Jian

[mYTHmAKER]

ChiDragon, I hear you are tired of people urging you towards a teacher.

And it is fine if you don't want one. But it is still true that others may find use in one.

 

Taomeow - your sharpness of intent is easily felt and reacted to!

Chi Dragon doesn't want a teacher - he wants to be the teacher

[Daeluin]

A teacher cannot teach with force. A teacher must listen to their students and be willing to change from what is learned from them. Fixed perspectives are ever holding back the inevitability of growth and instead invite decay. Nothing can escape change.

 

It is easy to doge the predictable sword swing - if one wishes to connect, one must adapt, not wait for people to stand in the way. What skill in that?

 

Wielding principle one may adapt beyond the realm of black and white.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Daeluin

[ChiDragon]

Sword or no sword it is the same.

 

It seems to me that you are telling me this: You have not learned the internal secret by intuition yet. Please let us know after you pick up the sword and find out the difference.

 

 

[dwai]

Chi Dragon doesn't want a teacher - he wants to be the teacher

You mean "THE" teacher...

[dwai]

With Sword form I realized that it is even more important to have the energy flow going otherwise the form that we practice is pretty physically challenging. While I enjoy the physical challenge, when I see my Sifu move, its like watching water flowing. Effortless movement, soft yet powerful.

 

Like Steve pointed out, the sword gets heavier as the form progresses if we use our muscular strength. Only way to flow through the form is to at least project the energy to the tip of the sword (if not beyond).

 

Another important point of sword selection is the length of the blade. With the sword held at the side, the hand holding the sword hanging comfortably below the waist level (elbow slightly bent per Tai chi edicts), the tip should be at the temple/eye level. That is the correct length of the blade/sword.

[joeblast]

god spelled backwards is dog

 

Edited August 8, 2014 by joeblast

[Daeluin]

Another important point of sword selection is the length of the blade. With the sword held at the side, the hand holding the sword hanging comfortably below the waist level (elbow slightly bent per Tai chi edicts), the tip should be at the temple/eye level. That is the correct length of the blade/sword.

 

Is one holding the hilt of the sword, or the guard, for this measuring? I was taught something similar, but to hold around the guard using a sword hand - with the index and middle fingers pointing straight along the length of the hilt towards the pommel, and the thumb, ring and pinky fingers clasped around the guard. It was mentioned the tip should land somewhere in the ear region. If held by the hilt however this would raise the tip higher.

[mYTHmAKER]

With Sword form I realized that it is even more important to have the energy flow going otherwise the form that we practice is pretty physically challenging. While I enjoy the physical challenge, when I see my Sifu move, its like watching water flowing. Effortless movement, soft yet powerful.

 

Like Steve pointed out, the sword gets heavier as the form progresses if we use our muscular strength. Only way to flow through the form is to at least project the energy to the tip of the sword (if not beyond).

 

Another important point of sword selection is the length of the blade. With the sword held at the side, the hand holding the sword hanging comfortably below the waist level (elbow slightly bent per Tai chi edicts), the tip should be at the temple/eye level. That is the correct length of the blade/sword.

So far i have come across the following variations of information re the length of the sword.

Holding sword in beginning posture blade pointing up.

1. Bottom of your ear

2. Middle of your ear

3. Top of your ear.

4. Temple eye level - which is about the middle of the ear.

I took the sword i am presently using which is too short - mYHHISmAKERS - and added cardboard tubing from a hanger.

I tried it at 30 - 31 - 32 inches. 30 inches came to a little above the bottom of my ear. With 31 inches I had to be careful not to hit the floor with the tip - obviously same for 32 inches.

I happen to have long arms.

So the length of your arms and maybe also your torso and legs fit into the equation. I did find someone with a similar experience on one of the forums.

My conclusion regarding sword length is these are only general rules and as in taiji one adapts to the forms according to the way they were created by Dog. We follow the Tao.

[mYTHmAKER]

If you want it just for show performance, then, you want to get a flexible Tai Ji Jian(太極劍).

 

For strength practice with Neigong experience, you probably would want a rigid one.

 

The balance point should about 6 inches from the vicinity of the blade side of the handle.

 

I own a slim one which is a Ba Gua Tai Chi Sword(八卦太極劍) shown, here, in the eighth figure down:

http://www.wushukey.com/weapon02jian/wushu04taichijian.htm

Serious question

Why do you say rigid for Neigong and flexible for performance - excluding bendy Wushu swords.

Everyone please feel free to answer

[Taomeow]

Serious question

Why do you say rigid for Neigong and flexible for performance - excluding bendy Wushu swords.

