brain dominant activity.

(...)

Qigong training deals with the subconscious.

(...)

 saliva - which is actually created from the sublimated semen being purified and ionized by the pineal gland.

 

And it is supposed that we take this claims as an actual fact?!

[Songtsan]

Well I am convinced enough to take an extended shot at celibacy..at least two years...I will begin soon. As far as CSF, it contains many charged ions, nueropeptides, and good things...I believe that its overproduction produces the amrita. The person who eats of them self becomes immortal. Those who eat of the world, stay in this world, and lose/disperse themselves among it...you are still immortal here, just divided, and unconscious. I like my collective enough this lifetime to make the jump.

[opendao]

So that's another logical fallacy - confusing the map with the territory aka killing the messenger.

 

Here's the logical fallacies that consistently show up.

 

1) appeal to a secret authority (in this case secret masters with no evidence of efficacy).

 

2) contradictions between principles and methods

 

3) ad hominems when the above are pointed out.

 

4) using semantics (insert proper fetishized term here) instead of actual meaning - out of context - (proven in the case of celibacy, saliva, and even the lower magpie bridge - the claim that farting causes loss of energy). This means quoting half-sentences and lying about the rest - as was done by ClosedDao above regarding my statement about saliva. He quoted a phrase of my sentence and then lied about what the meaning was. I have now disproven his lie and proven what I originally stated!

 

again just farting and screams about "half sentences"... Annoying. I quoted the same part as he quoted, but because it's so obviously against his opinion, he starts blaming in lies... Funny, but nothing new.

 

Neidan is a practice, not a process of juggling words as many people mistakenly think. No results, nothing to speak of.

 

So if people see a "logical fallacy" in a desire to find (not in books, of course) authorities who practically know, well, maybe it's a good time to recall that Dao is illogical and cannot be understood by mind or from books.

 

Dao is NOT about swallowing, farting, ejaculation, eating, drinking, sweating.

NOT about physical exercises.

NOT about "sitting and forgetting".

NOT about everything we know or imagine by our consciousness or subconsciousness.

Dao is about something we cannot grasp, cannot see, cannot feel. It's before Heaven and Earth, before 10000 things has been born. It's not an emptiness, it's not a movement. It's sacred, concealed and secret.

See Lao Zi, this is a foundation.

 

All mistaken views will gone when people grasp the idea of Preheaven and Postheaven.

[Songtsan]

...of course Swami Muktananda was no celibate, although he pretended to be. He had as much Shakti as just about anyone I've heard of, Yan Xin, etc...

[opendao]

5) confusing an author of a text with the actual principles pointed out in the text. (For example consider sports training - lots of coaches have had experiences in the past but that doesn't mean they continue to maintain the same skill level). The texts questioned are based on ancient principles that are actually trans-cultural going back to the origins of humanity!

 

You're very mistaken here. Neidan is not even a sport. Your past experience can completely disappear without practice, and you will fall into illusions again if you don't have actual state now. If you've never practised Neidan, how you can write anything about it? It's naive and stupid.

 

"confusing an author of a text with the actual principles pointed out in the text" - it's a huge mistake to separate the personality of the author from what the author writes or translates. Every single piece of creation is a result of what the author has inside. Even if he copies/pastes ancient texts, his impurity and false views can lead to a pre-selective view, that's why we have so many ancient texts with mistakes, missed parts, chapters order broken etc. You've never really worked with the original texts, obviously.

 

6) Willful ignorance - refusing to investigate and provide any evidence on your own, sitting like a spoiled boy at the Mall crying to your mom that you're never getting what you want to consume - essentially turning the process into a commodity fetish. I call this "Mall Science" - it's the typical method of the skeptics who need to have a replicated, standardized commodity as science. That need actually kills the requirements for real training since it's based on nonlinear quantum infinite complementary opposites!

 

do you understand yourself what you've said? I'm telling about the complexity and difficulty of Neidan practice, you're about commodity and consumers. You're speaking about yourself? Maybe it's you, who has never opened any book in Chinese, is a spoiled consumer? "Give me a secret, greedy Daoist, because there are no secrets and I already know everything or even more", that's what you're trying to imply constantly as a crying baby.

 

7) Anachronisms - trying to say that something happening later in time was then the cause of something earlier in time. This is a variation of the logical fallacy of claiming that just because something happened earlier in time it is the cause of something later in time. (so in the above case it is claimed that an early Taoist practice was "New-Ageism.") Hilarious!

 

I know that you don't understand allegories... It was "new age" for that time, obviously, with similar principles and results.

