non-negative negation

[3bob]

I don't know about you but I'm more or less tired of hearing quasi-Buddhist sayings on emptiness, non-existence and nihilistic like negativity being given out as wisdom, etc., - but I did find the Buddhist quote below to be more or less informative:

 

"...The Fourfold Negation and the Perfection of Wisdom instruct us to go beyond external fabricated natures, internal dependent natures, consciousness, and self-emptiness. Enlightenment is only realized by purifying and abandoning these wrong, limited views, until the ground of all, the Buddha Essence, spontaneously arises as the separated result, the Primordial Buddha: true purity, true self, true bliss, and true permanence..."

Edited August 28, 2013 by 3bob

[rene]

I don't know about you but I'm more or less sick of hearing quasi-Buddhist harpings on emptiness, non-existence, and nihilistic like negativity being pawned off as wisdom, etc., but I did find the Buddhist quote below to be more or less informative:

 

"...The Fourfold Negation and the Perfection of Wisdom instruct us to go beyond external fabricated natures, internal dependent natures, consciousness, and self-emptiness. Enlightenment is only realized by purifying and abandoning these wrong, limited views, until the ground of all, the Buddha Essence, spontaneously arises as the separated result, the Primordial Buddha: true purity, true self, true bliss, and true permanence..."

 

True purity, true self, true bliss, true permanence: the clarity of simplicity. (-:

 

Nice thread, 3bob.

[3bob]

Thanks Rene,

I toned down a couple of the words (a little bit) used in my original post but the same drift is still there...

[Flolfolil]

nvm

Edited August 28, 2013 by Flolfolil

[rene]

@3bob -The thought came through, yes

Edited August 28, 2013 by rene

[rene]

have you realized these things yourself? from what ground do you claim to be better than other peoples "wrong" views?

 

edit: no need to reply here, went ahead and made my own thread on this subject

 

And I just replied in your 'own' thread, but to help you out - I'll post the gist of it here too.

 

***

 

There was nothing said in this thread about one way is better than another, or that one path is better than another. Read it again. What is being talked about was misunderstanding and/or misusing the meanings of specific terms in a specific path.

 

Another example of what 3bob is talking about - is when folks think "wu wei" means sitting on your ass on the couch doing nothing. Maybe sitting on your ass is a better "way" for you or maybe it's not - who is to know or judge? The point is, and was, understanding terms.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

My position is disestablishment, which is a negation of civilization.

However reception is rarely positive, and cooperation is nil.


So it leaves me with a very negative view of you.

[rene]

My position is disestablishment, which is a negation of civilization.

 

However reception is rarely positive, and cooperation is nil.

 

 

So it leaves me with a very negative view of you.

 

We each see through our own filters, yes? I have a very positive view of you.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

cooperative people are always seen as positive in my filters

[Aetherous]

[rene]

Letting go of everything
Eventually even means
Letting go of letting go.

Edited August 28, 2013 by rene

[Wu Ming Jen]

Health, Wealth and Happiness, True emptiness that is not empty,non existence where we came from and where we return, where we have never left.That which is not a physical "place" Enjoy life and be awesome.

 

Another road is life beats the hell out of someone and they must get rid of their suffering, to each their own, every situation imaginable is out there but it does not need to be our own reflection of that which we see.or the WAY we live.

 

Energetically keeping others negative energy patterns not able to penetrate our consciousness or impact our lives negatively is powerful practice Then beauty and awesomeness has a place to be in our lives. positiveness keeps the opposite forces at bay and powerless against us. Negativity needs a much darker place to call home. Darkness and light love each other but Light is the host and dark is the guest when that role switches places all the problems of the world appear of our own creation.

[3bob]

"...Energetically keeping others negative energy patterns not able to penetrate our consciousness or impact our lives negatively is powerful practice Then beauty and awesomeness has a place to be in our lives. positiveness keeps the opposite forces at bay and powerless against us. Negativity needs a much darker place to call home. Darkness and light love each other but Light is the host and dark is the guest when that role switches places all the problems of the world appear of our own creation."

 

 

Wow, I like that!

[3bob]

Ant fact:

 

"Watch ants for any length of time, and you'll witness some remarkable feats of strength. Tiny ants, marching in lines, will haul food, grains of sand, and even small pebbles back to their colonies. It's true that ants can lift objects 50 times their own body weight. Why are ants so strong?

 

Answer:

The real strength of an ant, or any insect for that matter, lies in its diminutive size. Generally speaking, the smaller the critter, the stronger it will be. It's physics, plain and simple. First, you need to understand a few basic measurements of size, mass, and strength:

• The strength of a muscle is proportional to the surface area of its cross section.
• Surface area is a two-dimensional measurement, and is proportional to the square of its length.
• Volume is a three-dimensional measurement, and is proportional to the cube of its length".

