An Experiment in Buddhist Discussion

[C T]

Ah but from where and how does one derive motivation?

I think we can derive motivation from many sources. Being able to discern if the source(s) is good/helpful vs harmful will go towards generating the right motivation, i believe.

 

What drives one to act, either considerately or insensitively? Sometimes insensitivity does not necessarily arise from ignorance. Some people do it out of being intentionally spiteful, out of habit, or out of fear. They often know the stress this can cause in self and others, yet cannot help themselves. Some people know they have to change, but do not know how, so they hurt others to express their own helpless state, because thats the only way they know how to ask for help. I used to pass hasty judgements on such behaviour with my book of labels, but i realise now that if effort is made to understand the deeper motives, then we can gradually learn to replace judgement with sincere empathy.

 

How do you derive motivation as per your spiritual work?

[GrandmasterP]

"I think we can derive motivation from many sources. "

Yes, you are right.

[C T]

a little window into 'motivation'. its sad and inspiring at the same time....

 

http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/magazine/ngm-dillie-deer?source=relatedvideo

[steve]

That'd be the Rinzai zen sect

Soto zen sect discuss koans much as we'd chat about the weather.

Horses for courses really, we can do as we choose and discuss as we wish.

Much meaningful benefit or breakthrough chatting about koans?

No judgement or preconception here, I'm genuinely interested and inexperienced.

I certainly learn from discussion but my real insights and breakthroughs seem to come from personal investigation or out of the blue, without warning or discernible source.

[steve]

I think we can derive motivation from many sources. Being able to discern if the source(s) is good/helpful vs harmful will go towards generating the right motivation, i believe.

 

What drives one to act, either considerately or insensitively? Sometimes insensitivity does not necessarily arise from ignorance. Some people do it out of being intentionally spiteful, out of habit, or out of fear. They often know the stress this can cause in self and others, yet cannot help themselves. Some people know they have to change, but do not know how, so they hurt others to express their own helpless state, because thats the only way they know how to ask for help. I used to pass hasty judgements on such behaviour with my book of labels, but i realise now that if effort is made to understand the deeper motives, then we can gradually learn to replace judgement with sincere empathy.

As so often happens, I'll state what you already know and have left unsaid - for effect.

From the perspective of the three poisons, how is this not ignorance?

 

Duh... broke my own rule #2...

Edited March 24, 2014 by steve

[C T]

As so often happens, I'll state what you already know and have left unsaid - for effect.

From the perspective of the three poisons, how is this not ignorance?

 

 

I think it only appears like ignorance when we temporarily forget that fundamentally all beings want to avoid suffering. i do not accept this deep desire for happiness is rooted in ignorance. Maybe the way its expressed, the adornments, may appear tainted, but the fundamental essence from where such an urge springs from is always pure. As we develop more wisdom and clarity, the purer the displays become.

Edited March 24, 2014 by C T

[steve]

Sometimes insensitivity does not necessarily arise from ignorance. Some people do it out of being intentionally spiteful, out of habit, or out of fear.

This is what I was referring to more specifically.

Being spiteful, habitual insensitivity, and fear all arise from ignorance, IMO.

 

 

 

"I think it only appears like ignorance when we temporarily forget that fundamentally all beings want to avoid suffering. i do not accept this deep desire for happiness is rooted in ignorance."

The deep desire for happiness is not rooted in ignorance but I do believe that this desire and fundamental ignorance can and do exist in us simultaneously. Otherwise there would be no ignorance.

 

Edited March 24, 2014 by steve

[GrandmasterP]

Much meaningful benefit or breakthrough chatting about koans?

No judgement or preconception here, I'm genuinely interested and inexperienced.

I certainly learn from discussion but my real insights and breakthroughs seem to come from personal investigation or out of the blue, without warning or discernible source.

There's a Japanese zen sect that majors on 'sudden breakthrough' too but I have forgotten what it's called.

They have as many, or more; 'denominations' in Buddhism as do the various brands of Christians.

Each sect has its own means and methods.

Maybe that's a good thing cos 'one size does not fit all' and people have different interests, abilities and tastes.

Open mindfulness is happy mindfulness so whatever works for someone is what works for them.

All success to your cultivation.

I like to lurk on the 'academic discussion' thread on DW sometimes.

