How to develop unconditional love?

[Marblehead]

Agreed Jetsun. I have many times mentioned the pleasure/pain concept. Happiness/suffering is basically the same thing.

[Songtsan]

I am variable % happy/variable % suffering, depending on what I am focusing on.

[Marblehead]

I am variable % happy/variable % suffering, depending on what I am focusing on.

Life is that way, isn't it?

 

We are in a state of contentment then something happens that causes us displeasure which in turn causes us to make adjustments in order to reestablish harmony in our life so that we can return to a state of contentment. Never ending until the day we die.

[Jainarayan]

I haven't read through the whole thread but I can relate to trying to love enemies and not hate people. I have a sister-in-law whom I had not spoken to (civilly) in two years, for reasons I need not go into here and now. Suffice to say my not forgiving her, though I told myself I forgave her, was doing me a great spiritual disservice. I can't say I forgave her nor not-forgave her, but it is what it is. We mended fences, as it were, though things will never be the same: I found out that trying to help an injured scorpion will still get you stung, and it takes only once to learn. I have to accept that she is like the scorpion, and I have to tread carefully to help her and not get stung. But I'm certainly not going to step on the scorpion... it does what it does (then I run my ass to the ER for a shot of anti-venom ).

 

Some days are harder than others to see us in other people... the "us" being part of the Tao, Brahman, God, Jesus, our buddha-nature, or whomever or whatever one believes in (or not). Right now I'm reading Living Buddha, Living Christ by Thich Nhat Hanh. He says that when we forgive and love our enemies, they are no longer our enemies. If someone really wants to let go of the anger and hate, they will. It takes work, no doubt. The Buddha said that there are only two ways to get to the other side of a river... swim or row in a boat. The far bank will not come to you no matter how hard you wish it or pray for it. Again, sometimes easier said than done. So, that's my take-with-a-grain-of-salt take on it.

[Marblehead]

I like your post but I will speak to this:

He says that when we forgive and love our enemies, they are no longer our enemies.

But if a person has a .38 pointed at you and you decide to love them there is still a pretty good chance that you will get shot.

 

Moderation!

[Jainarayan]

Absolutely... that's why I don't subscribe to the concept of māyā, illusion. That .38 bullet ain't no illusion. If I don't survive, there's no time to hate the shooter. If I do survive, while I'm recovering, I can meditate on it.

[Songtsan]

Life is that way, isn't it?

 

We are in a state of contentment then something happens that causes us displeasure which in turn causes us to make adjustments in order to reestablish harmony in our life so that we can return to a state of contentment. Never ending until the day we die.

 

but we are also always feeling at least some pleasure and feeling at least pain at the same time all day long...whether its 1% pleasure and 99% pain, one can choose where one's focus goes at least...

[Marblehead]

but we are also always feeling at least some pleasure and feeling at least pain at the same time all day long...whether its 1% pleasure and 99% pain, one can choose where one's focus goes at least...

I'm not sure I agree with the entire post but for sure I agree with the highlighted part.

[hydrogen]

Try unconditional love on yourself first. It's not easy.

[Marblehead]

Try unconditional love on yourself first. It's not easy.

It sure isn't!!! Of course, I'm a rather critical person so I'm always finding faults with myself.

[Marblehead]

I dont understand this, could you explain? I dont see happiness and suffering as the same.

These are dualities, Cat. Happiness at one end and suffering at the other. Same with pleasure and pain - they are opposites.

 

Happiness and suffering are the psychological aspects and pleasure and pair are the physical aspects.

 

So, more or less, happiness equals pleasure and suffering equals pain.

[Jainarayan]

There's a Buddhist prayer that's easy to say, but hard to practice:

 

If I have harmed any one in any way, either knowingly or unknowingly through my own confusions, I ask their forgiveness.

If any one has harmed me in any way, either knowingly or unknowingly through their own confusions, I forgive them.

And if there is a situation I am not yet ready to forgive, I forgive myself for that.

For all the ways that I harm myself, negate, doubt, belittle myself, judge or be unkind to myself, through my own confusions, I forgive myself.

[Songtsan]

I'm not sure I agree with the entire post but for sure I agree with the highlighted part.

