Kajenx

Jhana in Taoism?

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From Dzog Chen and Zen, pg.16 by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu:

 

A human being has his limits. And thus in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits.

 

True words.

 

But, is it not helpful realize what one truly is, and hence drop all such limits of mind...

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I would agree, but one must realize that "meditating" does not mean "thinking about and reflecting". Meditating means "residing in and realizing". Best wishes.

 

I don't necessarily mean to assert that it is, is not, both, neither. All of these are yet more limitations, extremes actually, but I concur that we need to drop all limitations of mind, especially, self-imposed limitations.

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I don't necessarily mean to assert that it is, is not, both, neither. All of these are yet more limitations, extremes actually, but I concur that we need to drop all limitations of mind, especially, self-imposed limitations.

 

Taking this into consideration, we should then reflect on how we are skewed towards extremes, in every moment of our day-to-day experiences. In subtle and gross states of experience and manifestations of thoughts, in the meditative and post-meditative periods, deep dreamless sleep and dream states, etc.; whether we stray towards reification and depreciation, affirmation and rejection, craving and aversion, etc.

Edited by Simple_Jack

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Taking this into consideration, we should then reflect on how we are skewed towards extremes, in every moment of our day-to-day experiences. In subtle and gross states of experience and manifestations of thoughts, in the meditative and post-meditative periods, deep dreamless sleep and dream states, etc.; whether we stray towards reification and depreciation, affirmation and rejection, craving and aversion, etc.

 

...How we bind ourselves in our own self-made limitations.

Edited by Simple_Jack
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You know if you study Buddhism you realize that Bodhisattva and Buddhas show up in various religions, groups of people, and teach them things that will help them get rid of suffering. Depends on the understanding of people. If certain group could only deal with fire gods, a Bodhisattva or Buddha may manifest as a fire god to teach them. But the thing is not only can Buddhas and Bodhisattva can transform, demons, ghosts, and spirits can manifest and give out deviant teachings.

 

yeah, but the demons will be you - there is no separate selves. I'm talking Tibetan Book of the Dead style. We can channel any personality through the unity-Tao-consciousness...they are all illusions. They are all the self. Realize their nature with the Dharma Eye open, not-doing, not-knowing. The illusion becomes apparent and eventually stops being projected onto reality.

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yeah, but the demons will be you - there is no separate selves. I'm talking Tibetan Book of the Dead style. We can channel any personality through the unity-Tao-consciousness...they are all illusions. They are all the self. Realize their nature with the Dharma Eye open, not-doing, not-knowing. The illusion becomes apparent and eventually stops being projected onto reality.

I think they are actually all 'not-self'. :D

 

Self denotes limitations. Infinite potential and perimeters do not get on too well together. Bound to clash thru all the fluffiness of identification, of labels and conventions. Self and conventions are synonymous. Conventions and labels are synonymous. To drop all labels, one can do well to drop all processes leading to the birth of a self. The birth of self is the birth of duality, of limits. Self is a journey into contractiveness. The real exercise is to head out in the opposite direction, and see where that leads. Some call this exercise 'Invoking Drala'. Interesting concept.

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I think they are actually all 'not-self'. :D

 

Self denotes limitations. Infinite potential and perimeters do not get on too well together. Bound to clash thru all the fluffiness of identification, of labels and conventions. Self and conventions are synonymous. Conventions and labels are synonymous. To drop all labels, one can do well to drop all processes leading to the birth of a self. The birth of self is the birth of duality, of limits. Self is a journey into contractiveness. The real exercise is to head out in the opposite direction, and see where that leads. Some call this exercise 'Invoking Drala'. Interesting concept.

 

they are not-self, yet they are also all-selves...this is the nondualistic view. The combination of all is mind and neti, neti. This is saying that mind is also self, but that self is not mind.

 

This seamlessly combines the Being Bliss Consciousness of Satchitananda with the motion of time. These four things, plus the whatever extra dimensions there are form the All Self.

 

I believe Being is nature, energy, prakriti, the physiological processes of perception. The body (i.e. process) outside of the perciever...as in 'the act of perception'

 

Bliss is the permutations of the perceptions, the internal energy of the percieved, and is thus 'the perceived'

 

Consciousness is of course the perceiver.

 

Mind is time itself...this part I am the least sure about.

 

I could be wrong, but its a neat model

Edited by Songtsan
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Not sure if anyone said it but go look up Samadhi. Jhana is a state you experience in a Samadhi. Samadhi is a mental state in which you have achieved an one point concentration. Usually, you know you are in a state Samadhi because you WILL see the inner light followed by some sort warm sensations. It could be HOT too. This state of concentration is almost like all of your 6 senses ceased to exist and your mind is only left with a pure consciousness.