Barely understand a word on there that's posted but it's interesting and humbling to see just how many 'experts' that there are out there.

'Beginner's Mind' here and that suits me because I am a profoundly lazy person.

Edited March 24, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[C T]

 

This is what I was referring to more specifically.

Being spiteful, habitual insensitivity, and fear all arise from ignorance, IMO.

 

 

 

The deep desire for happiness is not rooted in ignorance but I do believe that this desire and fundamental ignorance can and do exist in us simultaneously. Otherwise there would be no ignorance.

You may have your reasons for asserting fundamental ignorance, but from what i understand, ignorance is not fundamental, as in, primordially, there is no such state as ignorance. It has to do with expression ~ sometimes a habitually unpleasant person can express the most profound kindness, and vice versa. I could be wrong, but ignorance stems from accumulated habits and tendencies. Those who have the desire to work on transforming their habits and tendencies, from the Vajrayana perspective, usually begin by first gaining some understanding about the Five Dhyani Buddhas (the 5 Buddha Families):

 

General overview: http://viewonbuddhism.org/5_dhyani_buddhas.html

 

General explanation: http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1658

 

Detailed article: http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/tantra/level2_basic_theory/buddha_family_traits.html

 

 

the above links to be scanned only when you have the time. Promise i will try not to turn this into another drawn-out thingy. hehe... you know what i mean.

[Brian]

Good idea. How about for starters...... " What was your face before your parents were born?"

Define "face."

[Apech]

You may have your reasons for asserting fundamental ignorance, but from what i understand, ignorance is not fundamental, as in, primordially, there is no such state as ignorance. It has to do with expression ~ sometimes a habitually unpleasant person can express the most profound kindness, and vice versa. I could be wrong, but ignorance stems from accumulated habits and tendencies. Those who have the desire to work on transforming their habits and tendencies, from the Vajrayana perspective, usually begin by first gaining some understanding about the Five Dhyani Buddhas (the 5 Buddha Families):

 

General overview: http://viewonbuddhism.org/5_dhyani_buddhas.html

 

General explanation: http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1658

 

Detailed article: http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/tantra/level2_basic_theory/buddha_family_traits.html

 

 

the above links to be scanned only when you have the time. Promise i will try not to turn this into another drawn-out thingy. hehe... you know what i mean.

 

 

I thought we were having a link/quotes ban on this thread

 

By ignorance I mean the ignorance of the true nature of things ... as in avidhya ... I don't mean ignorance is the sense of not knowing what the capital of Venezuela is. If we can see the nature of things (or perhaps of the Mind) then we have no issue with good or bad motivation. So I see motivation as an aspect of attraction or aversion ... do you like/want to do this thing or do you draw back from it, if you see what I mean.

[steve]

 

This is what I was referring to more specifically.

Being spiteful, habitual insensitivity, and fear all arise from ignorance, IMO.

 

 

 

The deep desire for happiness is not rooted in ignorance but I do believe that this desire and fundamental ignorance can and do exist in us simultaneously. Otherwise there would be no ignorance.

 

 

You may have your reasons for asserting fundamental ignorance, but from what i understand, ignorance is not fundamental, as in, primordially, there is no such state as ignorance. It has to do with expression ~ sometimes a habitually unpleasant person can express the most profound kindness, and vice versa. I could be wrong, but ignorance stems from accumulated habits and tendencies.

 

Oops... You're not wrong, I mis-posted. I meant to write - The deep desire for happiness is not rooted in ignorance but I do believe that this fundamental desire and ignorance can and do exist in us simultaneously. Otherwise there would be no ignorance.

 

I do not believe, experience, or posit that there is any such thing as fundamental ignorance.

As you say, it is a consequence of conditioning.

 

Thanks for the links - I'll check them out.

[C T]

I thought we were having a link/quotes ban on this thread

 

By ignorance I mean the ignorance of the true nature of things ... as in avidhya ... I don't mean ignorance is the sense of not knowing what the capital of Venezuela is. If we can see the nature of things (or perhaps of the Mind) then we have no issue with good or bad motivation. So I see motivation as an aspect of attraction or aversion ... do you like/want to do this thing or do you draw back from it, if you see what I mean.

ok sorry for posting links. Could have worded the context from my own interpretation, but was afraid that would put readers off. With the links, readers can choose whether to have a peep or not. Thats sort of cleaner and simpler.