 

Well even if someone is stabbing you with a knife, in that second, you might not feel any pain (truly - the body wouldn't notice for a few secs because the nerves would get overloaded - it happened to a cousin of mine - he was stabbed in the stomach and didn't even feel it until he realized he was bleeding...shock, etc. see nerve pain gate nexus google dat and learn about neat stuff), yet at the same time, it will still be reality-interesting! Like this: Say you hurt so bad, 10/10 pain - makes you jump into the sky...you are still being aware of the sky when you jump! It's all neat, even when it hurts. It's like dis: If I stab you, and you stab me, then we decide to become frenemies...we might stab eachother in the back once or twice after that, but we would still find something to like about the other, or else we wouldn't have hated them so much! Even death is interesting to the dying...they are partly thinking, 'what's next!?' with excitement, and even dis: 'Going down the rollercoaster now, uh oh! excitement' Fear/pain/misery slash wonderment, etc. Do you see? Life gets a kick out of going down the crazy hell ride...fear scares us, but its still us, same for pain, and being caught in cold hard rain...whether or not we shut down, misery has friends in either place...comfort exists in knowing that it can't go on forever, and that one is caught up in a great flood. Then, give up and let the flood take you to scary death!

 

Death = release from pain, pain = release from death...do you know how the wheel works?

 

Don't stop thinking - make it hurt!

Edited June 24, 2013 by Songtsan

[Clarity]

sorry, i am sure your ways work for you. i just don't see it working for me in the near future. i'm pretty much in pain every day whether it be from urinary issues or my totally wrecked knees from doing yoga wrong.

 

it is a big reason why i am unhappy. i have tried the detach myself from the physical thing and it makes me feel insane and i get a headache and start hallucinating. i try being with the pain, and it excites the nerves too much and the pain gets worse.

 

i honestly don't see any solution, and i feel like i will have these specific pains until i die

 

PM me if you would like some strengthening for your issues. There's no reason to put up with this kind of pain for the rest of your life.

 

Love won't solve your problems either. The Sufi's have a saying, "First tie your camel, then trust in Allah."

[ChiDragon]

Well even if someone is stabbing you with a knife, in that second, you might not feel any pain (truly - the body wouldn't notice for a few secs because the nerves would get overloaded

 

One only feel the pain after the knife was removed from the stab. The oxygen in the air enters the wound which activates the nerves for one to feel the pain.

[Songtsan]

One only feel the pain after the knife was removed from the stab. The oxygen in the air enters the wound which activates the nerves for one to feel the pain.

 

nice treat! Apparently what happened was that my cousin was stabbed over a can of soup (but it was more complex than that, involving snowmobiles and German shepards - true story i will tell if you like), and he walked into the house, having thought he had been punched in the gut, then realized he had been stabbed. They had to life-flight him to a hospital...he was in Alaska...

[Marblehead]

Death = release from pain, pain = release from death...do you know how the wheel works?

 

Don't stop thinking - make it hurt!

Hehehe. Good try but no, I'm not going there with you.

 

And no, we should stop thinking now and again. That way we can get our freakin't dicks back in line.

[Marblehead]

I forgot you failed logic 101. I think it was your use of 'more or less' that did it.

"More or less" is almost always applicable. You want I should have said "always"? That would have set you off really well. Hehehe.

[Songtsan]

Hehehe. Good try but no, I'm not going there with you.

 

And no, we should stop thinking now and again. That way we can get our freakin't dicks back in line.

 

So you think a person can be 100% pained, with no pleasure existent?

[Marblehead]

So you think a person can be 100% pained, with no pleasure existent?

I have known people who seemed to be that way unless they were out to lunch with drugs or alcohol. We they happy? They thought they were when they were out to lunch.

[Songtsan]

I have known people who seemed to be that way unless they were out to lunch with drugs or alcohol. We they happy? They thought they were when they were out to lunch.

 

So let's take a hypothetical scenario: Suppose someone is being electrocuted, tortured, burned alive, etc etc. all at once..let's just pretend that is the most painful thing possible to a human being...In that moment of time, you think there is not any pleasure, right? Absolutist statement of no pleasure, right?

