The most direct training practice in Dzogchen

[asunthatneversets]

You only say they are, but cite no sources to back up your claim.

Zoom already cited one, the fact he failed to understand it properly and misinterpreted the text due to filtering it through his own presuppositions is not my fault.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

You are projecting.

 

In the relative sense, since there are certain criteria I would have to meet in order for my assessment to be a genuine projection, and I do not meet that criteria in this context; I am not projecting.

 

It also seems you pull the 'projection' card quite often, which means the probability that such a value judgement is warranted or accurate is slim.

 

Therefore I stand by my statement: the fact you failed to understand what was being alluded to in that text, and misinterpreted said text due to filtering it through your presuppositions is still not my fault.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

Excuse me that I don't value your opinion but I can't respect a person who behaves irrational by ignoring everything that contradicts his fanatical belief system.

Fanatical belief system? I didn't know you thought of Dzogchen that way... better move along then.

 

You still owe me to quote a logical reason your guru gave why a good book allegedly can't replace a "direct transmission".

I will not be citing any more quotes or referencing anything you could get your hands on. I have no interest in seeing you further degrade and eviscerate these teachings and I definitely will not allow it to occur as a result of my own actions.

Edited August 5, 2014 by asunthatneversets

[Wells]

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Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[stefos]

Zoom:

 

You still owe me to quote a logical reason your guru gave why a good book allegedly can't replace a "direct transmission".

I can say one thing about Dzogchen transmission: It is "done" by the teacher/Master to the student not thru a book.

 

No book can give direct transmission.

 

My Guru Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche has always stated that you need a teacher for direct transmission or another form of transmission: Showing a crystal rock and peacock feather without the teacher saying anything. I can't say more about this as this is part of samaya!

 

Now, Jiddhu Krishnamurti himself was a teacher of "choiceless awareness" and even he, who was anti-guru in the sense that the guru was THE penultimate to be trusted unequivocally, walked people through the "process" of actual choiceless awareness. He always said things like "Go further into it sirs" or "Please, the speaker is not merely talking" or "Take a journey along with the speaker" etc. to get people actually involved IN choiceless awareness and not just make an intellectual abstraction out of it.

 

Stefos.......My 1 cent worth

Edited September 7, 2014 by stefos

[BaguaKicksAss]

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Edited September 30, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[BaguaKicksAss]

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Edited September 30, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[Wells]

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Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[C T]

Why would the most basic and simple practice, such as 24X7 awareness, or compassion, or tonglen, or watching the breath, alone not do it?

 

The 24X7 bit being the important bit.

It won't do it because certain mentalities can't tell the difference between authentic and delusional experiences. Moreover, its silly to opt for DIY trials with respect to Dzogchen esoteric practices. The errors cannot be self-detected which usually ends up fooling the practitioner for lifetimes, not just this one.

[BaguaKicksAss]

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Edited September 30, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[C T]

So a teacher would be needed to help us not just go further into delusion, that makes perfect sense from all I have seen.

 

I guess then I would ask, say someone has a teacher who is actually enlightened... very hypothetically, are the fancy more advanced and secret teachings actually that much more affective than the simple ones mentioned above? (yes I know in reality said teacher would help guide the student where they needed to go, but I'm just curious why the more complex and involved stuff is needed).

How effective the teachings become depends entirely on the relationship between student, teacher and the very lineage itself. The energetic connection with the lineage is paramount. Without the right teacher as the (metaphorically speaking) conduit, it is not possible to continuously draw on this energy. One might get it in spurts, or droplets, from reading books and doing self-exploratory experiments, but soon these could dry up due to the limitation of resources.

 

As you may already know, the path has stages. Not that the latter stages are more profound, its just a matter of the preparatory practices being put in place to get the newish practitioners' minds ready to receive the more so-called complex teachings. When the preliminary practices are habituated, then the deeper stuff will not be quite so challenging. As an example, If these prelim stages are not habituated properly, then how can one hope to maintain discipline of the mind, each day, in order to create & retain visualisations, sit for hours in meditation, chant mantras for tens of thousands of rounds, and so on? This is the 24/7 awareness that masters talk about, before actual non-distraction can be fully stable.

