How to find a Vajrayana teacher

[BaguaKicksAss]

did a search for Vajrayana and the name of my city, 464000 hits!

[Yascra]

 

I have seen quite a few bad things happen with folks who are completely on their own in practice. Not all of course, but far too many. Well that and the progress doesn't work as well from what I have also seen. (I mean all practices not just Vajrayana).

Oh, please don't get me wrong about that, I absolutely agree with you that finding a good teacher offers great possibilities, and will in many cases be necessary to set up a good practice. In the end an experienced person offers you .. experience, which you don't have as a beginner.

 

Unfortunately my experience is that Vajrayana emphasizes relying on BAD teachers OVER development of own wisdom, and that's were I see the problem. Especially in a system in which most of the persons who have authorization to teach lack what a teacher needs most to be able to teach - experience in practice. For me that would at least include experiences with more than one religious system, which is a requirement most of the Tibetan teachers will definitely NOT fulfill - but of course those are my special needs.

Anyway - my experience is that a bad teacher can lead you far, FAR astray, and as you trust in him or her, maybe more than you would trust yourself, because you believe in his or her experience, which might turn out to be a wrong belief, that might end up in a catastrophe.

 

I've met good guys - but unfortunately I've seen bad guys in this field as well, although most of the latter from sufficient distance. You don't want an arrogant and selfish blind person to lead you - it might end up in hell for both of you, and though his or her stay will be longer than yours, positive it might not be for you as well.

There are people outside who teach not to meditate, there are even people outside, although that's not my experience with Vajrayana, but other bad teachers, who would advise you to learn killing sentient beings, in the name of training to "get rid of duality".

Do you know this saying that one moment of anger might destroy the merit of aeons? Well, guess what might come out of holding such errant views for more than just a moment, but from even training this!

 

It can destroy one's path for lives, that's the point.

Unfortunately Vajrayana techniques are in most cases heavy stuff and should not be practiced without guidance. But for god's sake - if you cannot really claim to have the merit to have GOOD guidance on this way, then use your brain and take a road that might be slower, but in which it's not so easy to end up far, far away from the right track.

That might all not be that important if you're cultivating for some form realm attainments. But if it starts to be about enlightenment, one should sometimes really think twice about what might be the best thing to do.

 

So - agree, absolutely. If you find a good teacher, congrats to that, it's a great ressource for staying in the right track, and definitely better than not having one.

But ..

.. if the only choice is a bad teacher, then better rely on common sense.

And that might include .. being honest enough to not practice stuff that's not meant for persons who lack guidance, background knowledge and sometimes maybe even prerequisites.

 

All from the perspective of a student, to make that clear. I'm a beginner in the end .. but examining persons whom one might learn from and verifying criteria for what makes one NOT a good teacher are a field in which I've really been collecting experiences, on my own and from watching others.

Which was exactly why I had a look an Vajrayana, btw - because I thought, hey, they are buddhists, so they should stick to the noble eightfold path and not lie, and if they give authorization - hey cool, they really have a system to make sure you don't end up with a noob claiming to be a master. Well, after some observations I found out that obviously it doesn't work.

Would have been too great, maybe -.-

Edited February 1, 2014 by Yascra

[RongzomFan]

Well, I'd prefer enlightenment instead of some form achievements, but everybody as he or she likes.

 

But just to mention that, Vajrayana is not the only system that offers cultivation leading to rainbow body. It's just that other system might name this outcome differently. So everything fine in the end

 

Rainbow body IS enlightenment (samyaksambuddhahood).

 

Of course Vajrayana is the only system for rainbow body.

[RongzomFan]

Unfortunately my experience is that Vajrayana emphasizes relying on BAD teachers OVER development of own wisdom

 

Who are these bad Vajrayana teachers?

 

Name names.

[RongzomFan]

If you think your teacher is is wrong about your achievement, or is holding you back, then why are they your teacher in the first place? You must not trust them.

 

Are you that guy who said he had obtained rainbow body after only hearing about rainbow body for the first time ever the week earlier?

 

Serious question.

Edited February 2, 2014 by RongzomFan

[Yascra]

 

Who are these bad Vajrayana teachers?

 

Name names.

You mean directly discrediting people, publicly?

No, thanks, too many of those.