[Thunder_Gooch]

I don't know about you but I'm more or less tired of hearing quasi-Buddhist sayings on emptiness, non-existence and nihilistic like negativity being given out as wisdom, etc., - but I did find the Buddhist quote below to be more or less informative:

 

"...The Fourfold Negation and the Perfection of Wisdom instruct us to go beyond external fabricated natures, internal dependent natures, consciousness, and self-emptiness. Enlightenment is only realized by purifying and abandoning these wrong, limited views, until the ground of all, the Buddha Essence, spontaneously arises as the separated result, the Primordial Buddha: true purity, true self, true bliss, and true permanence..."

 

How about we dispose of the quasi-Buddhist sayings, and just use some regular plain old Buddhist sayings on the same topic?

 

 

 

 

"Your body is empty; emptiness is your body. Emptiness

is nothing but your body, and your body is nothing but emptiness."

 

"Every existing thing is emptiness."

 

 

"There are no eyes; no ears; no nose; no tongue; no body; no mind; nothing to see; nothing to hear; nothing to smell; nothing to taste; nothing to touch; and nothing to think of."

 

 

"There is no part of you that sees. There is no part of you that is aware of what you see; and this is true all the way up to the part of you that thinks, and the part of you that is aware that you are thinking."

 

-Buddha

(quoted from the Heart Sutra)

 

 

 

"All existing things are such that no living being exists, and nothing that lives exists, and no person exists."

 

 

"A mind which is past is non-existent. And a mind in the future is non-existent. And a mind that is going on at the present is non-existent as well."

 

 

"At that moment there came into my mind no conception of a self, nor of a sentient being, nor of a living being, nor of a person —I had no conception at all. But neither did I have no conception."

 

 

"Bodhisattvas give all that they have, for the sake of every

living being. And this same conception of anyone as a living

being is a conception that does not exist; when the Buddha(One Gone)

Thus speaks of "every living being," they too are living beings

that do not even exist."

 

-Buddha

(quoted from the Diamond Sutra

)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Suffering alone exists, none who suffer;

The deed there is, but no doer thereof;

Nirvana is, but no one seeking it;

The Path there is, but none who travel it."

 

-Buddha

(quoted from the Visuddhimagga - the path of purification sutra

)

Edited August 29, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[3bob]

not biting...

[rene]

not biting...

 

No need to. (-:

 

As OldChi said in a different thread... everyone is at a different place on their path.

 

 

I have found that there are levels of perception and understanding. There were certain principles or truths that 1 year ago I could just not penetrate through and they would go way over my head because at that point I was not ready to recieve such knowledge or I didn't have the necessary experience to understand certain things.

 

Such unfolding continues for me till this day.....it really is quite a fun and interesting phenomena.

 

 

My 2 cents, Peace

[steve]

I'll bite

 

 

Also from the Diamond Sutra -

 

""How do I know this? Because this person must have discarded all arbitrary notions of the existence of a personal self, of other people, or of a universal self. Otherwise their minds would still grasp after such relative conceptions. Furthermore, these people must have already discarded all arbitrary notions of the non-existence of a personal self, other people, or a universal self. Otherwise, their minds would still be grasping at such notions. Therefore anyone who seeks total Enlightenment should discard not only all conceptions of their own selfhood, of other selves, or of a universal self, but they should also discard all notions of the non-existence of such concepts."

 

"When the Buddha explains these things using such concepts and ideas, people should remember the unreality of all such concepts and ideas. They should recall that in teaching spiritual truths the Buddha always uses these concepts and ideas in the way that a raft is used to cross a river. Once the river has been crossed over, the raft is of no more use, and should be discarded. These arbitrary concepts and ideas about spiritual things need to be explained to us as we seek to attain Enlightenment. However, ultimately these arbitrary conceptions can be discarded. Think Subhuti, isn't it even more obvious that we should also give up our conceptions of non-existent things?"

 

 

"Suppose, Subhuti, a man had an enormous body. Would the sense of personal existence he had also be enormous?"

"Yes, indeed, Buddha," Subhuti answered. "His sense of personal existence would be enormous. But the Buddha has taught that personal existence is just a name, for it is in fact neither existence nor non-existence. So it only has the name 'personal existence'."

 

"Subhuti, how can one explain this Sutra to others without holding in mind any arbitrary conception of forms or phenomena or spiritual truths? It can only be done, Subhuti, by keeping the mind in perfect tranquility and free from any attachment to appearances."

Edited August 29, 2013 by steve

[Thunder_Gooch]

You don't have to, you said you were tired of "hearing quasi-Buddhist sayings"

 

I posted just some regular plain old Buddhist sayings and referenced them.

 

 

not biting...

