alchemist

Wuliupai school

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i would disagree. high level in my understanding is a celestial immortal. and i'm pretty sure that's the same as your schools understanding. this just takes a lot of meditation

What is called 'celestial immortality' in our school cannot be achieved by 'a lot of meditation'.

I will try to post an appropriate translation a bit later.

BR

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Zhao Bichen's school is a non-orthodox branch of Wuliupai. Their practice differs from Wuliu methods.

Wan Liping has no relation to Wuliu.

Wuliuxianzong is Wu Chongxu's text, so yes, it is a good source for studying Wuliu teachings.

BR

I'm aware of that. Zhao Bichen has mixed several methods but some say that his main feature is longmen.As far I know, in longmen (and derived methods) they insist in it (erection stuff), because of that Wang Liping was included.

I believe that Wuliupai doesn't insist in that sign as the "birth of yang" and defines "stopping the leakage" in a different way.

Thanks, I will try to work with the Wuliuxianzong (with time).

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He does not. A simple question: can you tell what, how and in which circumstances you need to practice from reading HMJ? I suppose you can not.

The reason why Wuliu Patriarchs are saying that they name some things openly is that the medieval Patriarchs are way more obscure. So Wuliupai texts are more clear than the medieval neidan classics, but that’s all. There are no methods described there.

BR

 

depends on what you mean by "circumstances."

 

As to "no methods described there," I have to respectfully disagree.

 

"Giving up self to accord with others, I prepared and set forth this chart. It completely reveals the Inner Workings of heaven. If ordinary people recieve it, surely there is nothing they will not achieve.

 

If you do not have virtuous power, even if you encounter the Tao, heaven will certainly not grant it to you. Why is this? De and Dao are like a bird's wings. If one is missing [the other] is useless. You must have dedication, filial piety, benevolence and rectitude, and the Five [buddhist] Precepts must all be pristine. Only then do you have something to hope for.

 

The pure and subtle marvels in all this are all to be found in the Huiming Jing. Those who practice and observe both [De and Dao, like the bird's wings] will without exception reach perfection."

 

 

He has made this statement a number of times in the text. I don't see how it could be more word-play. It seems that was clearly not his intention - to write more indecipherable instructions that require outside help.

 

Not to say that outside help can't be beneficial.

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What is called 'celestial immortality' in our school cannot be achieved by 'a lot of meditation'.

I will try to post an appropriate translation a bit later.

BR

 

what is the difference between celestial immortality in your school compared to every other taoist school?

The description on the "fake" Wuliu website shares no distinction

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depends on what you mean by "circumstances."

 

As to "no methods described there," I have to respectfully disagree.

 

He has made this statement a number of times in the text. I don't see how it could be more word-play. It seems that was clearly not his intention - to write more indecipherable instructions that require outside help.

 

Not to say that outside help can't be beneficial.

There are no ‘instructions’ at all there. What is described in neidan texts are general principles. Some texts describe them in a very obscurant way (like most medieval classics), the others are more or less clear (like Wuliu texts), but these are still principles, not methods. However they are often misinterpreted as methods.

Neidan texts are written to accompany oral instructions, not to replace them.

BR

Edited by alchemist
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what is the difference between celestial immortality in your school compared to every other taoist school?

The description on the "fake" Wuliu website shares no distinction

There is no difference between the understanding of ‘celestial immortality’ in Wuliupai and other schools of neidan. And ‘a lot of meditation’ is not a right way to achieve it.

BR

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There are no ‘instructions’ at all there. What is described in neidan texts are general principles. Some texts describe them in a very obscurant way (like most medieval classics), the others are more or less clear (like Wuliu texts), but these are still principles, not methods. However they are often misinterpreted as methods.

Neidan texts are written to accompany oral instructions, not to replace them.

BR

 

Perhaps in embracing the principles one bypasses the necessity for the methods you speak of, making it "only necessary to rouse your will and dedicate all your energy."

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Perhaps in embracing the principles one bypasses the necessity for the methods you speak of, making it "only necessary to rouse your will and dedicate all your energy."

How one shall practice what is described in HMJ? Can you tell that? Which steps one needs to perform, in which sequence?

BR

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How one shall practice what is described in HMJ? Can you tell that? Which steps one needs to perform, in which sequence?