[steve]

Why would the most basic and simple practice, such as 24X7 awareness, or compassion, or tonglen, or watching the breath, alone not do it?

 

The 24X7 bit being the important bit.

 

Do what?

I think that piece is important to clarify.

[BaguaKicksAss]

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Edited September 30, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[Wells]

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Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[BaguaKicksAss]

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Edited September 30, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[Wells]

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Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[C T]

Really? That's a great chance for you, if I were you I'd take advantage of that situation (IF they teach in fact Dzogchen material).

In Germany, however, things are rather as I told you above.

Not 'if', but when.

 

Truth is, the esoteric aspects of Dzogchen are imparted only to those who have shown exceptional devotion to a root guru over a lengthy period, say 10 years, and have done at least one full year of intensive, private retreat, preferably having also completed a full 3 year one.

 

By private retreat, i mean joining a small, sanctioned group of retreatants (group size usually not more than 10 per retreat) who are placed into a secluded environment and there receive certain exclusive Dzogchen sadhanas which they will have to practice for the full duration, at which time no outside communication takes place at all.

 

The financial commitment is quite daunting for such retreats, easily upwards of $6k - $8k for the full year, but students who have been following a master for a long time do enjoy a reasonably good rebate if they decide to attend. Food (3 meals per day) and lodging is included in the price, even the laundry is taken of. On the other hand, its not really expensive as such, taking into account that we easily spend more than the stipulated amount each year on living expenses.

 

Daily schedule is quite uniform. Practice starts each morning at 4, goes all day with 45-minute breaks for meals and short intervals for getting in some exercise or reading, and finishing about 10pm. No off days. Private consultations with the retreat master or assistant can be arranged, like once every couple of weeks. Retreatants also undertake healing or Phowa requests put in by sangha members, especially for those whose friends and family are experiencing terminal illnesses or have recently passed on.

[BaguaKicksAss]

ZOOM, I think we need to start saving up now... .

[Cheshire Cat]

Do you know how much it costs to spend a whole life in retreat?

Or how to arrange one?

 

 

The financial commitment is quite daunting for such retreats, easily upwards of $6k - $8k for the full year, but students who have been following a master for a long time do enjoy a reasonably good rebate if they decide to attend. Food (3 meals per day) and lodging is included in the price, even the laundry is taken of. On the other hand, its not really expensive as such, taking into account that we easily spend more than the stipulated amount each year on living expenses.

[C T]

Do you know how much it costs to spend a whole life in retreat?

Or how to arrange one?

Whole life?? Thats quite a noble wish. I dont know the cost of such an undertaking, but as a guess, i'd say it varies, dependent on a number of factors, of which location would be a main consideration. I can imagine it'd cost less to do it in India than say the US.

 

As for the arrangements, well, that would depend again on where one is, and how one wishes the set-up to be. For example, one done in complete isolation would differ from one done in semi-isolation. Being associated with a monastery would be a boon, whereas approaching it independently might be a little more difficult. I know of people here who have fully abandoned the mundane life, devoting their time to practice 24/7. They live in a small room that is part of a secluded retreat house which has been carved into the side of a hill overlooking the Atlantic ocean. Maybe once a month, they will venture into the village to replenish essentials, other than that their time is all spent in the cubicle.

 

These individuals are all senior students of this particular tradition, having been with their teacher for well over 20 years. They would already have in place a few devoted friends who sort of aspire to follow in their footsteps, and these friends have a schedule set up among themselves to render any assistance when required, such as cooking meals, cleaning, shopping, research, medical and other general support.

[BaguaKicksAss]

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Edited September 30, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[C T]

$6-$8k for the entire year... some nearby folks charge $2000 per month for their 3-6 month retreats! Food and shared accommodations included, but still, I don't spend that much now with all my expenses! Betcha the prices in India are a little less too...

 

Hmmm for a lifetime; how good are you at growing your own food and plant identification? :>

I'm sure it costs a fraction of that to do it in India or Nepal.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I'm sure it costs a fraction of that to do it in India or Nepal.

 

And the food would be better too!