Everyone please feel free to answer

 

I think it's an urban legend. My teacher shrugged off the idea when I ran it by him. He's a former sword champion of Beijing.

 

The origin of the legend? I suspect it's it the male unconscious projecting its eternal dread of non-rigidity onto the object that might symbolize their manhood so readily.

 

Obviously a woman with a sword does not have this venue for projection... so sometimes a sword is just a sword, and if it's flexible, this symbolizes her qi and can be a more complete symbol for self -- "flexible like me" rather than "rigid like my..."

[mYTHmAKER]

 

 

Obviously a woman with a sword does not have this venue for projection... so sometimes a sword is just a sword, and if it's flexible, this symbolizes her qi and can be a more complete symbol for self -- "flexible like me" rather than "rigid like my..."

but if one is able to be flexible with a rigid blade

[Daeluin]

For training, perhaps teaches more sensitivity to work internally with a blade whose quiverings are not felt with the slightest movement, requiring one to seek deeper.... on the other hand, if too stiff one might have trouble getting deep enough to connect to the responsiveness enough to get proper feedback to help evolve one's training. Also if wushu flexy, it may take more skill to really sync with the quiverings so as to get deeper into the metal energetically, rather than connecting to the movement. In the end somewhere in between is probably good. Just my speculation. Curious how my "theories" will evolve when I start practicing next month!

 

Again, principle extends into the realm between black and white, adapting but undaunted. I suppose that's how my mind works... can't wait to get rid of the need for it. ~_~

 

With staff work, I've mostly used a heavier staff that isn't flexy - it's been trying to get it to vibrate without forcing it too much, but I can. Then in class I've started using a borrowed staff that is much lighter, and instantly I was surprised by how much I was able to get it to quiver. I feel if I had started only with the lighter staff, I might have been tempted to work on a more surface level in the beginning.

 

In any case, to really understand the difference it is probably helpful to train with different amounts of flex and see how your training naturally responds and evolves as it adapts to different mediums.

 

For training purposes it might be more developmental to send qi into something stiffer and heavier... perhaps you get only so deep... but then you pick up something lighter and then find not only are you able to penetrate fully, but can compress into it as well. On the other hand, if using something heavier it might be too difficult to not wield it physically instead of energetically. So to adjust to moving with the blade energetically and not physically, perhaps something lighter is best, and to work on compressing energy into something heavier might be suitable, if one can avoid physicality.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Daeluin

[Taomeow]

but if one is able to be flexible with a rigid blade

 

Of course! I didn't mean a rigid blade is not a good thing -- I meant a flexible one is not an inferior thing.

 

I'm a beginner with jian, so my ideas are largely theoretical (drawing on the overall taoist principles and taijiquan principles in particular), plus what my teacher says, plus what limited sensory input I got so far. I would surmise that a flexible and a rigid blade would serve different purposes, both in external (which we are in the wrong century to test empirically) and internal applications. E.g. it seems to me that a rigid blade can help with skills of "control," a flexible one, "adaptability." Also it depends on the style. I've no Yang but I have a feeling that a rigid sword is more Yang, a flexible one, more Chen. I may be wrong of course.

[mYTHmAKER]

Of course! I didn't mean a rigid blade is not a good thing -- I meant a flexible one is not an inferior thing.

 

I'm a beginner with jian, so my ideas are largely theoretical (drawing on the overall taoist principles and taijiquan principles in particular), plus what my teacher says, plus what limited sensory input I got so far. I would surmise that a flexible and a rigid blade would serve different purposes, both in external (which we are in the wrong century to test empirically) and internal applications. E.g. it seems to me that a rigid blade can help with skills of "control," a flexible one, "adaptability." Also it depends on the style. I've no Yang but I have a feeling that a rigid sword is more Yang, a flexible one, more Chen. I may be wrong of course.

of course

Actually no one type of sword is specific to Chen - Yang or Wu. They are all internal. In fact if we don't have a sword my teacher will use a stick.

We need some experienced people to contribute.

A lot of us - myself included - don't have enough experience to do more than theorize -

with the exception of Chi Dragon of course.

Edited August 8, 2014 by mYTHmAKER

[ChiDragon]

Serious question

Why do you say rigid for Neigong and flexible for performance - excluding bendy Wushu swords.

Everyone please feel free to answer

 

I love you guys......!!!

There is a big difference between a flexible and metallic rigid swords. The flexible is a very light weighted sword. It is easy for an ordinary person to hold and go through the long form of movements without being tired. IMO It is fine to practice with a light and wooden swords to learn the basic forms, but it is only for looks.

