Seeing, Recognising & Maintaining One's Enlightening Potential

[Jonesboy]

Enjoying the posts.

 

Thank you.

[C T]

https://vimeo.com/128173959

[C T]

Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water.

The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. 

 

Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide.

The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water.

 

Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water.

 

You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky.

 

The depth of the drop is the height of the moon.

 

Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop,

and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.

 

Those who have great realization of delusion are buddhas; those who are greatly deluded

about realization are sentient beings.

 

~ Dogen Zenji

[C T]

It is said that the difference between buddhas and sentient beings is like the difference between the narrowness and the openness of space. Sentient beings are like the space held within a tightly closed fist, while buddhas are fully open, all-encompassing. Basic space and awareness are innately all-encompassing. Basic space is the absence of mental constructs, while awareness is the 'knowing' of this absence of constructs, recognizing the complete emptiness of mind essence. Space and awareness are inherently indivisible.

 

~ Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

[Spotless]

If you want to totally free yourself from suffering, it is important to distinguish what to do from what not to do since you cannot hope to taste the fruit of beneficial actions that you have not done, nor escape the consequences of your own harmful actions. *After death, you will follow the course traced by your actions, good and bad. Now that you have a choice between two paths, one that leads up and one that leads down, do not act in a way opposed to your deepest wishes. Practice all possible beneficial actions, even the smallest. Doesn't the accumulation of little drops end up filling a large jar?

 

 

~ Jetsun Mingyur Paldrön (1699-1769)

 

[ I called this BS and it is.

Either the translation is atrocious or it is what it is - good bad up down heaven hell - watch your step - this is Apple polishing and taking out an insurance policy. (Comment by Spotless) ]

 

 

 

 

This is also blather - and not true:

*after death, good intentions during life do not matter; only done deeds are carried forth into the bardo as deciding factors in determining direction and rebirth. Hence the emphasis on karma (action).

 

Do not take any of this personally - you did not write any of it and it seems the entire thread is just cut and paste - so why not consider the pasting carefully.

Edited August 6, 2015 by Spotless

[C T]

Do not take any of this personally - you did not write any of it and it seems the entire thread is just cut and paste - so why not consider the pasting carefully.

I do reflect on these teachings first, with the full awareness that there's always room for those who may sometimes disagree with what's been presented. The nature of these teachings are such that they are not immediately clear to everyone all the time. 

[rex]

Considering that this thread is in the Buddhist section I see no problem with posting excerpts from lineage holders presenting particular Buddhist perspectives. For me it's an informative reminder of things that I should beware of and often lose perspective on.

 

Edit: tpyo

Edited August 7, 2015 by rex

[Spotless]

Whether they hold lineage or not is not the point - many of the translations have been westernized and have lost their intent.

Often the translations were done by Christian monks who have added their bias - (duality).

 

Much of these teachings are completely misunderstood - as in the quoted pastings I referred to.

 

This cause and effect karma idea we westerners have and many easterners do as well is incorrect - this is not true as this misunderstanding would have us assess its teaching. This is the same belief system of reward and punishment as our Christian heritage. It has the same heaven and hell type implications - it is childish and incorrect - it is incorrect understanding and or incorrect translation.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Spotless

[C T]

Whether they hold lineage or not is not the point - many of the translations have been westernized and have lost their intent.

Often the translations were done by Christian monks who have added their bias - (duality).

 

Much of these teachings are completely misunderstood - as in the quoted pastings I referred to.

 

This cause and effect karma idea we westerners have and many easterners do as well is incorrect - this is not true as this misunderstanding would have us assess its teaching. This is the same belief system of reward and punishment as our Christian heritage. It has the same heaven and hell type implications - it is childish and incorrect - it is incorrect understanding and or incorrect translation.

It becomes a belief (and likely will be misunderstood) when not investigated/reflected against the light of personal experience. 

 

True Buddhists, those who take Buddha's advice to heart, never believe blindly, nor do they tell others to. If they do, then they cannot be true Buddhist practitioners. 

 

Buddhist karma emphasises personal action in addition to cause and effect. This means that no matter what sorrowful or regrettable actions one has performed in the past, or how unfortunate one's circumstances has been, with right thinking and right actions, the future can be corrected through realigning the mind. A trained mind tends to be more pliant, disciplined and resolute - necessary traits to help identify & break old habits. Once these old patterns are seen clearly, they can then be unknotted, and for as long as they remain unknotted, that particular karma is as good as never happened; having been vanquished, it will remain vanquished as long as the same old action (cause) is not reignited. Nothing is set in stone, and there is no higher power that keeps score of old deeds which have to be settled regardless. We make the choices and decide to act or re-act based on those choices we make. There is no divine puppeteer pulling our strings. 