But you might right start with most Rinpoches who in some way or another inherited their "title" and haven't even been to retreat for, let's say, six or more years.

 

To be honest, I think you're a believer and simply want to fight for your opinion to be the right one. And guess what.. If you didn't recognize yet what problems this system has, and if you don't want to hear that, that's basically your theme or topic, not mine.

 

If you're sincere then write me a name of s.one, then I may have a look at him (in most cases it will be a male, right?) and tell you what I think about that person.

 

Let's express it the other way round: My personal opinion is that there is not even more than two dozens of persons who can practice Vajrayana without going astray, on this whole planet, let alone teach it, at the least if you keep out knowledge from other system. Not because t's so great, but because it's so easy to go wrong in that systems. Let it be fifty, but that would really be a great guess then, ok?

 

So, just take this number and then count the persons in Vajrayana who are authorized to teach, and you might notice a big discrepancy.

Sure, part of it is just the religious stuff, like you have lots of Christian priests nowadays who can't do anything but cite texts, so you need a low-level person to keep s.thing of the teachings, as no person is available who could really fulfill the requirements. Which is the case for all institutionalized religions, more or less.

Nothing against this principle.

The problem I see there is a pressure to "have a guru", hold a person dear etc... But that's really a waste of time in most cases.

YOU have to have great devotion and talent to use the help of a non-enlightened master to awaken yourself. The scriptures can indeed help with it, sometimes - and if the "guru" is sincere enough to, for example, being aware of the fact that being Tibetan doesn't make you a better buddhist than being a Westerner, there might be a chance it can work.

 

Even if you're just after rainbow body you should at least pick s.one as a master who has some students who already attained that. Otherwise your chances to get help with it are relatively low, I'd say.

I don't say such guys don't exist. But they are definitely the rare kind of, and few will take the time to personally teach you and lead you, for example, in retreat.

 

Anyway, it's not about fighting for me. I'm basically not a religious person, I just make experiences, observe, analyze and draw conclusions. So I'm not gonna discredit particular persons here. In the end they are human beings, too, some of them not being bad guys in general. Part of the problem finally arises out of the situation that there's politics involved which sometimes make people teachers who don't even want that at all.

But, hm, what am I telling you anyway. I think you agreed with BKA that licenses are s.thing you might buy, if you have the money and connections. Being aware of that you should know about at least some of the problems yourself.

 

All the best

Edited February 2, 2014 by Yascra

[Yascra]

 

Rainbow body IS enlightenment (samyaksambuddhahood).

 

Of course Vajrayana is the only system for rainbow body.

Oops.

Didn't read that before, otherwise I wouldn't have made the effort to explain things in the other post.

Find an ENLIGHTENED master.

Ask him or her.

Good luck.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Yascra

[RongzomFan]

You mean directly discrediting people, publicly?

No, thanks, too many of those.

 

Yep, you are making stuff up.

[RongzomFan]

To be honest, I think you're a believer and simply want to fight for your opinion to be the right one. And guess what.. If you didn't recognize yet what problems this system has, and if you don't want to hear that, that's basically your theme or topic, not mine.

 

To he honest, I don't think you know a thing about Tibetan Buddhism.

[RongzomFan]

I think you agreed with BKA that licenses are s.thing you might buy, if you have the money and connections.

 

Yes in Chinese qiqong. Not Tibetan Buddhism.

[Cheshire Cat]

Many vajrayana teachings originated from enlightened beings, the problem is that for some reason, it's not that easy to find people suitable for the actual realization.

Therefore, the transmission should remain pure and unbroken because most of those who transmit cannot realize in the present lives... but when a person with clear eyes will meet the authentic treasures of knowledge, he will see the truth.

 

The intentions of the vajrayana practitioner is to benefit others to the highest extent possible with the present conditions: unless he's a super-practitioner who can speak with dakinis and develop superpowers easily, it's better to rely on a qualified teacher because if he'll teach anyone in the future, he'll teach something that comes from the enlightened masters.

 

Without compassion, one cannot understand those things. And without compassion, one cannot realize the fruits of vajrayana.

 

bye

 

[C T]

Oh, please don't get me wrong about that, I absolutely agree with you that finding a good teacher offers great possibilities, and will in many cases be necessary to set up a good practice. In the end an experienced person offers you .. experience, which you don't have as a beginner.

