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Zhan Zhuang - Suggestions for Short Practice

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Hi all,

 

Just wondered if anyone could send over recommendations for brief zhan zhuang routines.

 

I've got some time freed up at lunchtime and would like ideas for a c.20minute ZZ session. Goals would be to complement my existing nei gong/meditation/qi gong practices i.e. gathering, feeling, directing qi, LDT work etc.

 

I don't have any experience with ZZ, but imagine it's simple to learn and practice but challenging to perfect.

 

If anyone has any suggestions for forms that would fit into this slot (With brief warm up/down if possible) I'd very much appreciate it.

 

Thanks :)

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The problem with Zhan Zhuang is that the posture and stance are all important. Bad posture and bad stance = poor results or even harmful results. You really do need a good teacher to take you through the basics of how to stand properly before getting started with this as learning from a book or DVD will prove most difficult.

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When I am at work, I look to do anything to address whatever would make me perform and feel better at the time.

When I am stuck in a very small circle of movement as a result of what I am working at, I like to have the break time of release be the opposite: long step low flow of Yang style ward off, or the other stretched out moves in the form.

But when I have am running around like a chicken with its head cut off and need a lot of mental clarity to keep track of all the things that need to be addressed, I do standing practices to still the fluttering in my heart and maybe slow down time itself should it be ameanable to influence. So I am not focused upon the excercises in the way I try to be when doing one of the forms I practice. It is more like: What do I have in my toolkit that can help me now.

 

For instance, I have been doing a lot of the feet turned in, palms forward, elbows horizontal, closed, Bagua posture because it really opens my lower back and kwa. I am not practicing that art but this particular position really addresses my condition and weaknesses in real time. The job I am doing has my body stretched out where it is important to be strong at the ends.

 

In other words, everything you do at work is gong fu. It works some part of you or it ain't work. And the activity will imbalance you. You will strive to recover your balance. Well, you probably get the idea.

 

You have a toolkit with whatever you are practicing now. Put it to the test. Stand there doing what you can and see where you end up.

 

You are an important source of information.

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Hi all,

 

Just wondered if anyone could send over recommendations for brief zhan zhuang routines.

 

I've got some time freed up at lunchtime and would like ideas for a c.20minute ZZ session. Goals would be to complement my existing nei gong/meditation/qi gong practices i.e. gathering, feeling, directing qi, LDT work etc.

 

I don't have any experience with ZZ, but imagine it's simple to learn and practice but challenging to perfect.

 

If anyone has any suggestions for forms that would fit into this slot (With brief warm up/down if possible) I'd very much appreciate it.

 

Thanks :)

 

In general, I agree with Chang regarding most things related to Daoist experiential practices.

With respect to zhan zhuang, however, if you cannot or will not get personal instruction I think this book is quite good - http://www.amazon.com/The-Way-Energy-Mastering-Internal/dp/0671736450

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The problem with Zhan Zhuang is that the posture and stance are all important. Bad posture and bad stance = poor results or even harmful results. You really do need a good teacher to take you through the basics of how to stand properly before getting started with this as learning from a book or DVD will prove most difficult.

 

I disagree - Zhan Zhuan is not that difficult. BTW I see user Steve already provided the link to Lam Kam-Chuen's book, which should really be enough.

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Here's what's been working for me (based on Li Zi Ming's points for circle walking).

 

grip the ground with your toes

flex the knees (knees should not be further forward than the toes)

bring the buttocks in and up

waist is relaxed

chest is brought in

shoulders relax and a bit forward

chin down

pointing up the crown of the head

 

 

Here is what I've found to get a balance from these points:

 

- gripping the ground with the toes flexes the knees as much as you need to flex them

you don't want to over-flex the knees as this is unnecessary tension

having them somewhat flexed protects them from bearing all the weight as the muscles are activated to help with this.

 

- pointing the buttocks in and up brings focus to the dantien.

 

- keeping the waist relaxed helps the chi to flow around the dantien and keeps the posture and other tensions balanced

 

- bringing the shoulders forward stretches the back just above shoulder blades, opening up the pathways there. This also automatically sinks the chest along with the buttocks position.

