Tai Chi 24 Forms

[Steven King]

Hello to everyone...

 

I have recently decided to start learning (books/videos) the Tai Chi 24 forms. I've decided on a self-paced route because of the lack of teachers where I live, and money.

 

I recently purchased a small booklet and DVD at a local store. The materials are of good quality, but alas it is not the 24 forms.

 

Could someone recommed a DVD or video (YouTube) that has good English narration/explanation.

 

Thanks

Steven King

[ChiDragon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5hvODK2zW4

Advanced Tai JI 24 form

Edited May 26, 2013 by ChiDragon

[PLB]

There are lots of possible routes to suggest. But maybe you could say more.

I am curious why the "24" move set became a point of reference for you.

I am also curious about the materials you did purchase.

[shanlung]

Extract from a thread in this forum

http://thetaobums.com/topic/24575-taijiquan-styles/page-3

My take on taijichan as martial art and another attempt to explain fajing
Taijichuan martial arts

I know folks might just want to do taijichan as an exercise. Nothing wrong at all with that. BUT they must do it with a Master who know taijichuan as a martial art. I make a further distinction. That Master must truly know taijichan as a martial art and not his interpretation of martial aspects of taijichuan.

Taijichuan is not just waving and moving slowly of legs and arms. That is nothing but a parody of something truly profound.
Almost like looking at the Ecce Homo restoration by Cecilia Gimenez and thinking that was what Ecce Homo by Elias Garcia Martinez all about.

 

Taoistic Idiot

[JustBHappy]

I recommend you ditch any aspirations of learning/practicing the 24. You can research the history and formation of this poor attempt at authentic Tai Chi yourself, but to put it in a nutshell it was the communist attempt to destroy real authentic tai chi. Around the same time, wushu was created, and the ridiculous sport of push hands and all the other pissing on centuries of wisdom and mastery was started. All real authentic masters were tortured and murdered, or they hid quietly for many years or fled to Taiwan or other nearby countries. Then the clowns in charge in Beijing created this silly 24 forms routine.

Why anyone would waste precious moments of their lives practicing or learning this will never make sense to me. There are so many pure lineages of Tai chi you could be learning and investing you time and energy into. I recommend you start on the Chen Man Ching system. Traditionally you learn the 13 first, and then the 37, but many just go straight into the 37 and there is no shortage of tutorials on youtube or dvd's you could buy if you can't find a teacher.

[PLB]

What JustBHappy says is true. His recommendation of the Cheng Man Ching form is sound. Whether you take his suggestion or not, each of the real styles require you begin at the beginning. It doesn't matter if there are ten thousand moves if one hasn't learned the first one.

I don't think the 24 set is completely without value. But it is not a school or a philosophy of learning. What ever doing tai chi chuan can do or one acheives, it is a gate way to a new experience. Forms are only important if you look for something through them. A short form is not a short cut.

[林愛偉]

The 24 set was formulated by the Chinese Gov. back in the day in order to cap their own system away from the lineage holders. The reason was for the deterring of rebellions from martial arts factions. In their case, their 24 style though capped the "Yang 24 Form" was pieced together by martial artists who did indeed practice Taiji Quan, but so as not to be totally ex-ed out of the nation and labeled political activist, worked together to save their butts, and keep their martial art somewhat around.

 

The wushu, originally, was formulated by traditional arts, and yet was thus changed for a more performance flavor. It still has use as well, but those traditional uses aren't really taught unless asked. Furthermore, only 5 styles are seen as Nationally sponsored and regulated as part of the national Wushu systems. Though I was just recently told what they were, I forgot. HAHAHA

 

Anything else traditional is not sanctioned by the gov., and left for those enthusiasts to maintain on their own. Which in turn leaves them dying out because it is expensive opening up a traditional wushu academy, big enough to accommodate large masses of people. In that, the gov. doesn't sponsor it because they already capped their Wushu. There are indeed high level masters teaching in the government wushu associations. They are paid to teach, and they do indeed practice 4-6hours daily. They have to, its their job.

 

Though the cultural revolution killed everything possible about Chinese culture, once it ended, the people still tried to revive the old culture, at least some of it. It was okay, and the gov. even supports it, though in their own model, which isn't too bad. Also, traditional arts are the foundation of the new forms of wushu. The wushu of today came from the wushu of yesteryear.

Thus, the traditional flavor is there, just the forms are made big, and acrobatic.

 

My friend and teacher of Black Tiger Fist tells me all the times about the development of Wushu in China of the last 40yrs. He was head of several Wushu associations in China, and grew up in the Wushu academies since childhood. He specifically states that the 24 form was a creation of several motions of the Yang form, and utilized only for exercise. Technical applications are shown, but not in in-depth detail, neither is the Qigong. He states that the government sanctions 4 sets of Qigong, Yi Jin Jing, Jiu Yin Jin Jing, Medical/Health Qigong, and something else...I forgot.