 

Unfortunately my experience is that Vajrayana emphasizes relying on BAD teachers OVER development of own wisdom, and that's were I see the problem. Especially in a system in which most of the persons who have authorization to teach lack what a teacher needs most to be able to teach - experience in practice. For me that would at least include experiences with more than one religious system, which is a requirement most of the Tibetan teachers will definitely NOT fulfill - but of course those are my special needs.

Anyway - my experience is that a bad teacher can lead you far, FAR astray, and as you trust in him or her, maybe more than you would trust yourself, because you believe in his or her experience, which might turn out to be a wrong belief, that might end up in a catastrophe.

 

I've met good guys - but unfortunately I've seen bad guys in this field as well, although most of the latter from sufficient distance. You don't want an arrogant and selfish blind person to lead you - it might end up in hell for both of you, and though his or her stay will be longer than yours, positive it might not be for you as well.

There are people outside who teach not to meditate, there are even people outside, although that's not my experience with Vajrayana, but other bad teachers, who would advise you to learn killing sentient beings, in the name of training to "get rid of duality".

Do you know this saying that one moment of anger might destroy the merit of aeons? Well, guess what might come out of holding such errant views for more than just a moment, but from even training this!

 

It can destroy one's path for lives, that's the point.

Unfortunately Vajrayana techniques are in most cases heavy stuff and should not be practiced without guidance. But for god's sake - if you cannot really claim to have the merit to have GOOD guidance on this way, then use your brain and take a road that might be slower, but in which it's not so easy to end up far, far away from the right track.

That might all not be that important if you're cultivating for some form realm attainments. But if it starts to be about enlightenment, one should sometimes really think twice about what might be the best thing to do.

 

So - agree, absolutely. If you find a good teacher, congrats to that, it's a great ressource for staying in the right track, and definitely better than not having one.

But ..

.. if the only choice is a bad teacher, then better rely on common sense.

And that might include .. being honest enough to not practice stuff that's not meant for persons who lack guidance, background knowledge and sometimes maybe even prerequisites.

 

All from the perspective of a student, to make that clear. I'm a beginner in the end .. but examining persons whom one might learn from and verifying criteria for what makes one NOT a good teacher are a field in which I've really been collecting experiences, on my own and from watching others.

Which was exactly why I had a look an Vajrayana, btw - because I thought, hey, they are buddhists, so they should stick to the noble eightfold path and not lie, and if they give authorization - hey cool, they really have a system to make sure you don't end up with a noob claiming to be a master. Well, after some observations I found out that obviously it doesn't work.

Would have been too great, maybe -.-

how many bad vajrayana experiences have you had to make such accusatory remarks?

 

Seriously, if you had one, and then went on to another, (and another, perhaps) then it kinda gets curious, dont you think so?

 

On the other hand, if all you had was one unsavoury experience, why do you denigrate the whole tradition as such?

[Yascra]

On the other hand, if all you had was one unsavoury experience, why do you denigrate the whole tradition as such?

Read my postings again. Denigrating the WHOLE tradition AS SUCH is not what I do.

 

I just say that from my experience of this system I estimate that your chances to succeed in it might be extremely low. But if you want to work with that system that's of course not of my business.

 

See it with a blinking eye, though.

But actually the skill to take one's own tradition not too serious is something I largely missed in a system in which secterianism is so present that most of it's teachers actually denigrate other sects just because the lineages split up suchandsuch hundred years ago, instead of seeking possibilities to work together.

Of course a reason for this is that Tibetan buddhism has become largely involved with politics. But actually as a spiritual seeker and spiritual person I don't care so much what reason a tradition finds to drop virtue.. and splitting the sangha in ANY way is definitely not virtuous.

 

Maybe this constant fight between different sects, that in essence, and even concerning their techniques, are more than 80% identical is one of my main points of criticism with this system in general.

 

But I think I'll get out of this discussion. It'll just end up in kind of "religious war", and as I mentioned somewhere else, I'm sick of it. Take it as a hint, and whenever you might yourself wonder about things that might not be okay in large parts of this system, you have the possibility to come back to it, and find that you're not the only one wondering about certain things. I guess if you keep that in mind, then that's a sufficient outcome for this writing here, and if you might not find anything useful in it, maybe somebody else might do so.