 

- pointing up the crown automatically sinks the chin and lowers the eyes so that the focus is more easily internalized

 

 

I'll use different hand/arm positions depending on what I feel is needed most. but the lao gung points (center of palms) always point towards the lower or middle dantien. Just putting your right palm directly on your lower abdomen/dantien and the left palm over your right hand (thumb touching about the wrist) is an option too. If you do "hugging the tree," it helps to imagine literally giving some love to a tree with a nice big hug when you take position. This energy focus helps to keep the posture, and also helps with the energy being focused to you from the position/direction of the lao gung points, all of which is better for a more spiritual practice.

 

edit: plus trees deserve some love. I have yet to learn "tree gong," but perhaps it's in my future.

Edited by Harmonious Emptiness
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The problem with Zhan Zhuang is that the posture and stance are all important. Bad posture and bad stance = poor results or even harmful results. You really do need a good teacher to take you through the basics of how to stand properly before getting started with this as learning from a book or DVD will prove most difficult.

 

On this note, for the serious students who are interested in perfect practice: it's impossible to have good posture if your bones are held out of place by your muscles. Most people's pelvises (and sacrums, and spines) are out of alignment in some way or another...and in such cases, any attempts at postural cues will be ineffective in terms of fixing what's wrong.

 

To illustrate:

 

sacroiliac-joints.jpg

 

No matter how awesome your zhan zhuang or martial art teacher is, this kind of thing is not corrected by standing better (by tucking the pelvis or whatever other postural cue). The postural cues in zhan zhuang have other purposes, and are not for the purpose of musculoskeletal alignment.

 

It's well known these days that tucking your pelvis and caving in your chest while rounding your shoulders forward, is literally the opposite of good posture. But it's done in zhan zhuang for, lets say, "energetic" reasons.

 

Good to work with either a chiropractor, or preferably a PT or ATC who knows muscle energy technique to fix any musculoskeletal misalignments...which only compound themselves when practicing in the misaligned state.

 

It is possible to have decent standing practice while being misaligned...your qi flow will improve...but what I mention is just for those striving toward the ideal.

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Another point I should add is that when you bend your knees, most of the work of changing the curvature in your lower back is taken care of. Pushing the buttocks in an upwards helps balance and stability. A good place to covertly test this is standing on a rocky subway.

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Zhan Zhuang is the practice I like the most. It may appear simple, just standing there doing nothing but it is a sensitive exercise, a deep internalising and extremely powerful; it is no different than yoga or tai chi in that copying a few postures and reading a book or watching a DVD and thinking you are getting somewhere is ultimately fooling yourself. It doesn't do it justice at all. And as alluded to already, sometimes it's not always the case that doing a little of something is better than not doing it at all. Zhan Zhuang needs to be done correctly. If your posture is wrong then you can be inviting greater tension into your body and having the adverse affect of the practice - don't assume you will know when your posture is wrong.

 

If you really cannot find a teacher, take a look at this excellent book "Inside Zhan Zhuang" by Mark Cohen it is 358 pages long. I can't add the Amazon link but you'll find it. Zhan Zhuang deserves better than a cursory 'go' now and then - and like many simple things it is not easy, you will still be discovering new things about it decades on. I travel around 170 miles to a class, it's that big a deal.

 

Good luck.

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Try some Baduanjin if you just want to invigorate yourself during lunch break.

Thanks GreytoWhite, but I do the Ji Ben Qigong forms in the evenings, which are similar. I wanted specifically some standing forms to complement the moving forms.

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Another point I should add is that when you bend your knees, most of the work of changing the curvature in your lower back is taken care of. Pushing the buttocks in an upwards helps balance and stability. A good place to covertly test this is standing on a rocky subway.

 

I really don't like to contradict someone directly but feel this is a real misunderstanding (edit: just noticed that you worded it differently in the teacup thread). I see it often enough.