 

8) A Negative advertising campaign (instead of trying to prove your product is the best, you just attack everyone else's or strategically, inversely, flatter the possible customers, and then the implication is de facto you are the real thing). Hilarious!

 

you're repeating Taoist Texts so often, so I really think you're twins. 

 

The mistake here is that I don't need to promote anything, because Dao is not something ("product"), but it's an absence of anything the mind can stick to. So I, as many other people before, speak about what Dao is Not, first of all, because that's what triggers real changes in people. Obviously, you don't know the tradition, you know only the greedy world where you live.

 

Greedy people see only money and business affairs, but people who are looking for sacred, can see something more. For this they don't need a master degree, but just a soul looking for sacred. You're so long here, Innersound, but you see only what your soul can see. That's another reason I don't believe you: your practice brings no change in what you write. Sorry, it's so personal, and you will scream you favourite mantra "ad hominem-eminem" again, but you made so many personal insults towards myself and various Neidan schools, so I repeat: "The text cannot be separated from the author's spiritual level".

 

Going back to the topic, I think there are no more questions about celibacy. Pseudo-qigong can go to a cave and celibate (don't forget to finally stop farting and use Internet). Those who are interested in Dao, can compare various materials here and find a proper way, according to their internal intentions. It can be a monastic life, internal alchemy with celibacy or not, external alchemy or even pair cultivation. But you need to find a teacher and understand books under teacher's guidance. There is no short cuts, nor "shared open source" knowledge about Neidan practices, so I wish you luck not to fall into traps of illusions.

[Songtsan]

Those who hoard secrets that are valuable to man ARE greedy..IMO....snobs. They don't want their 'Heaven' polluted by immortals who are not like them...it can't last forever...one day, this knowledge will be out, and their gentrified neighborhood will be overrun by 'foreigners' with their 'foreign ways' and they will have to practice non-attachment all over again. Invite the rest of us in, you greedy 1%ers!

Edited May 27, 2015 by Songtsan

[Songtsan]

As above, so below. Hoarding knowledge is like hoarding money. Those immortals live off the backs of the oppressed. They will share our misery one day, and they know this. The tides will turn. The end of an age comes soon. Black will become white, wrong will become right, and the beggars will ride golden steeds.

[opendao]

Those who hoard secrets that are valuable to man ARE greedy..IMO....snobs. They don't want their 'Heaven' polluted by immortals who are not like them...it can't last forever...one day, this knowledge will be out, and their gentrified neighborhood will be overrun by 'foreigners' with their 'foreign ways' and they will have to practice non-attachment all over again. Invite the rest of us in, you greedy 1%ers!

 

the gates are open (and always have been), but people prefer to say they are not invited. Nobody can drag you to Heavens against your will, but nobody stops you from doing it by your efforts. I really don't understand such complains. Dao cannot be given to the humankind, it's just technically impossible. What can be written, is already written. The rest can be passed only through the personal encounter with immortals... It's not something that can be packed and sold in malls. That's why the name of our school is Yu Xian Pai: Meeting the Immortals. Without it nothing works. And never worked, in any school.

[opendao]

As above, so below. Hoarding knowledge is like hoarding money. Those immortals live off the backs of the oppressed. They will share our misery one day, and they know this. The tides will turn. The end of an age comes soon. Black will become white, wrong will become right, and the beggars will ride golden steeds.

 

we've heard it many times before last 10000 years ))) Wrong is still wrong, but right is more often confused with wrong. Our misery is the result of our deeds, and deeds of our ancestors, so it's better to think positive and start building our life by ourselves without waiting somebody will descend and help.

[thelerner]

Has this been covered in this thread?

 

What precursors/foundations should be done (if any) before a person tries a period of celibacy? 

 

Secondly, are there any particular lengths? 

Some traditions have 100 day requirement before moving on to another level.

[opendao]

Has this been covered in this thread?

 

What precursors/foundations should be done (if any) before a person tries a period of celibacy? 

 

Secondly, are there any particular lengths? 

Some traditions have 100 day requirement before moving on to another level.

 

it really depends on the school and goals. In Wu-Liu there is nothing like that at all, in Yu Xian Pai there are a lot of practices before 100 days, so they prepare extensively and without them it's just a useless torture for young people. If somebody wants (or needs because of the situation) to keep long-time celibacy, more then 2-3 months, then the main issue is the yin-yang balance, the spirit is under a big stress, and it's really hard to handle without proper knowledge and techniques. For healthy young people especially. When people are sick and old, such retention is natural and has its obvious benefits.  But basically it's better to ask your teacher, it is not something people suppose to do without a proper control, and it has to be an individual approach taking many factors into consideration  (age, gender, level of practice, yin-yang balance, season etc).