 

One right move, going forward from wherever one finds oneself, guided by right intent, can completely dissolve years of negative karma, according to Buddhist teachings. Its like a chronic alcoholic waking up and deciding never to drink again. Of course some make it and some dont. But the possibility for reform is ever-present, regardless how many times one falls. This is the difference between authentic Buddhist teachings on karma and your assumption of what karma is. It is definitely not based on reward and punishment - more like personal accountability. 

 

Therefore you are correct in saying that many Westerners have an incorrect understanding of the concept of Buddhist karma. 

Edited August 7, 2015 by C T

[steve]

It becomes a belief (and likely will be misunderstood) when not investigated/reflected against the light of personal experience. 

 

That was an excellent post CT - in particular one can't emphasize enough the importance of putting the practices into play and observing the results. Just like in any experiential practice, the theory can be very misleading. 

 

Karma, for me, is best looked at as an experiential practice, not a theory. As I practice and see the results, the view grows from there. I once had one of those "core of your being" type experiences. I saw how every piece of my life, every action and relationship, fit together in this unbearably complex puzzle. I could see how every single, tiny choice and action interrelated with every other, and encompassed all of existence. Move anything the slightest bit and all is affected in some way, with the sensitivity and responsiveness of a spider's web. It was so intense I thought I might lose my mind. It only lasted a few moments (fortunately) but that glimpse helped me understand the meaning of karma, at least my limited perspective of it.  

 

Even some of the best sources in English that are very well written and translated (Patrul Rinpoche's The Words of My Perfect Teacher and The Life of Shabkar by Shabkar Tsogdruk Rangdrol come to mind) can give us the wrong impression about karma. They certainly can sound (and at some level ARE, from our samsaric, dualistic existence) very much like the fire and brimstone, reward and punishment story. The difference is really one of perspective - in the Judeo-Christian model (well, as far as I'm concerned it is a misunderstanding of said model) there is an external judge. In Buddhism, the judge is internal - the mind. 

 

It's not the model that is childish and incorrect, IMO; after all, the models are simply mythology - (they're meant to be childrens' tales and allegories, not political platforms or scientific theories) it is the understanding and application that is childish and incorrect. The model works in practice, when skillfully applied with the correct view. 

[Spotless]

It becomes a belief (and likely will be misunderstood) when not investigated/reflected against the light of personal experience.

 

True Buddhists, those who take Buddha's advice to heart, never believe blindly, nor do they tell others to. If they do, then they cannot be true Buddhist practitioners.

 

Buddhist karma emphasises personal action in addition to cause and effect. This means that no matter what sorrowful or regrettable actions one has performed in the past, or how unfortunate one's circumstances has been, with right thinking and right actions, the future can be corrected through realigning the mind. A trained mind tends to be more pliant, disciplined and resolute - necessary traits to help identify & break old habits. Once these old patterns are seen clearly, they can then be unknotted, and for as long as they remain unknotted, that particular karma is as good as never happened; having been vanquished, it will remain vanquished as long as the same old action (cause) is not reignited. Nothing is set in stone, and there is no higher power that keeps score of old deeds which have to be settled regardless. We make the choices and decide to act or re-act based on those choices we make. There is no divine puppeteer pulling our strings.

 

One right move, going forward from wherever one finds oneself, guided by right intent, can completely dissolve years of negative karma, according to Buddhist teachings. Its like a chronic alcoholic waking up and deciding never to drink again. Of course some make it and some dont. But the possibility for reform is ever-present, regardless how many times one falls. This is the difference between authentic Buddhist teachings on karma and your assumption of what karma is. It is definitely not based on reward and punishment - more like personal accountability.

 

Therefore you are correct in saying that many Westerners have an incorrect understanding of the concept of Buddhist karma.

This all appears in good order - it is a tidy and relatively comprehensive and generally incorrect but morally sound representation of thinking along these lines.

It is why so few make it thru the needle. This is a "do" perspective. And a cause and effect perspective.

Also - with reference to Steve's comment:

He said in "in Buddhism the judge is internal - the mind"

In Buddhism - the mind is Not the judge - their is no judge.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Spotless

[C T]

This all appears in good order - it is a tidy and relatively comprehensive and generally incorrect but morally sound representation of thinking along these lines.

It is why so few make it thru the needle. This is a "do" perspective. And a cause and effect perspective.

Also - with reference to Steve's comment:

He said in "in Buddhism the judge is internal - the mind"

In Buddhism - the mind is Not the judge - their is no judge.