 

I think you are a novice. Normally with gifted individuals, it takes about 10 years of cultivation to arrive in any sorts of Samadhi. The first stage of Samadhi is usually derived from the mind managed to penetrate the skandha of forms.

 

I would recommend reading on some works by the late master Nan Huai Chin and his well known disciple William Bodri.

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Sure, but prajna is a very important component of the path, which is why the summation for progress on the path is sila, samadhi, prajna; why prajna is an inherent feature of the teachings from the Prajnaparamita Sutras, and why it's the 6th paramita of the bodhisattva's practice.

I agree. What is the point to be enlightened in some degrees if the mind can not acquire the various transcendental wisdom? To acquire knowledge and the sense of knowing beyond time and space. Enlightenment isn't just about having to experience various state of mental bliss....because as the higher state of Samadhi the mind is experiencing, the less and less blissful one would feel and experience....

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Not sure if anyone said it but go look up Samadhi. Jhana is a state you experience in a Samadhi. Samadhi is a mental state in which you have achieved an one point concentration. Usually, you know you are in a state Samadhi because you WILL see the inner light followed by some sort warm sensations. It could be HOT too. This state of concentration is almost like all of your 6 senses ceased to exist and your mind is only left with a pure consciousness.

 

I think you are a novice. Normally with gifted individuals, it takes about 10 years of cultivation to arrive in any sorts of Samadhi. The first stage of Samadhi is usually derived from the mind managed to penetrate the skandha of forms.

 

I would recommend reading on some works by the late master Nan Huai Chin and his well known disciple William Bodri.

 

Are you able to explain to me what you mean by inner light?

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Are you able to explain to me what you mean by inner light?

Third eye seeing the inner light. Light perceivable by the third eye because your Chi channels have been opened, this included your center channel. Master Nan on several occasions stated that you aren't enlightened or your chi channels have not been opened if you don't see the inner light in your meditation. This light is also called the nimatta. A sign that tells you are in a Samadhi...

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Third eye seeing the inner light. Light perceivable by the third eye because your Chi channels have been opened, this included your center channel. Master Nan on several occasions stated that you aren't enlightened or your chi channels have not been opened if you don't see the inner light in your meditation. This light is also called the nimatta. A sign that tells you are in a Samadhi...

 

Thank you.

 

This is obviously different from what the Buddhists refer to as the 'Clear Light'.

 

The inner light seems to be more light a psychic vision?

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Thank you.

 

This is obviously different from what the Buddhists refer to as the 'Clear Light'.

 

The inner light seems to be more light a psychic vision?

I don't know. :) I am describing the phenomenas you experienced as you are entering into a samadhi. They are real as you experience them and not real because they are less and less powerful as higher the samadhi state you could enter. I believe the concept the Clear Light Mind is a metaphorical concept??? Or is it not?

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Not sure if anyone said it but go look up Samadhi. Jhana is a state you experience in a Samadhi. Samadhi is a mental state in which you have achieved an one point concentration. Usually, you know you are in a state Samadhi because you WILL see the inner light followed by some sort warm sensations. It could be HOT too. This state of concentration is almost like all of your 6 senses ceased to exist and your mind is only left with a pure consciousness.

 

I think you are a novice. Normally with gifted individuals, it takes about 10 years of cultivation to arrive in any sorts of Samadhi. The first stage of Samadhi is usually derived from the mind managed to penetrate the skandha of forms.

 

I would recommend reading on some works by the late master Nan Huai Chin and his well known disciple William Bodri.

This kind of thing confused me quite a bit when I first started having Jhanic experiences during meditation, soI'd just like to point out that I disagree completely - just for the sake of anyone else reading who might be confused. I have never seen any lights during meditation, and the buddha never mentioned seeing lights during jhana. This was a concept derived from medieval manuscripts. Some people DO see lights, so don't feel off track if you do, but more important are the Jhana factors described in the suttas. It will be very obvious to anyone who enters jhana that they are in altered states of mind. I've recently gotten to the 5th jhana, and here you do begin to lose track of you body a bit, but the first three jhanas involve physical sensations, so I'm not sure how you could say samadhi is developed only when you see a light and stop physical sensations. The most important factor in my experience is that samadhi is developed when a very clear shift happens and you notice the awareness rests easily on a single object. This is often translated as "one pointedness", but a better translation is "unification of the mind". If you can keep the mind from wandering for 30 breaths or so, you will be able to experience jhana. This debate is all over the internet and I will concede that my experiences don't last for very long, but they are consistent and they match the suttas. You don't have to wait 10 years for jhana, you can start now, and in 10 years you'll be a real master. :)