 

I think we are referring to same ignorance. Are you also saying that ignorance (avidya) is one's fundamental state? How this is viewed depends from which vehicle one would like to use as an approach. In Mahayana (specifically Vajrayana) students are advised to view all mental/emotional arisings as expressions of wisdom energy. Its a direct approach which do not put emphasis on analysing and watching out for good and not good perceptions and reactions.

 

The path takes the student right to the source of all energetic displays, and are advised not to view these as either good or bad, instead, to try to view all displays from a place of equanimity. From the links provided, it clearly explains how we can learn to identify the major traits that we might consider negative in us and needs work, and then align these with a particular deity (yidam) so that specific antidotes are chosen and applied to transform the mind to the extent that what is deemed 'negative' can actually be used to gain greater wisdom and clarity. From this angle, motivation cannot hinge on grasping and aversion.

 

In daily life, we either remember to apply pure perception to view arisings as one single wisdom display, or we forget, which immediately causes the onset of mundane view, thereby allowing the manifestation and proliferation of grasping and aversion, leading to dualistic thinking, leading to delusions, etc.. creating that chain effect. If at the point of seeing the arising of, for example anger, we remember "ah, its a manifestation of wisdom energy", then this will immediately diffuse any possibility for the anger to catch fire and spread, moreover, not only can we prevent the negative impact, we can actually use the pure energy at the basis as a means to gain greater clarity. This effectively is a direct, alchemically induced, immediate transformation which takes place.

 

In essence, this i think is why Vajrayana is called the direct path. Its fast, but the inherent risks are much greater, thats why students who take it up have to work in accordance with samayas and so on.

 

In summary, we could say that in the moment of remembering, there is the arising of vidya, and in the moment of forgetting, there is the arising of avidya. With right motivation, there is greater likelihood for sustaining the arising of vidya.

[steve]

I don't think that last post was 50 words or less...

 

A friend, adept at lucid dreaming told me of his experience last night.

While "in" the night-time dream, he could feel strong emotional attachment.

When becoming lucid, the attachment vanished and he could watch the display with equanimity.

I think this is analogous to becoming 'lucid' as we observe our day-time 'dream' from the perspective of the Nature of Mind.

[Simple_Jack]

...(specifically Vajrayana) students are advised to view all mental/emotional arisings as expressions of wisdom energy. Its a direct approach which do not put emphasis on analysing and watching out for good and not good perceptions and reactions.

 

Just to add that generally, in Vajrayana, this is the training which proceeds direct introduction to the nature of mind as an empty clarity.

[Apech]

ok sorry for posting links. Could have worded the context from my own interpretation, but was afraid that would put readers off. With the links, readers can choose whether to have a peep or not. Thats sort of cleaner and simpler.

 

I think we are referring to same ignorance. Are you also saying that ignorance (avidya) is one's fundamental state? How this is viewed depends from which vehicle one would like to use as an approach. In Mahayana (specifically Vajrayana) students are advised to view all mental/emotional arisings as expressions of wisdom energy. Its a direct approach which do not put emphasis on analysing and watching out for good and not good perceptions and reactions.

No I was answering your original question which was "What is the primary factor in determining whether one's experience is conditioned by frustration or by joyful equanimity?"

 

I read somewhere (I think it was John Peacock) that avidya means not only ignorance but with a sense of wilful not wanting to know. So you could add stubbornness and a kind of aversion to seeing truth and that would fit in with my thoughts on ignorance. It's the first step in Dependent origination which is the condition for samsara ... the very essence of frustration I think.

 

 

The path takes the student right to the source of all energetic displays, and are advised not to view these as either good or bad, instead, to try to view all displays from a place of equanimity. From the links provided, it clearly explains how we can learn to identify the major traits that we might consider negative in us and needs work, and then align these with a particular deity (yidam) so that specific antidotes are chosen and applied to transform the mind to the extent that what is deemed 'negative' can actually be used to gain greater wisdom and clarity. From this angle, motivation cannot hinge on grasping and aversion.