The only cause and effect perspective valid for authentic Buddhist understanding is one of clearly seeing how every present action performed in this moment going forward determines the kind of fruit one hopes to cultivate, as differentiated from the generally misguided notion that one's future is somehow already predetermined by one's past actions, which is not helpful because having such an idea usually allows for regretful emotions to colour one's life perspectives.

 

In contrast, Mindfulness practice is the (normally) recommended path towards training in clear-seeing. With Mindfulness practice comes awareness in noticing subtle changes in the mindstream. Noticing subtle changes is crucial in enabling the practitioner to discriminate between useful and harmful patterns of thinking. Its vital. Once this recognition occurs, only then does the rest of the secondary practices, like recitation of mantras, visualisations, dedication of merit and so on make sense... they are tools for establishing the most natural stability in recognition (of inconceivable self nature). Prior to this attainment of utter stability beyond return it is not helpful to discard the precious tools - after attainment, it will be foolish to lug them around like hidden treasures.

 

If you need to discuss further (it seems from the above post that you have), it'd be great if you can open up a new thread/s in the main Buddhist or general section. I will hope to keep this one as uncluttered as possible from discussions and the like so that its intended purpose is not lost. Your understanding is v much appreciated. Thank you.

Edited August 8, 2015 by C T

[C T]

Heaven and Hell

 

Concepts of heaven and hell are but fantasies 
that arise from a foolish mind.

 

If you open the Eye and realize true wisdom, such fantasies disappear by themselves.

 

You will see that everything is Buddha and everything is tranquil,

and that even the concepts of "heaven" and "hell" disappear completely.

 

But if you don't wake up from a sleep, you continue to dream.

 

Thus, if you don't open the Eye, then, unfortunately, you continue on the endless cycles as sentient beings. And since this world of sentient beings is boundless, Buddhas continue traversing the realms until all sentient beings are liberated from suffering.

 

~ Zen master Tong Songchol (1912~1993)

[steve]

Also - with reference to Steve's comment:

He said in "in Buddhism the judge is internal - the mind"

In Buddhism - the mind is Not the judge - their is no judge.

 

From the perspective of the absolute, that is correct.

Who of us has attained the three bodies in this lifetime?

For those of us living in samsara (i.e. all of us) the mind is the judge.

[Tibetan_Ice]

...

In Buddhism - the mind is Not the judge - their is no judge.

In Buddhism, the alayavijnanna is the judge, the substrate consciousness...

 

From Alan Wallace's "Mind In The Balance":

 

According to Buddhist theory, what carries on after death is not an unchanging, unitary, independent soul, self, or energy. Rather, it is an ever-changing stream of consciousness and energy that gives rise to the formation of a human psyche and conditions the formation of the embryo during gestation. The very first moment of consciousness in a developing fetus consists of the substrate consciousness alone, and that consciousness is all that is left in the final stage of the dying process. There is a perfect symmetry, with the end of life reflecting the beginning in a cyclic process that constitutes the nature of sentient existence in the universe. In this continuum of consciousness and energy from life to life there is no enduring, immutable self, only a stream of dependently related mind-body events arising in dependence upon prior causes and conditions.

 

Those prior causes and conditions are called "karma".

[Spotless]

From the perspective of the absolute, that is correct.

Who of us has attained the three bodies in this lifetime?

For those of us living in samsara (i.e. all of us) the mind is the judge.

 

This is also not true - and again it is the perspective from sleep.

[Spotless]

The only cause and effect perspective valid for authentic Buddhist understanding is one of clearly seeing how every present action performed in this moment going forward determines the kind of fruit one hopes to cultivate, as differentiated from the generally misguided notion that one's future is somehow already predetermined by one's past actions, which is not helpful because having such an idea usually allows for regretful emotions to colour one's life perspectives.

In contrast, Mindfulness practice is the (normally) recommended path towards training in clear-seeing. With Mindfulness practice comes awareness in noticing subtle changes in the mindstream. Noticing subtle changes is crucial in enabling the practitioner to discriminate between useful and harmful patterns of thinking. Its vital. Once this recognition occurs, only then does the rest of the secondary practices, like recitation of mantras, visualisations, dedication of merit and so on make sense... they are tools for establishing the most natural stability in recognition (of inconceivable self nature). Prior to this attainment of utter stability beyond return it is not helpful to discard the precious tools - after attainment, it will be foolish to lug them around like hidden treasures.

If you need to discuss further (it seems from the above post that you have), it'd be great if you can open up a new thread/s in the main Buddhist or general section. I will hope to keep this one as uncluttered as possible from discussions and the like so that its intended purpose is not lost. Your understanding is v much appreciated. Thank you.