 

Yes in Chinese qiqong. Not Tibetan Buddhism.

Well, in Tibetan Buddhism you might even inherit it, so by being a (mostly male) member of a certain family you get this licenses for free, so to speak, as kind of a birthright, and no matter whether spirituality matters to you at ALL, lol

 

Faith is a beautiful thing if you know how to apply it correctly.

 

Think I'll leave it with that. Keep your religious believes as long as you need them. Don't forget to drop them when they've fulfilled their purpose anyway.

 

All the best,

Ith

[C T]

Read my postings again. Denigrating the WHOLE tradition AS SUCH is not what I do.

 

I just say that from my experience of this system I estimate that your chances to succeed in it might be extremely low. But if you want to work with that system that's of course not of my business.

 

See it with a blinking eye, though.

But actually the skill to take one's own tradition not too serious is something I largely missed in a system in which secterianism is so present that most of it's teachers actually denigrate other sects just because the lineages split up suchandsuch hundred years ago, instead of seeking possibilities to work together.

Of course a reason for this is that Tibetan buddhism has become largely involved with politics. But actually as a spiritual seeker and spiritual person I don't care so much what reason a tradition finds to drop virtue.. and splitting the sangha in ANY way is definitely not virtuous.

 

Maybe this constant fight between different sects, that in essence, and even concerning their techniques, are more than 80% identical is one of my main points of criticism with this system in general.

 

But I think I'll get out of this discussion. It'll just end up in kind of "religious war", and as I mentioned somewhere else, I'm sick of it. Take it as a hint, and whenever you might yourself wonder about things that might not be okay in large parts of this system, you have the possibility to come back to it, and find that you're not the only one wondering about certain things. I guess if you keep that in mind, then that's a sufficient outcome for this writing here, and if you might not find anything useful in it, maybe somebody else might do so.

Well, in Tibetan Buddhism you might even inherit it, so by being a (mostly male) member of a certain family you get this licenses for free, so to speak, as kind of a birthright, and no matter whether spirituality matters to you at ALL, lol

 

Faith is a beautiful thing if you know how to apply it correctly.

 

Think I'll leave it with that. Keep your religious believes as long as you need them. Don't forget to drop them when they've fulfilled their purpose anyway.

 

All the best,

Ith

in your previous post, you did say that Vajrayana puts an emphasis on a reliance of BAD teachers (have no clue what you mean by this, but anyways...), thats why i am interested to know how much have you experienced, how involved you have been to actually bash the tradition in such a way, as though the whole of Tibet owes you something. I mean, you are even bashing their heritage, come on.

 

If you have an axe to grind, at least be specific about the actual scenario where/when it happened. If you do not have the courtesy/integrity to be specific, then your assertions will lack substance.

[Ish]

Are you that guy who said he had obtained rainbow body after only hearing about rainbow body for the first time ever the week earlier?

 

Serious question.

 

What? Where did you get that from

[yabyum24]

A Vajrayana teacher must be authorized to teach.

What about authorized Vajrayana teachers who follow Tsongkhapa's lineage? Are they any good? Just wondering.

[idiot_stimpy]

Alwayson, can you achieve rainbow body through kundalini?

[rex]

I just say that from my experience of this system I estimate that your chances to succeed in it might be extremely low. But if you want to work with that system that's of course not of my business.

 

Interesting use of the word system. Others may refer to vajrayana as a path. The difference in the two terms seems to connote the difference between a certain clinicalism, with all that implies and an approach based on affinity and trust, with all that implies.

 

There is also a parallel in how these two approches of clinicalism/affinity see transmission, i.e. the difference between an over-emphasis on techniques and mechanics and an approach where relationship and trust is primary.

[idiot_stimpy]

Are you that guy who said he had obtained rainbow body after only hearing about rainbow body for the first time ever the week earlier?

 

Serious question.

 

Some people think they gained perfect enlightenment when discovering the natural state during a period of intense unhappiness too.

 

It doesn't matter what anybody thinks.

[Yascra]

in your previous post, you did say that Vajrayana puts an emphasis on a reliance of BAD teachers (have no clue what you mean by this, but anyways...).

What I said was: Emphasizing a bad teacher over own wisdom, okay?

That was about comparison and about setting priorities, and if you read the rest of my posting I wonder how you could miss that point, for I think I really got deeper into the problems arising out of this.