 

Don't "bend the knees" at all, even if Sifu Lam says to do it in his book. And don't think that "bending slightly at the knees" has any kind of beneficial effect, whether energetic or biomechanical. The great Asian masters can do this because everything else is in place, but we westerners can cause more problems than benefits for ourselves when we do it.

 

Keep the knees loose and relaxed. A simple way to goo about it is to lock them intentionally to the rear, holding the tension for maybe 15 seconds, then inhaling and on the exhale just release the tension. That's it. Avoid going any deep than that. Make mental note of that relaxed feeling in the knees, the light springiness, and try to maintain it, call it up, at regular intervals while standing.

 

The more advanced way to "bend at the knees" is the classic pelvic tilt, the sinking of the sacrum likewise the pulling of the tailbone to the front. This movement should result in the weight shifting slightly to the heels and the knees should give way, but passively, lightly.

 

I think, too, that it's a mistake to get too heavily involved in the advanced levels of posture without an experienced person to check and make corrections.

 

But I also believe that standing meditation is extremely effective and can be done other ways.

 

Btw, here's an even better book, especially for beginners, but even the most advanced gurus will find inspiration in it:

 

The Dynamics of Standing Still

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In general, I agree with Chang regarding most things related to Daoist experiential practices.

With respect to zhan zhuang, however, if you cannot or will not get personal instruction I think this book is quite good - http://www.amazon.com/The-Way-Energy-Mastering-Internal/dp/0671736450

 

Thanks Steve - I have managed to get a copy of this book and it looks excellent. Exactly what i am after. Cheers

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...

 

If you really cannot find a teacher, take a look at this excellent book "Inside Zhan Zhuang" by Mark Cohen it is 358 pages long. I can't add the Amazon link but you'll find it. Zhan Zhuang deserves better than a cursory 'go' now and then - and like many simple things it is not easy, you will still be discovering new things about it decades on. I travel around 170 miles to a class, it's that big a deal.

 

Good luck.

 

Thanks Wayfarer, for the recommendation and the info. That is serious dedication. Impressive.

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I really don't like to contradict someone directly but feel this is a real misunderstanding. I see it often enough.

 

Don't "bend the knees" at all, even if Sifu Lam says to do it in his book. And don't think that "bending slightly at the knees" has any kind of beneficial effect, whether energetic or biomechanical. The great Asian masters can do this because everything else is in place, but we westerners can cause more problems than benefits for ourselves when we do it.

 

Keep the knees loose and relaxed. A simple way to goo about it is to lock them intentionally to the rear, holding the tension for maybe 15 seconds, then inhaling and on the exhale just release the tension. That's it. Avoid going any deep than that. Make mental note of that relaxed feeling in the knees, the light springiness, and try to maintain it, call it up, at regular intervals while standing.

 

The more advanced way to "bend at the knees" is the classic pelvic tilt, the sinking of the sacrum likewise the pulling of the tailbone to the front. This movement should result in the weight shifting slightly to the heels and the knees should give way, but passively, lightly.

 

I think, too, that it's a mistake to get too heavily involved in the advanced levels of posture without an experienced person to check and make corrections.

 

But I also believe that standing meditation is extremely effective and can be done other ways.

 

Btw, here's an even better book, especially for beginners, but even the most advanced gurus will find inspiration in it:

 

The Dynamics of Standing Still

 

Thanks SC - I appreciate your input and you r advice about the knees. This is interesting indeed. I have been told by experienced qigong/neigong practitioners to bend the knees so they are just behind the toes. I would be interested to hear other people's opinions on this matter.

 

Thanks for the book link too :)

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Thanks SC - I appreciate your input and you r advice about the knees. This is interesting indeed. I have been told by experienced qigong/neigong practitioners to bend the knees so they are just behind the toes. I would be interested to hear other people's opinions on this matter.

 

Thanks for the book link too :)

 

 

Oh, I know, people say it and write it all the time, but that correction is for alignment purposes, not depth. Aligned with the toes and max depth to just where you can see the tips of the toes, is how it should be worded. Simply bending at the knees (going into a shallow squat) to that depth is going to put too much pressure on them, block the flow, and give you knee trouble over time (unless you've got all the other elements of the alignments mastered, see Chang's post above).