My comments have been primarily directed to the mislabeling of this thread:

A great number of your quotes are not directed to "Seeing, recognizing and maintaining ones enlightenment potential" and in fact many of them are obscuring, obscuring the possibility of recognizing and obscuring the practices for maintaining ones enlightenment potential.

It is not a conversation and the quotes have not been carefully picked by one who is awakened - which is somewhat inferred by the scope of the title. A lot of the stuff is baloney- pure and simple - bad misleading and obscuring quotes.

I think it is the reason so many come in to view it and leave - in any case - since no discussion of this seems to be of interest - say no more - I do not wish to be a troll and have nothing vested here.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Spotless

[Tibetan_Ice]

Spotless,

For an explanation of the substrate which is the determining factor as to what happens to you after you die, according to Buddhism, see the quote at this link:

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/39050-ego-and-enlightenment/?p=640085

 

And yes, I agree that sometimes CT posts contradictory snippets drawn from non related or opposed teachings, and sometimes I let him know. . But it is always fun to come and see what he has dug up and how my mind reacts..

 

[C T]

[steve]

This is also not true - and again it is the perspective from sleep.

Do you never judge anything?

You're judging this thread in these very posts...

[C T]

Right view ultimately means to understand the meaning of the Madhyamaka. Madhyamaka is the quintessential view of the highest meditations of Mahamudra and Maha Ati. These high meditations cannot be practised without understanding the Madhyamaka view. Perhaps there are other high meditations that I do not know about, but Mahamudra and Maha Ati lead us to Buddhahood. First, the Madhyamaka explains the right view. Then, based on this view, special meditation methods developed and were compiled and have been given names like Mahamudra and Maha Ati. The view and the meditation are separately represented. 

 

In Mahamudra and Maha Ati there is much said about the nature of mind. This means that when the meditator recognizes the actual meaning of Mahamudra or Maha Ati, he is enlightened on the spot. But just try to do it. We joke about it. Many people who have studied these teachings would say, “Mahamudra and Maha Ati are the highest meditations. I have studied them for many years and now I know.” But that would mean that they have been enlightened for a long time. To recognize the nature of mind is to become enlightened. In the teachings of Maha Ati, it is said that if one begins this practice in the evening, one is enlightened the next morning. If one starts in the morning then one is enlightened in the evening. That is only twelve hours, isn’t it? If someone says that he knows it because he has studied it for many years yet if he is still not enlightened, then what does he really know? It is not so easy.

 

You may have heard that you should see the guru as the essence of all Buddhas. Take for instance that I agreed to be your guru and to show you the nature of your mind. You might get very excited because it seems so direct and special. Afterwards when you go home, you would think, “Today I have received a profound meditation from my guru.” But look at yourself. What has actually changed in you? You should then come back to view, meditation and conduct.

 

Milarepa received the teachings from Marpa and then practised alone. He conducted himself to practise twenty-four hours a day in his cave, fully concentrated. But he also sang many songs. Often he meditated and afterwards he would sing a song. Why did he do that? It was his knowledge of meditation that guided his practice. The songs contained this knowledge. He sang them often as a reminder to himself. In the course of his practice, certain methods were necessary at certain times. He would compose a verse to rekindle his knowledge from memory. Although he never studied poetry, he was very good at composing it. Whenever his meditation needed it, he would compose a precise poem. If you read the life story of Milarepa you will notice that he sang songs at important junctures in his practice. When he encountered obstacles, he would recall various methods from memory. In this way Milarepa’s knowledge guided his meditation.

 

The Madhyamaka teaches logically and precisely that phenomena and beings do not really exist, what mental confusion is, and how illusion arises in the mind. It teaches how, if you practise, you can become free from the neuroses, attachments, and the habit of believing in concrete existence. You can remove all of them if you understand very precisely the Madhyamaka view. According to the Madhyamaka view of emptiness, all substantial phenomena are heaps (Skt. skandhas) composed of particles. The particles are then examined metaphysically by breaking them down until even the smallest particle is found not to have any real existence. You then examine mental projections in the same way. It is explained that mind itself is emptiness. It is an accumulation of momentary thoughts, none of which exist independently but arise in dependence on one another. Therefore even mind itself does not have a solid existence either. That is how the Madhyamaka explains emptiness. But then, if we punch the wall now, our hand will still hurt! Although you understand through logic that there is no real existence, you cannot yet experience what it really means. It is not just simply explaining that everything is nonexistent. Logic alone is not enough to remove the illusion. Grounded in the Madhyamaka view, meditations, which build upon one another, have to be practised.