 

In daily life, we either remember to apply pure perception to view arisings as one single wisdom display, or we forget, which immediately causes the onset of mundane view, thereby allowing the manifestation and proliferation of grasping and aversion, leading to dualistic thinking, leading to delusions, etc.. creating that chain effect. If at the point of seeing the arising of, for example anger, we remember "ah, its a manifestation of wisdom energy", then this will immediately diffuse any possibility for the anger to catch fire and spread, moreover, not only can we prevent the negative impact, we can actually use the pure energy at the basis as a means to gain greater clarity. This effectively is a direct, alchemically induced, immediate transformation which takes place.

 

In essence, this i think is why Vajrayana is called the direct path. Its fast, but the inherent risks are much greater, thats why students who take it up have to work in accordance with samayas and so on.

 

In summary, we could say that in the moment of remembering, there is the arising of vidya, and in the moment of forgetting, there is the arising of avidya. With right motivation, there is greater likelihood for sustaining the arising of vidya.

 

I agree basically with what you are saying about the vajrayana approach.

[Apech]

I don't think that last post was 50 words or less...

 

A friend, adept at lucid dreaming told me of his experience last night.

While "in" the night-time dream, he could feel strong emotional attachment.

When becoming lucid, the attachment vanished and he could watch the display with equanimity.

I think this is analogous to becoming 'lucid' as we observe our day-time 'dream' from the perspective of the Nature of Mind.

 

 

That's a nice analogy. I would say when he was doing normal dreaming he was more ignorant than when lucid.

[GrandmasterP]

Define "face."

 

 

" Brian"

 

Hope that helps.

[steve]

That's a nice analogy. I would say when he was doing normal dreaming he was more ignorant than when lucid.

I think I understand your point - we are more ignorant when in night-time dream as compared to night-time lucidity and less ignorant during the day-time dream as compared to day-time lucidity. Is that accurate?

[Apech]

I think I understand your point - we are more ignorant when in night-time dream as compared to night-time lucidity and less ignorant during the day-time dream as compared to day-time lucidity. Is that accurate?

 

 

I think probably all mental states (apart from enlightenment) are ignorant to some extent. But when dreaming and being bound up in emotional attachments you are more ignorant than when lucid and being able to see them for what they are. If in the day time you are completely absorbed in samsara in that you completely invest in your own appetite for gratification and attempts at personal security, then this is more ignorant than the examined life where you realise how caught up you are and perhaps gain some freedom from it. These a relative states compared to real liberation of course.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Apech

[steve]

Thanks for the clarification, I was reading more into your words perhaps than you intended.

I agree, and in my own life and practice, I try to reduce it further.

So that in each and every moment, when I am thinking ("lost" in thought), I am in ignorance.

Even if thinking about Dharma!

Although better to think about Dharma and other matters supportive of positive karmic traces than most other topics until such time as I can stabilize in lucidity in each and every moment...

When there is simply the observation of thought forming, dwelling, and liberating and all that occurs in between, there is lucidity.

And it's not quite so cut and dry as there are so many subtle layers of mental/emotional occurrence/disturbance.

The process of refining seems infinite - but that's probably just my inexperience talking.

 

Hmmm, at the risk of starting another silly debate on the meaning of rigpa, I wonder (for those fluent in Tibetan) if lucidity would be a reasonable alternative for translation. From the Latin lucidus - light, clear, bright...

[9th]

Hmmm, at the risk of starting another silly debate on the meaning of rigpa, I wonder (for those fluent in Tibetan) if lucidity would be a reasonable alternative for translation. From the Latin lucidus - light, clear, bright...

 

[GrandmasterP]

How are those cartoons to do with Buddhist discussion please?

[Anderson]

Good idea. How about for starters...... " What was your face before your parents were born?"

 

 

The fact this question points at only became clear to me after i became more familiar with the teachings on primordial state of CNNr.Since primordial state goes beyond the four conceptual extremes and is before anything else it fits perfectly with the ultimate meaning of the state one discovers by using questions as the one above.

[Yascra]

I don't think that last post was 50 words or less...

 

A friend, adept at lucid dreaming told me of his experience last night.

While "in" the night-time dream, he could feel strong emotional attachment.

When becoming lucid, the attachment vanished and he could watch the display with equanimity.

I think this is analogous to becoming 'lucid' as we observe our day-time 'dream' from the perspective of the Nature of Mind.

 

How do you become lucid and are there further benefits of it?

Are you sure our Nature of Mind is just like dreaming?