BR

 

You have some definition of "steps" which I don't have the vocabulary for. Were I to know your vocabulary of these "steps" perhaps I will be able to find their reference in the text.

 

Or perhaps the steps are simply stages one passes through while following the guidance on "general principles" in the text, laid out and done intentionally following someone who realized them through the process of following the guidance and wisdom in Huiming Jing.

 

Liu Huayang says that what is written there is enough to know about the path to "Sarira," and the rest is a matter of will and dedication in following it. While I may not have the will and dedication required to follow the path to every stage, I believe he means what this says.

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There is no difference between the understanding of ‘celestial immortality’ in Wuliupai and other schools of neidan. And ‘a lot of meditation’ is not a right way to achieve it.

BR

 

thank you Alchemist,

 

Not to be pressing, but could you at least offer some reasoning? Or why meditation is insufficient.

 

Lao Tzu says, give up book learning, as if there are no methods and following nature and feeding from the source is an ultimate path to the highest peaks.

 

Also, not to say the website is authentic but here is what they say and it would seem to be congruent with the Wang Liping school except they also teach the importance of spreading the teachings of the way to common people while training.

 

"Therefore there remains the possibility of realization of the highest stage which is possible on Earth according to alchemy - the transformation of this body in the body of light. This is the most difficult task because it requires about 9 -10 years of immobility. It should be provided either by faithful pupils and adherents, The Teacher, or by concealment by having immured in a cave according to certain rules."

 

P.S.

"I will try to post an appropriate translation a bit later."

where do you post these translations? is there a website i am not familiar with?

Edited by MooNiNite

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You have some definition of "steps" which I don't have the vocabulary for. Were I to know your vocabulary of these "steps" perhaps I will be able to find their reference in the text.

 

Or perhaps the steps are simply stages one passes through while following the guidance on "general principles" in the text, laid out and done intentionally following someone who realized them through the process of following the guidance and wisdom in Huiming Jing.

 

Liu Huayang says that what is written there is enough to know about the path to "Sarira," and the rest is a matter of will and dedication in following it. While I may not have the will and dedication required to follow the path to every stage, I believe he means what this says.

I mean, which particular actions one needs to do?

If you want to put up a picture (assuming you already have one), you:

1) choose a place on the wall

2) find a nail and a hammer

3) nail the picture using the tools from step 2) to the place from step 1)

If you want to achieve something more complex, usually there are more actions and they are harder to perform.

Now, what do you need to do if you want to achieve Sarira?

BR

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Lao Tzu says, give up book learning, as if there are no methods and following nature and feeding from the source is an ultimate path to the highest peaks.

I don’t recommend you to trust the translations of Dao De Jing too much. This text is very hard to translate.

 

 

"Therefore there remains the possibility of realization of the highest stage which is possible on Earth according to alchemy - the transformation of this body in the body of light. This is the most difficult task because it requires about 9 -10 years of immobility. It should be provided either by faithful pupils and adherents, The Teacher, or by concealment by having immured in a cave according to certain rules."

That’s right. But what is described there is the last stage (i.e. you need to pass many others first). This practice requires that Xing and Ming are already united. And that is not meditation (while it may look like that), which is practiced when Xing and Ming are divided.

 

"I will try to post an appropriate translation a bit later."

where do you post these translations? is there a website i am not familiar with?

I will post it on this forum.

BR

Edited by alchemist
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Opendao,

 

two more questions for you and I hope you will address them without evasion or subterfuge.

 

1.) How many students of the Wuliupai and Yuxianpai have achieved the "immortal body of light" (reference from your own website /http://www.northerndao.org/neidan/ : "This school has preserved an ancient science how to transform a human body into an immortal body of light.") in the last 50 or 100 years? You have said that both of your schools preserve the records of highly achieved practitioners.

 

What are their names and biographies - when, how and under what cirumstances did they achieve immortality?

 

If you provide the names and biographical data, then I will try through my contacts in China to verify your information.

 

 

2.) How many of your Russian and Canadian fellow-students, who were bald or lost teeth, were able to regrow their hair and teeth as a side-effect of the practices taught in the Wuliupai and Yuxianpai? Have you at least met such people in China?

 

Very simple questions. Can you answer them?

 

An Yongle

Edited by 安永樂
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Though you asked opendao, I can answer both questions.