 

Also, for many years there were traditional arts in Wushu academies, ut due to the more appealing flavor of high jumps and spins, the traditional arts are dying out, and it is not in the gov.'s hands to save them, only the individual.

Every other style or system of Qigong is not sanctioned for fear people may develop abilities which will be used against the gov. He further states that one truthfully will not be jumping, spinning and flipping during a fight, and if they do, they either better be super-awesome at their stuff, or able to fly. He mentions that true technique is small framed, and isn't afraid of close quarters. A form can be practiced big for many many health benefits, yet applications must be realistic and smaller.

Edited May 28, 2013 by 林愛偉

[idquest]

Is your idea that taiji (and other IMA) need to be sponsored to survive and develope? In the past some war lords might have sponsored the arts, now it is either the government or private sponsors? This actually makes sense to some extent. Throughout the history, fine arts and music survived and evolved being commissioned by sponsors, why not martial arts?

[林愛偉]

Yes. The traditional arts aren't sanctioned by the gov because it would bring too much clout to the families of those lineages. This would take the appearance of power away from the central gov. in being an authority on something.

 

Only their own rendition..lol of the traditional arts, which can be coined a product of the gov. is sponsored. So at least we get something...but those old style, deep internal practices of any style, are left to die out. People can make their own organization to sponsor, support and promote the traditional arts, and they do, but it is not mainstream, thus it doesn't get much of any attention. Also, grassroots traditional orgs have to use their own money. So, it becomes quite an expense, but they try anyway. Hence why many don't believe in the traditional martial arts school...they rather teach the real traditional way.. in a home, backyard, if they have that, and or the park. lol

[Mal]

The last time my Sifu taught Tai Chi he taught the 24 form. He usually teaches Yang long form but tried the 24 because usually < 1/3 of the starting class make it to the end of the long form.

We had > 2/3 of the original class make it to the end of the 24 form so it was easier for them to learn, a few stayed on to learn the long form.

Personally I do not enjoy the 24 and do not practice it preferring the first third of the long form if I want a shorter form to practice.

[Apech]

I was taught the 24 form (among other things) and still practice it (learned from a Hong Kong Chinese teacher and also a Taiwanese teacher)... I have no doubt what people say is true about how it was 'created' but all I can say is that I have derived great health and well being benefit from it and I am sure it has merit and is worthwhile. I would suggest even if the Chinese government had a hand in developing it ... it did not spring from nowhere and is based on legitimate traditional movements.

[林愛偉]

I was taught the 24 form (among other things) and still practice it (learned from a Hong Kong Chinese teacher and also a Taiwanese teacher)... I have no doubt what people say is true about how it was 'created' but all I can say is that I have derived great health and well being benefit from it and I am sure it has merit and is worthwhile. I would suggest even if the Chinese government had a hand in developing it ... it did not spring from nowhere and is based on legitimate traditional movements.

 

 

It is made from legitimate, traditional movements. The inner methods, or xin fa, is still Taiji Quan.

[ChiDragon]

The practice of Tai Ji Quan is very versatile. The original practice was to perform the 108 forms in sequence. After the practitioner is familiar with all the forms, then the forms can be broken down in difference sequence which called the random sequential practice method. In the 108 forms, there are lots of repeated forms which is hard to remember for those who just want to do for exercise. Hence, the Chinese government had called all the Tai Ji Masters together and help to come up with the simplest basic short forms so anyone can practice. These short forms become an international standard for all the people around the world to learn and bring it back to their own country and teach. Therefore, the people around the world can go into China for the Tai Ji tournament which held by the Chinese government.

The basic concept is not based on which form one was practiced. It was the benefits resulted from the practice of the movements repeatedly over and over for the body the adjust to those movements holistically. Thus the muscle reflexes will be able to respond to all movements spontaneously.

Edited May 31, 2013 by ChiDragon

[JustBHappy]

Lineage is everything. Plain and simple, no replacement or faking an authentic lineage.

You can learn all the same external moves, practice them for a lifetime and still come no closer to mastery without the lineage. There is so much more to an internal art like Tai Chi. You will never be able to spot what is hidden within the forms, nor will you get the real jewels of the system. The forms are the mere tip of the iceberg.

It's strange to me how westerners fail to understand lineage, and it's profound importance. Most of my Asian friends just take this as common sense, but for some reason most westerners just don't get it.

[Mudfoot]

Lineage is everything. Plain and simple, no replacement or faking an authentic lineage.

 

You can learn all the same external moves, practice them for a lifetime and still come no closer to mastery without the lineage. There is so much more to an internal art like Tai Chi. You will never be able to spot what is hidden within the forms, nor will you get the real jewels of the system. The forms are the mere tip of the iceberg.

 

It's strange to me how westerners fail to understand lineage, and it's profound importance. Most of my Asian friends just take this as common sense, but for some reason most westerners just don't get it.