[rene]

I'll bite

 

 

Also from the Diamond Sutra -

 

""How do I know this? Because this person must have discarded all arbitrary notions of the existence of a personal self, of other people, or of a universal self. Otherwise their minds would still grasp after such relative conceptions. Furthermore, these people must have already discarded all arbitrary notions of the non-existence of a personal self, other people, or a universal self. Otherwise, their minds would still be grasping at such notions. Therefore anyone who seeks total Enlightenment should discard not only all conceptions of their own selfhood, of other selves, or of a universal self, but they should also discard all notions of the non-existence of such concepts."

 

"When the Buddha explains these things using such concepts and ideas, people should remember the unreality of all such concepts and ideas. They should recall that in teaching spiritual truths the Buddha always uses these concepts and ideas in the way that a raft is used to cross a river. Once the river has been crossed over, the raft is of no more use, and should be discarded. These arbitrary concepts and ideas about spiritual things need to be explained to us as we seek to attain Enlightenment. However, ultimately these arbitrary conceptions can be discarded. Think Subhuti, isn't it even more obvious that we should also give up our conceptions of non-existent things?"

 

 

"Suppose, Subhuti, a man had an enormous body. Would the sense of personal existence he had also be enormous?"

"Yes, indeed, Buddha," Subhuti answered. "His sense of personal existence would be enormous. But the Buddha has taught that personal existence is just a name, for it is in fact neither existence nor non-existence. So it only has the name 'personal existence'."

 

"Subhuti, how can one explain this Sutra to others without holding in mind any arbitrary conception of forms or phenomena or spiritual truths? It can only be done, Subhuti, by keeping the mind in perfect tranquility and free from any attachment to appearances."

 

Steve, thanks for posting that. I'm going to copy it into another thread for Flolfolil. (-:

[3bob]

ok more pie guy, I recognize your right.to do so.

[Thunder_Gooch]

A dream could be said to be empty and non-existent, yet obviously as it is being experienced it can not be said to have non-existence either.

 

 

 

 

I'll bite

 

 

Also from the Diamond Sutra -

 

""How do I know this? Because this person must have discarded all arbitrary notions of the existence of a personal self, of other people, or of a universal self. Otherwise their minds would still grasp after such relative conceptions. Furthermore, these people must have already discarded all arbitrary notions of the non-existence of a personal self, other people, or a universal self. Otherwise, their minds would still be grasping at such notions. Therefore anyone who seeks total Enlightenment should discard not only all conceptions of their own selfhood, of other selves, or of a universal self, but they should also discard all notions of the non-existence of such concepts."

 

"When the Buddha explains these things using such concepts and ideas, people should remember the unreality of all such concepts and ideas. They should recall that in teaching spiritual truths the Buddha always uses these concepts and ideas in the way that a raft is used to cross a river. Once the river has been crossed over, the raft is of no more use, and should be discarded. These arbitrary concepts and ideas about spiritual things need to be explained to us as we seek to attain Enlightenment. However, ultimately these arbitrary conceptions can be discarded. Think Subhuti, isn't it even more obvious that we should also give up our conceptions of non-existent things?"

 

 

"Suppose, Subhuti, a man had an enormous body. Would the sense of personal existence he had also be enormous?"

"Yes, indeed, Buddha," Subhuti answered. "His sense of personal existence would be enormous. But the Buddha has taught that personal existence is just a name, for it is in fact neither existence nor non-existence. So it only has the name 'personal existence'."

 

"Subhuti, how can one explain this Sutra to others without holding in mind any arbitrary conception of forms or phenomena or spiritual truths? It can only be done, Subhuti, by keeping the mind in perfect tranquility and free from any attachment to appearances."

[Thunder_Gooch]

Not necessarily a right, I just have a quibble with the way you worded the:

 

"quasi-Buddhist sayings on emptiness, non-existence and nihilistic like negativity being given out as wisdom, etc"

 

 

It's as if somehow Buddha did not come right out and say exactly what he did.

 

It's sort of like people who ask me what my favorite bible verse is, and I tell them Ezekiel 23:20, and they get really upset when they read it.

 

It's your path so you are free to pick and choose which parts of which teachings you listen to and ignore.

 

My only quibble is you saying the bits you don't like aren't really Buddhist, to me this is like a Christian saying Ezekiel 23:20 isn't in the bible.

 

 

ok more pie guy, I recognize your right.to do so.

Edited August 29, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[skydog]

How about we dispose of the quasi-Buddhist sayings, and just use some regular plain old Buddhist sayings on the same topic?

 

More pie guy please stop posting new age crap

 

I fear soon youll be posting about how neccessary it is to get yin chi or how there are only 10 powerful masters in the world.

Edited August 29, 2013 by skydog

[Thunder_Gooch]

Quotes by Buddha who lived 2500 years ago, wouldn't fall under "new" age teachings.

 

It is necessary to be grounded during meditation to absorb yin chi, and there are only 10 real masters on earth you could learn under.

 

 

 

 

More pie guy please stop posting new age crap

 

I fear soon youll be posting about how neccessary it is to get yin chi or how there are only 10 powerful masters in the world.