 

Assuming you agree, then I will try to think that there still could be some sense of positive affect there, even if it's as small as a grain of sand.

 

Would thoughts stop?...as this experience would be so intense, could it cause one to be 100% present in the moment? Don't know for certain, never been there (fortunately)...they would at least be very minimal i think...

 

they say that when you stop thinking, things shape up for the better - thats Buddhahood, right? Pure experience in the moment, no thoughts of 'I,' pure feeling.

 

Feeling is energetic sensation - it causes body to move, chemistry to flare. The isness, or suchness of this is Tao nature. Buddha nature, Tao nature same thing, right? Would you say then that pain of such extreme is too much Yang? Yang is white, and Yin is black...everyone knows bad guys wear black, and good guys wear white. So too much Yang = good guy!

 

you have been defeated. pay me now please.

[Flolfolil]

even when i felt nothing but pain, assuming i did, that experience led me to a sense of peace after it subsided so i can see how that could be the underlying experience of pleasure in complete pain

 

also, another example is how pain could always be worse. i feel like if i experience nothing but pain and am still breathing semi-effectively, at least i am not being tortured by suffocation. Just because something isn't totally ecstatic doesn't make it not-pleasure

 

it is not death i fear, it is the potential pain and torture leading up to death that i am actually scared of

[Songtsan]

even when i felt nothing but pain, assuming i did, that experience led me to a sense of peace after it subsided so i can see how that could be the underlying experience of pleasure in complete pain

 

also, another example is how pain could always be worse. i feel like if i experience nothing but pain and am still breathing semi-effectively, at least i am not being tortured by suffocation. Just because something isn't totally ecstatic doesn't make it not-pleasure

 

it is not death i fear, it is the potential pain and torture leading up to death that i am actually scared of

 

this is my opinion too...in essence, it could always be worster, so while you are not necesarily in the bester, its still better

[gendao]

hmmm. I will do my best. Perhaps my own dakini will assist, otherwise I might fall half-short.

 