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This kind of thing confused me quite a bit when I first started having Jhanic experiences during meditation, soI'd just like to point out that I disagree completely - just for the sake of anyone else reading who might be confused. I have never seen any lights during meditation, and the buddha never mentioned seeing lights during jhana. This was a concept derived from medieval manuscripts. Some people DO see lights, so don't feel off track if you do, but more important are the Jhana factors described in the suttas. It will be very obvious to anyone who enters jhana that they are in altered states of mind. I've recently gotten to the 5th jhana, and here you do begin to lose track of you body a bit, but the first three jhanas involve physical sensations, so I'm not sure how you could say samadhi is developed only when you see a light and stop physical sensations. The most important factor in my experience is that samadhi is developed when a very clear shift happens and you notice the awareness rests easily on a single object. This is often translated as "one pointedness", but a better translation is "unification of the mind". If you can keep the mind from wandering for 30 breaths or so, you will be able to experience jhana. This debate is all over the internet and I will concede that my experiences don't last for very long, but they are consistent and they match the suttas. You don't have to wait 10 years for jhana, you can start now, and in 10 years you'll be a real master. :)

I don't know what to tell you....from my own experiences as well as based on reading I did, this inner illuminations and light will appear "naturally." Go read this especially the last section:

 

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebmed020.htm

 

And here and pay attention to White Skeleton Mediation and Color Kasina mediation. Both methods emphasize seeing the light in various colors.

 

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/nibbana1.pdf

 

If you have the chance, go read up on Master Nan works. It took me 10 years to find the Dharma Gate (when my mind has penetrated the first skandha of form) on my own, I was only 18. It resulted in my kundalini energy rising. Yeah, light and HOT, firing burning HOT energy circulated my body. No guessing. No metaphorical descriptions. I guess if you were a Buddha in your past life at one point and have tons of merits, you may reach nirvana in 10 years. :)

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I believe you can experience nimittas without your channels being open in the slightest.

 

One doesn't have to see light to experience light.

Truth...the chi can bypass certain channels and to connect with another. However, the degree of Samadhi may not be as strong or concentrated. The truth is that I only experience one of those really, really deep Samadhi once in a while...:)

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Or reach out to a powerful qigong master once in a while...

I hope you are joking because there is no reason why any accomplished chi gong masters would take on ANY pupils. Considering such a meeting a karmic reward. :) One way you can get into contact with such masters.....is through dreams. After all, is it not that Taoist immortals live in Heaven? When your time is ripened, don't be surprised to see such masters appearing in your dreams. :) Just saying...you know. :)

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Some accomplished chi gong masters walk the earth and others are in the higher levels.

 

;)

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I don't know what to tell you....from my own experiences as well as based on reading I did, this inner illuminations and light will appear "naturally." Go read this especially the last section:

 

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebmed020.htm

 

And here and pay attention to White Skeleton Mediation and Color Kasina mediation. Both methods emphasize seeing the light in various colors.

 

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/nibbana1.pdf

 

If you have the chance, go read up on Master Nan works. It took me 10 years to find the Dharma Gate (when my mind has penetrated the first skandha of form) on my own, I was only 18. It resulted in my kundalini energy rising. Yeah, light and HOT, firing burning HOT energy circulated my body. No guessing. No metaphorical descriptions. I guess if you were a Buddha in your past life at one point and have tons of merits, you may reach nirvana in 10 years. :)

I think, actually, this debate could be related to what kind of meditation you are doing, as well. Perhaps breath meditation will manifest some kind of light and a one-pointed mind, whereas a meditation on open awareness will yeild a unified and open mind and no nimita. I know jhana is starting when I begin to feel a rise of piti, and this mostly happens suddenly and without expectation. I would happily call this some other mental state, but it's usually followed by a general releasing of top layers and a cooling phase that leads to a very powerful equanimity. I'm also willing to conceed that these jhanas are actually the "vipassana jhanas", but those are considered the same deal for some teachers. I think the debate is kind of silly, TBH, because it's probably all the same layers of mind being accessed at different levels of concentration. Seeing a nimita could be a prerequesite for a complete and powerful absorption, but the buddha said to be mindful of each jhanic state while traveling through them, so if you can't be thoughtful of what you're experiencing, then it's just a fun ride and you'll have to gain insight from reflection later. (Not that i'm criticising mystical states. They are very healing in their powerful forms.) ---please excuse my spelling/typing. I'm on a tablet right now lol

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May I suggest kjenx that you let go and be free from Buddhist or Taoist or any written material or system or try to conceptualize your experience, Let it be. You may find in these traditions they may be pointing to one of your experience but only pointing.

 

It is you that experiences. Get rid of the crap so you can continue or it may stunt your own personal growth and ability to achieve higher levels that need no verification from any system. Good Luck, Truth is universal and knows no borders. Doing is knowing, knowing is doing.

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