 

Doing it the way I described will result in your natural depth (which may well be quite deep, but probably not that deep). It's a simple concept if you think of qigong as methods to boost qi flow.

 

The book doesn't seem to be available for a normal price at amazon.com ... I paid 38 Euro, and it was worth every euro-cent. Peter den Dekker is a long (very long) -time direct student of Sifu Lam and Lam himself has praised the book in glowing terms.

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I really don't like to contradict someone directly but feel this is a real misunderstanding (edit: just noticed that you worded it differently in the teacup thread). I see it often enough.

 

Don't "bend the knees" at all, even if Sifu Lam says to do it in his book. And don't think that "bending slightly at the knees" has any kind of beneficial effect, whether energetic or biomechanical. The great Asian masters can do this because everything else is in place, but we westerners can cause more problems than benefits for ourselves when we do it.

 

(ditto, it is difficult to not sound confrontational when directly disagreeing with someone's point, without qualifiers, on the internet. Phew!)

 

I think we can agree that one shouldn't lock the knees at least.

 

I agree that the lower stances are more for people with martial arts training who have a comfort level in those stances.

 

Either way, flexing (slight bend) and flexing (tensing the muscles via gripping the floor) the knees is pretty minimum standard, imho.

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Perhaps we could bend one knee and keep the other straight???? Is this turning in to the hokey cokey?

Edited by Wayfarer

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I really don't like to contradict someone directly but feel this is a real misunderstanding (edit: just noticed that you worded it differently in the teacup thread). I see it often enough.

 

Don't "bend the knees" at all, even if Sifu Lam says to do it in his book. And don't think that "bending slightly at the knees" has any kind of beneficial effect, whether energetic or biomechanical. The great Asian masters can do this because everything else is in place, but we westerners can cause more problems than benefits for ourselves when we do it.

 

Keep the knees loose and relaxed. A simple way to goo about it is to lock them intentionally to the rear, holding the tension for maybe 15 seconds, then inhaling and on the exhale just release the tension. That's it. Avoid going any deep than that. Make mental note of that relaxed feeling in the knees, the light springiness, and try to maintain it, call it up, at regular intervals while standing.

 

The more advanced way to "bend at the knees" is the classic pelvic tilt, the sinking of the sacrum likewise the pulling of the tailbone to the front. This movement should result in the weight shifting slightly to the heels and the knees should give way, but passively, lightly.

 

I think, too, that it's a mistake to get too heavily involved in the advanced levels of posture without an experienced person to check and make corrections.

 

But I also believe that standing meditation is extremely effective and can be done other ways.

 

Btw, here's an even better book, especially for beginners, but even the most advanced gurus will find inspiration in it:

 

The Dynamics of Standing Still

 

I too don't feel like contradicting too much too directly, which is why I wrote and then deleted my post in response to HE's paradigm. (Harmonious Emptiness, if you are reading this -- in that deleted post I objected to every single point of your instructions with the exception of "the waist is relaxed." Sorry... I'll make it up to you, I agree with you more often than not on most occasions. :) )

 

So, now, still not wanting to contradict, SC, didn't you when you said you didn't want to? -- now that I've learned from you how this is done... :D What you say about the knees is spot on, but the tailbone... :unsure: No it doesn't point forward when you're static. This is for movement.

 

And this is one of the great secrets of the great masters (of which I'm not one, but I learned this from one) I've just made public. I wonder how many will ignore it because I wasn't breathing fire on youtube while revealing it. :angry::(:D

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I find that a bit (even a little bit) of movement warm-up before still standing is helpful:

- joint rotations

- something for the spine

- body weight squats

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I too don't feel like contradicting too much too directly, which is why I wrote and then deleted my post in response to HE's paradigm. (Harmonious Emptiness, if you are reading this -- in that deleted post I objected to every single point of your instructions with the exception of "the waist is relaxed." Sorry... I'll make it up to you, I agree with you more often than not on most occasions. :) )

 

So, now, still not wanting to contradict, SC, didn't you when you said you didn't want to? -- now that I've learned from you how this is done... :D What you say about the knees is spot on, but the tailbone... :unsure: No it doesn't point forward when you're static. This is for movement.