 

For the purpose of Wu Shu practice, the practitioner has great physical strength. Normally, one deals with speed and brutal strikes with a heavier sword.

 

For the purpose of Neigong like a Tai Ji practioner, one has to deal with the principles of Yang/Yin which require to take advantage of the weight of the sword. With a flexible sword, the Yang attribute cannot be executed because of it's lightness. Unfortunately, one can only execute the Yin attribute with a flexible sword. However, it is wonderful to watch a feminine performance with a flexible sword without interference by the weight of the sword.

 

With a metallic rigid sword, a Neigong practitioner shall be able to handle the sword like a flexible one. During the performance, one should feel the rigid sword like a feather with no weight. Of course, at some point, one should feel the heaviness and the lightness(no weight) of the sword.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

Is one holding the hilt of the sword, or the guard, for this measuring? I was taught something similar, but to hold around the guard using a sword hand - with the index and middle fingers pointing straight along the length of the hilt towards the pommel, and the thumb, ring and pinky fingers clasped around the guard. It was mentioned the tip should land somewhere in the ear region. If held by the hilt however this would raise the tip higher.

In the preparation form, the opposite hand is usually holding the sword at the guard, with the middle finger resting against the length of the hilt (at least that's how we're taught in Temple style). The flat of the blade lays parallel along the length of the forearm (back of the forearm), the back of the upper arm, past the shoulders to the eye level. Sifu told us that is the best position to gauge blade length.

[dwai]

Serious question

Why do you say rigid for Neigong and flexible for performance - excluding bendy Wushu swords.

Everyone please feel free to answer

In my experience it is the other way round. If the blade is too rigid, you cannot use it to feedback qi projection. I wouldn't rely on Chi Dragon's testimony if I were you - he doesn't even believe in Qi...

 

So, my teacher says, start with a moderately flexible sword. Then go to a fully flexible or a rigid one after having developed some skill in both projecting as well as sensing the flow of Qi into the blade.

[joeblast]

often, I'll practice on a 6 string, and perform on a 5

[ChiDragon]

In my experience it is the other way round. If the blade is too rigid, you cannot use it to feedback qi projection. I wouldn't rely on Chi Dragon's testimony if I were you - he doesn't even believe in Qi...

 

hehehehe.....

Chi is a very subtle thing to be spoken very coarse of. I do not speak of Chi, lightly, with an umbrella term.

 

PS....

I would prefer that the energy through the sword as Jin(勁).

 

 

Edited August 11, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

often, I'll practice on a 6 string, and perform on a 5

I'm considering a 7 or 8 string, but seems like a bit of an overkill

[Wu Ming Jen]

My advise would be pick a sword that resonates with you. As far as flexible practice metal sword its the best to begin with. advance to a live weapon a much heaver blade. I have quite a few old swords. One seven star sword has a small handle for me but is perfect for my wife.

 

Wood swords that are not one piece are dangerous. When moving fast the handle separates from the blade and is sent flying in that direction.

 

The internal aspects of sword requires no sword at all. when moving with proper body mechanics and breath move as if you have a sword in your hand, thrust, carry, cut, lift and so on then when you pick up a sword you can make it "sing" yes the marvelous sound of the sword.

 

If I use my flexible sword I can easily bend the blade with a simple cut and then twist in the opposite direction which is annoying so I cant use it, this happens with out using force just turning my waste with moderate speed.

[mYTHmAKER]

Zhang Yun

The Art of Chinese Swordsmanship

"usually if a sword can stand alone, I mean put the tip of the sword on the ground and if it can stand without folding, it is good enough for practice."

[mYTHmAKER]

hehehehe.....

Chi is a very subtle thing to be spoken very coarse of. I do not speak of Chi, lightly, with an umbrella term.

yes if a sword is not handy you may use an umbrella

[ChiDragon]

Taomeow....
Remember we had a talk about a mosquito and the rain drops.....??? I think we can use the same principle to talk about the sword at free fall in contact with the hand. Do you think you can find that thread again...???

[Taomeow]

 

Taomeow....

Remember we had a talk about a mosquito and the rain drops.....??? I think we can use the same principle to talk about the sword at free fall in contact with the hand. Do you think you can find that thread again...???

 

Nope. I have to use whatever is handy -- a sword, an umbrella, a keyboard -- to fend off metaphors always swarming around my head like so many mosquitoes. Which ones I manage to swat so that they fall and stay immobilized -- I mean get written down -- I seldom remember.