First of all, regardless of how spiritual, wise and aware you think you are, you are still lying to yourself all day long. All these beliefs you have are simply illusions, based on passing feeling states. You are still speaking in absolutes even though you know that you are dualistic, so you are trying to fake it until you make it. You have made a point of reading and following other peoples paths, even though those paths are nonexistent illusions. You paint a pretty picture, but it is only 2-dimensional. You are still fabricating mindstuff all day long and believing that they are true and that they are you. Even though you may feel that what you are is true and mostly pure, it contains at least the seed of a lie, and will always be corrupt. In fact, you shouldnt even be on this site, you should be empty already. Those who know say nothing. I see you saying something all the time. You are addicted to hearing your own ego talk and getting the petty bliss that comes with thinking that you are wise and helping others. You are not fully realized yet, perhaps have only had just a few glances at what it tastes like and then started creating mind fabrications around that. Again you are lying to yourself. You are living in your own movie. You are the star actor, and you are expecting to get paid in the end. This is the truest form of envy and greed. You desire what you have heard about so much that you have devoted yourself in its pursuit. You tell yourself that you are on a higher path, when all you are seeking in the moment is more enjoyment. There is little difference between you and a lascivious, wanton person. You are simply seeking greater and greater blisses. No matter what you say as regards your motives, it is none other than this. You are a spiritual addict - this is all just another form of attachment that has ensnared you. You already think you know this, yet you tell yourself that it is still ok, when you feel at the same time that it isn't. You try to shove that part of yourself down into the recesses of your mind, telling yourself that you will deal with it eventually. You hold on to the other part that says that this is good, saying that you will abandon this boat when you reach the shore, yet how long has this been going on? Instead of dealing with your shortcomings, you revel in supposed gains. This is mental masturbation. You are simply staring in the mirror preening like any peacock. You look for other mirrors out there who are like you to mutually masturbate with so that you feel good about yourself. There is nothing special about this. Every time you post you are doing so partly out of the desire for respect (because you dont respect your self fully, so you need it from others), need for attention (because you havent yet learned to be complete from within), need to feel wise as if you are some great teacher (because you dont feel wise enough within yourself, so you want to get the bliss of hearing others praise your wisdom and learning, and displaying gratitude for your beneficence), and a host of other ills that have steered your path all your life. They all stem from childhood patterns that you still haven't grown out of yet. You are still unripe and inmature. Again you say you know this, yet you insist on continuing the charade. You say to yourself, "aren't I at least doing some good?" in excuse, yet you know that your advice is not whole, and this has seeds of corruption built within. You are deliberately misleading other people to some degree and decide that it still serves your interest. This is selfish. Perhaps only a small degree of selfish, yet the seed of corruption will grow and spread as you disseminate imperfect (dis)information, like a virus spreading through and through. You have forgotten that everyone perceives and takes in information differently - you have not learned to adjust your teachings to each student individually...your posts have common themes because you have become habitually patterned in your stale belief systems. Perhaps its time to take a vow of silence, both internally and externally. When you have completed full absorption in every aspect of of your actions, in unity with the true everchanging suchness, then perhaps you will be egoless enough to speak to others of being egoless. Dont fear me. You will say you dont, but you still surely fear yourself, so how can you not fear me, as I am yourself? You have yet to enter the twisted parts of yourself and claim them in all their ugliness as you. Stop trying to be so nice and pure all the time. Let the other parts of yourself speak up. You know that you have 'imperfections' - that is how you view them...anything that is colored with self-hate is what you call an imperfection. You try to section those parts of yourself off, only furthering the stain. You try to ignore them, knowing full well that nescience is one of the roots of your afflictions. You are being lazy. Sloth. Despite all your work you have a flacidness about you that speaks of gluttony of the mind. You are simply attached to enjoyment, and negatively attached to pain, as is everyone else. Your pride/vanity leads you to believe that you have somehow elevated yourself over the majority of humanity. You see yourself as a risen being, forgetting that you have really gone nowhere except to more beautiful illusions. You are addicted to your mansions, having forgotten that the things you own also own you...so you are now owned by your supposed transcendance. You are owned by your pretty mind fabrications. They occupy your time as much as a man who owns a Ferrari or trophy wife. You spend much of your time stroking your own ego and patting yourself on the back. Even now you are grinning, thinking that this is fun, yet you are still seeking after enjoyment - you cannot help yourself - it is one of your most deepest habits. You know that it is not bad to experience enjoyment, yet the very fact that you asked for this shows that you still desire. You relish in your desire. You eat it all day long. It is your master still. You have dreams of becoming a world teacher, becoming enlightened and changing the world. Ego stuff. You are no different than the lowest beggar, a street thief or a lawyer. You will tell yourself that at least some of what i say is true, admit it with a feigned sense of humility (you enjoy feeling humble like a submissive BDSM gamester), all the while enjoying the game of supposed ego destruction. Yet I have told you nothing you haven't known already - you are still seeking mirrors to tell you how special you are. This is still all ego-petting. Its a twisted form of self pleasure. A game of bliss states. Seeking seeking seeking, but never finding what you really set out to find in the first place. Drop it. You check the threads you post in to see if anyone has replied to your witty, oh so insightful posts, looking for your little 'I'm special' hits every time someone praises your wisdom. You focus more on what you are teaching than the other wisdom around you. You are more concerned with feeling that you are wise than actually becoming wise by listening more than you talk. You read other people's posts looking for ammo to use against them - hiding in ambush for a reason to show them you are wiser than they are. You forget that the ignorance you see in them is the same ignorance that lies in you. Seer, seen, and act of seeing are one. Only when you see only enlightened beings everywhere will you yourself be enlightened. As things stand now, the lack of enlightenment you see is what you really are.

Woa, that was awesome!

 

Would you be interested in starting a whole thread where you/your dakini could read others too if they wished? Or just feel free to read me anytime if you want, hehe..

Edited June 25, 2013 by vortex

[Songtsan]

Woa, that was awesome!

 

Would you be interested in starting a whole thread where you/your dakini could read others too if they wished? Or just feel free to read me anytime if you want, hehe..

 

It wasnt a reading by my shakini...it was just me....if I did it for you I'd probably be lying I'll see what I can do though if I see posts by you I will hit you with my sword made of synthetic gems that shoots lasers out of it.