 

And this is one of the great secrets of the great masters (of which I'm not one, but I learned this from one) I've just made public. I wonder how many will ignore it because I wasn't breathing fire on youtube while revealing it. :angry::(:D

I am afraid that when it comes to stance and posture the use of words can prove very misleading. Hence the disagreements in this thread. My own view is that photographs, diagrams and video are not much better. It can well be that two persons practising the same thing in the same way may disagree when discussing the particular exercise as words can be confusing and misleading.

 

My own training in the Taoist Arts and my work as an Instructor have proved to me beyond all doubt that improvement in stance and posture is a slow and gradual process as muscle memory sets in and correct use of the body becomes habitual. A correct stance and posture in these arts, energetic or martial, is of paramount importance and anyone who thinks differently is most sadly deluded.

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I find that a bit (even a little bit) of movement warm-up before still standing is helpful:

- joint rotations

- something for the spine

- body weight squats

 

Yep i tend to do deep kua squats and the spinal wave before any practice (alogn with stretches.)

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What you say about the knees is spot on, but the tailbone... :unsure: No it doesn't point forward when you're static. This is for movement.

 

That might be for martial arts, but there's another purpose for doing it static.

 

Different teachers saying different things...what is the absolute truth?

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That might be for martial arts, but there's another purpose for doing it static.

 

Different teachers saying different things...what is the absolute truth?

 

Taoist fundamentals. The underlying theory and the practical applications and implications. The beauty of taoist arts and sciences is that nothing contradicts anything else -- it's a unified system. If what you (the generic you, not you personally) do for MA contradicts what you do for qigong, it means the fundamental premises of taoism are being ignored -- or, in a more typical case, just not known to the teacher. This non-knowledge is transmitted to the student, in the form of incorrect use of the body. Hence so many contradicting instructions flying around the noosphere, of which 95% follow The Great Law of the Internet -- "95% of everything on the internet is shit."

 

So, what I said about the tailbone is not "for martial arts" because it is based on the fundamental taoist principle of yin-yang which is built into the human body and its kinesthetics. Yin and yang are stillness and motion, containing, to boot, stillness within movement and movement within stillness, accordingly ("the eye of the fish" in the taiji diagram, which is not called The Great Ultimate for nothing -- it expresses everything, not qigong or martial arts but being and nonbeing in all their possible manifestations.)

 

The human body "opens and closes" like tao. ZZ is a "closed" externally, "open" internally posture. To accomplish its goal, i.e. the opening of the inner realms, you use the yin principle on the level of "subtle energetics" and this is accomplished by providing the correct yin structure at the level of gross anatomy. The major regulator of the opening-closing of "subtle energetics" is the mingmen, at the back and center of the human body. Anatomically, it is the area of the spine with major nerves connecting to all major internal organs of the body. Now, the somatic awareness of this opening-closing master gate, known as The Gate of Life, is generally impossible to acquire unless the area is first brought into awareness as capable of opening and closing.

 

THIS is accomplished with the aid and guidance of the tailbone. The moving of the tailbone forward opens the mingmen, the pointing down keeps it in a position that can be likened to the "mysterious border" separating yin and yang, ready to go either way without committing; and pointing it slightly back closes the mingmen. In MA, this is used to return and store the qi before the next move. (Also in correct walking, when the tailbone is subtly back-forward mobile at every step, like a fish tail.) In ZZ, pointing it slightly back closes the whole yin structure, closes the mingmen so there's no leaking of qi and it can start accumulating and moving inside. If it's kept open, i.e. with the tailbone pointing forward, it will leak. In fact, it leaks continuously from that point because Westerners sleep on soft surfaces -- but that's for another discussion... the point being that this is part of the fundamentals and applicable to everything -- MA, qigong, walking, sleeping, sitting, or as the sage put it, "to be human, you need to master four things -- stand like a human, walk like a human, sit like a human, lie down like a human." :)

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