1.) How many students of the Wuliupai and Yuxianpai have achieved the "immortal body of light" (reference from your own website /http://www.northerndao.org/neidan/ : "This school has preserved an ancient science how to transform a human body into an immortal body of light.") in the last 50 or 100 years? You have said that both of your schools preserve the records of highly achieved practitioners.

What are their names and biographies - when, how and under what cirumstances did they achieve immortality?

If you provide the names and biographical data, then I will try through my contacts in China to verify your information.

First of all, no neidan school makes the information like this public. If you really have the contacts in China who can verify this kind of information, they will tell you the same.

Generally there are examples of this, but the actual number and (especially) the names and biographies are restricted information.

2.) How many of your Russian and Canadian fellow-students, who were bald or lost teeth, were able to regrow their hair and teeth as a side-effect of the practices taught in the Wuliupai and Yuxianpai? Have you at least met such people in China?

I haven’t seen an example of this in Russia (particularly because I don’t have a habit to watch someone’s teeth), but I have seen one in China, more or less accidentally. So I can confirm that this actually happens.

BR

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Hello BR,

 

Can you explain how is it possible for someone to regrow teeth and hair, in general? The basic theory behind it.

 

Is it a result of long term practice, or something that can be achieved within a year?

 

Sincerely,

Demetrios

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Hello BR,

 

Can you explain how is it possible for someone to regrow teeth and hair, in general? The basic theory behind it.

 

Is it a result of long term practice, or something that can be achieved within a year?

 

Sincerely,

Demetrios

Hi Demetrios,

Ah, BR is for "best regards" :) It's not my initials.

The basic theory is as follows. A man/woman has a limited amount of yuan qi/yuan jing (also ming), which he/she constantly spends on the vital functions. Once the ming is over, he/she dies. Teeth and hair are related to ming, so when ming is filled up again, teeth and hair regrows.

BR

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Hello Al (sorry for the mistake),

 

Thank you for the clarification. I sent you a PM.

 

Sincerely,

Demetrios

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Hello BR,

 

Can you explain how is it possible for someone to regrow teeth and hair, in general? The basic theory behind it.

 

Is it a result of long term practice, or something that can be achieved within a year?

 

Sincerely,

Demetrios

 

Also in the pituitary gland there is produced a hormone called Human Growth Hormone that is usually produced until 25 years of age.

And also the pituitary-gonad axis links the pituitary gland production with the testes production of Testosterone.

both hormones are considered "youth hormones" and some [rich] people inject them as an external treatment, other [poor] people cultivate them through meditation.

to quote someone well known:

 

meditation everyday... yes... everyday meditation

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This practice requires that Xing and Ming are already united. And that is not meditation (while it may look like that), which is practiced when Xing and Ming are divided.

 

Ah OK this makes sense. My terminology is different, by combining Xing and MIng you are only referring to earth immortal. .

 

"It should be provided either by faithful pupils and adherents, The Teacher, or by concealment by having immured in a cave according to certain rules."

 

Do you understand this part, How can pupils and adherents help this stage? Maybe i misunderstand, but it almost sounds like the pupils are meditating for the master.

Edited by MooNiNite

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Does anybody understand what is meant by a spiritual immortal doing spiritual work?

 

"spiritual body is then able to perform the execution of spiritual work"

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Ah OK this makes sense. My terminology is different, by combining Xing and MIng you are only referring to earth immortal. .

Yes, that is dixian (earth immortal) stage.

"It should be provided either by faithful pupils and adherents, The Teacher, or by concealment by having immured in a cave according to certain rules."

 

Do you understand this part, How can pupils and adherents help this stage? Maybe i misunderstand, but it almost sounds like the pupils are meditating for the master.

No, they are creating the right conditions for the Teacher's practice.

BR

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Does anybody understand what is meant by a spiritual immortal doing spiritual work?

 

"spiritual body is then able to perform the execution of spiritual work"

Generally, yangshen travels across the universe on this stage.

BR

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Hi Alchemist,

 

Can you explain what and when is stage of Святой архат?

 

Regards

Edited by LaoZiDao

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Hi Alchemist,

 

Can you explain what and when is stage of Святой архат?

 

Regards

This is a Buddhist term, so I do not recommend to use it when describing the stages of immortality in neidan. I know it is used sometimes, but still it is better to use well-known Daoist stages.

BR

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Ah yes ok, as I am not speaking Russian, can you tell me the equivalent in Daoist terms?

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