 

What will we achieve by the methods? The Madhyamaka explains that all things are empty. But we do not want to achieve sheer emptiness – what would be the benefit of that? Understanding emptiness will help us achieve a deeper understanding of mind through Mahamudra, the core of the Madhyamaka. We will realize that it is neither the outer world that imprisons us in samsara nor our body. It is neither the universe nor our physical body that is in samsara – it is our mind. The point is to examine mind with the precise logic of the Madhyamaka. When we are properly oriented towards the mind, we have the correct view. To apply this view of the mind in practice, to simply let the mind experience this very view is the Mahamudra experience in one instant.

 

~ Shamar Rinpoche

Edited August 9, 2015 by C T

[C T]

Can the First Cause be Known?
by Venerable K. Sri Dhammananda Maha Thera
from Ven.'s book 'What Buddhists Believe'

 

It is rather difficult for us to understand how the world came into existence without a first cause. But it is very much more difficult to understand how that first cause came into existence at the beginning.

 

According to the Buddha, it is inconceivable to find a first cause for life or anything else. For in common experience, the cause becomes the effect and the effect becomes the cause. In the circle of cause and effect, a first cause is incomprehensible. With regard to the origin of life, the Buddha declares, 'Without cognizable end is this recurrent wandering in Samsara(cycle of birth and death). Beings are obstructed by ignorance and fettered by craving. A first beginning of these beings is not to be perceived. (Anamatagga Samyutta in Samyutta Nikaya). This life-steam flows on ad infinitum, as long as it is fed by the muddy waters of ignorance and craving. When these two are cut off, only then does the life-steam cease to flow, only then does rebirth come to an end.

 

It is difficult to conceive an end of space. It is difficult to conceive an eternal duration of what we call time. But it is more difficult for us to understand how this world came into existence with a first cause. And it is more difficult to understand how that first cause came into existence at the beginning. For if the first cause can exist though uncreated, there is no reason why the other phenomena of the universe must not exist without having also been created.

 

As to the question how all beings came into existence without a first cause, the Buddhist's reply is that there is no answer because the question itself is merely a product of man's limited comprehension. If we can understand the nature of time and relativity, we must see that there could not have been any beginning. It can only be pointed out that all the usual answers to the question are fundamentally defective. If it is assumed that for a thing to exist, it must have had a creator who existed before it, it follows logically that the creator himself must have had a creator, and so on back to infinity. On the other hand, if the creator could exist without a prior cause in the form of another creator, the whole argument falls to the ground. The theory of a creator does not solve any problems, it only complicates the existing ones.

 

Thus Buddhism does not pay much attention to theories and beliefs about the origin of the world. Whether the world was created by a god or it came into existence by itself makes little difference to Buddhist. Whether the world is finite or infinite also makes little difference to Buddhists. Instead of following this line of theoretical speculations, the Buddha advises people to work hard to find their own salvation.

 

Scientists have discovered many causes which are responsible for the existence of life, plants, planets, elements and other energies. But it is impossible for anyone to find out any particular first cause for their existence. If they go on searching for the first cause of any existing life or thing, they point certain causes as the main cause but that never becomes the first cause. In the process of searching for the first cause one after the other, they will come back to the place where they were. This is because, cause becomes the effect and the next moment that effect becomes the cause to produce another effect. That is what the Buddha say, 'It is incomprehensible and the universe is beginningless.'

 

 

 

"Monks, from an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration.

A beginning point is not evident, although beings hindered 

by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating 

and wandering on." ~ Gaddula Sutta

 

http://www.buddhasutra.com/files/gaddula_sutta.htm

[Brian]

Right view ultimately means to understand the meaning of the Madhyamaka.

<snip>

You make me uncomfortable, C T.

 

EDIT: Not that snippet, the post as a whole...

[C T]

You make me uncomfortable, C T.

 

EDIT: Not that snippet, the post as a whole...

Feel free to pm if you would like to expand on reasons why that post made you feel that way, Brian. 

Its not uncommon for such feelings to arise. There's been times when i felt totally bewildered by some teachers' words, or even by their mere presence, and at those times i could not pinpoint exactly why such reactions came up. I simply could not relax into the whole thing, try as I did... and sometimes the agitation/s remained long after the teaching sessions have ended. I put it down to 'lack of quality control' (on my part, of course). 

[C T]

SAMSARA

 

At first my experiences in Samsara
seemed most pleasant and delightful;
Later I learned about its lessons;
In the end, I found a Devil's Prison.
These are my thoughts and feelings on Samsara.
So I made up my mind to renounce it.

 

~ Sixty Songs of Milarepa.