I did already go into details, so I won't repeat this. Keypoints: Vajrayana doesn't work without guidance by a genuine teacher. Genuine teachers are rare. How do people solve it? Want to go on with Vajrayana, so rely on SOME teacher, which will usually be someone who is not qualified for this task.

Further conclusions left to you, details in my former posts.

 

And sorry, but as "you don't have a clue" is more like being rude than an argument with real content I won't answer to posts of this kind.

Furthermore I'd ask you to read whole sentences and the whole context, as this is the second time now that obviously you didn't read the whole posting, otherwise I consider it quite difficult to misinterpret what I wrote in such a manner; and if my expressions are so strange that you absolutely don't get what I might have meant, there would be possibilities to ASK.

 

By the way, which Karmapa is the real one?

 

Best regards

Edited February 2, 2014 by Yascra

[Yascra]

 

Interesting use of the word system. Others may refer to vajrayana as a path. The difference in the two terms seems to connote the difference between a certain clinicalism, with all that implies and an approach based on affinity and trust, with all that implies.

Well, another name for affinity and trust of which you don't understand where exactly they come from is ... karma.

As long as one does not see all afflictions clearly it's always a good idea to not blindly rely on the hope that some karma is a positive one, but additionally analyze things from the perspective of a neutral observer to really find out what's beneficial and what not

I know that this is less touchy and might sound uncool, in the end people want to have some object on which to project their own devotion. But of course it is a spiritual system.

If you're interested in discussing details of "system vs. path", I'd recommend you open up a new thread for this, then we might see

It would be off topic in here I suppose.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Yascra

[C T]

What I said was: Emphasizing a bad teacher over own wisdom, okay?

That was about comparison and about setting priorities, and if you read the rest of my posting I wonder how you could miss that point, for I think I really got deeper into the problems arising out of this.

I did already go into details, so I won't repeat this. Keypoints: Vajrayana doesn't work without guidance by a genuine teacher. Genuine teachers are rare. How do people solve it? Want to go on with Vajrayana, so rely on SOME teacher, which will usually be someone who is not qualified for this task.

Further conclusions left to you, details in my former posts.

 

And sorry, but as "you don't have a clue" is more like being rude than an argument with real content I won't answer to posts of this kind.

Furthermore I'd ask you to read whole sentences and the whole context, as this is the second time now that obviously you didn't read the whole posting, otherwise I consider it quite difficult to misinterpret what I wrote in such a manner; and if my expressions are so strange that you absolutely don't get what I might have meant, there would be possibilities to ASK.

 

By the way, which Karmapa is the real one?

 

Best regards

Actually, you think your posts are full of clarity etc ~ sorry, but mostly its just taking wild stabs. Baseless and lacking in factuality. Resorting to conjecture and probably hearsay is not a good way to expect any serious consideration in what you are trying to convey.

 

My comprehension skills are fine thanks, and the not-so-subtle jibe at the end says a lot about you. Its obvious you have been taken for a ride by some charlatan claiming to be a Lama (there are a few of those around) and got burnt in a lasting way.

[rex]

Well, another name for affinity and trust of which you don't understand where exactly they come from is ... karma.

As long as one does not see all afflictions clearly it's always a good idea to not blindly rely on the hope that some karma is a positive one, but additionally analyze things from the perspective of a neutral observer to really find out what's beneficial and what not

 

 

There is understanding and it really doesn't have to be mysterious - people are drawn to a path because of what they are. The affinity protects and supports despite the afflictions of the kleshas and also provides fortitude and discrimination when the inevitable bullshit(er) is encountered.

 

edit: tpyos

Edited February 2, 2014 by rex

[RongzomFan]

Well, in Tibetan Buddhism you might even inherit it, so by being a (mostly male) member of a certain family you get this licenses for free, so to speak, as kind of a birthright, and no matter whether spirituality matters to you at ALL, lol

 

You don't have much understanding of Tibetan Buddhism.

[RongzomFan]

Some people think they gained perfect enlightenment when discovering the natural state during a period of intense unhappiness too.

 

It doesn't matter what anybody thinks.

 

Recognizing natural state is not enlightenment.

 

That's only day one via direct introduction.

 

Rainbow body is enlightenment.