 

And then you seek out a Chinese taiji master, with a lineage and being internationally known, only to find out that what you get is a taiji interpreted from/mixed with Shaolin-style external (semi-internal?) kung fu.

For a beginner, not knowing what to look for, it is always like buying a lottery ticket.

 

But when you find a teacher who got the transmissions contained in an internal art, It's like falling in love.

[shanlung]

I will even say never mind the lineages.

For not all the students, and especially students of students of students got the transmission regardless of the lineages.

 

Sad to say, there are masters of impeccable lineages who might not know what they are talking about, especially those who cannot fajing or tinging.

 

You must have a Master who can deliver.

At the minimum, a Master who can at least TingJing.

You struck jackpot if you have a Master who can Fa Jing.

 

And accept that just because he can, that might not mean that you can either.

But at least, you getting in the right doorway.

I had to discard so much dead weight and nonsense and made belief rubbish and that my cup was truly empty before I could taste the tea my Masters poured for me.

 

Idiotic Taoist

[JustBHappy]

I will even say never mind the lineages.

For not all the students, and especially students of students of students got the transmission regardless of the lineages.

 

Sad to say, there are masters of impeccable lineages who might not know what they are talking about, especially those who cannot fajing or tinging.

 

You must have a Master who can deliver.

At the minimum, a Master who can at least TingJing.

You struck jackpot if you have a Master who can Fa Jing.

 

And accept that just because he can, that might not mean that you can either.

But at least, you getting in the right doorway.

I had to discard so much dead weight and nonsense and made belief rubbish and that my cup was truly empty before I could taste the tea my Masters poured for me.

 

Idiotic Taoist

 

It's quite simple. If they don't know what they are talking about nor have the skills and mastery, then they simply do not have the lineage. The lineage is not a chart on a piece of paper like a family tree. A lineage is a LIVING transmission of enlightenment or mastery. This flame needs to be kept alive in order to have authentic lineage. The moves, the meaningless 'family tree' that one may claim, have little value. It's the lineage transmission that is priceless.

 

"Sad to say, there are masters of impeccable lineages who might not know what they are talking about, especially those who cannot fajing or tinging."

 

This is rubbish. They are not masters of impeccable lineages. They are frauds, charlatans, scammers, fakes, despite what they may claim, or what their family name is. Once again, to make it clear because for some reason very few in this world seem to understand the importance of lineage and what it is; Lineage is a LIVING transmission of enlightenment or mastery. If this enlightenment or mastery is missing, then the lineage flame has died. There are no masters of impeccable lineages who don't know what they're talking about or have no skills. If they are clueless, skill-less, then they are also lineage-less. You cannot carry a flame that doesn't exist.

 

The great lineages of yogis, saints, and internal arts have shown us again and again the supreme importance of true lineage. They have also shown us again and again that it has little to do with blood, or family. Often a great masters own children will not have what it takes to receive the lineage. They can learn all the moves, the techniques, the theory, etc.. but lineage is much much more than that.

 

Ignore it if you wish but you can truly spend a lifetime diligently practicing and make very little progress. The student is important, but even the best student in the world will end up scratching his/her head on their deathbed wondering what they did wrong and why they got no results unless they find an authentic lineage master. Those of you reading this who have met and been taught by authentic masters will know exactly what I'm talking about. A few hours with a real teacher is much more valuable than years with a charlatan. It's the small imperceptible details that produce the most profound results.

[shanlung]

 

Go and be happy.

 

I will remain happy by throwing you into my ignore bin and not seeing anymore of your views.

 

You should do the same to me too.

That way you be happy too not having to see anymore of my replies to you and you can

remain blissfully happy with your precious lineages. And you can flog your purity to one and all to your heart content.

 

And may they all bow down to you and your all-conquering impeccable lineage(s)

 

Idiotic Taoist

[JustBHappy]

No thanks, I don't play the 'ignore game' I have no issue with you, or your views. I have found that the people, things and events we most wish to ignore, often have something we need to learn. Once the lesson is learned, we often either never see these same appearances or we do and they cease to effect us. I don't strive to have nobody push my buttons, I strive to have no buttons.

I realize that my views are extreme for most people. I have, and continue to make sacrifices and tough choices in order to find and learn from what I view to be great masters and lineages. What started out as a three year meditation retreat in India has turned into an endless journey through Asia. I realize that for some, committing to a couple days a week to learn some Tai Chi at the local community center is a big sacrifice and that the average joe couldn't care less about lineage's or authenticity. I see the great internal arts and Buddhist/Taoist meditation arts as priceless jewels with the potential to help us in ways that the world desperately needs at this time, so I do take it a little more serious and I don't apologize or try to hide it.

[steve]

Hello to everyone...

 

I have recently decided to start learning (books/videos) the Tai Chi 24 forms. I've decided on a self-paced route because of the lack of teachers where I live, and money.

 

I recently purchased a small booklet and DVD at a local store. The materials are of good quality, but alas it is not the 24 forms.

 

Could someone recommed a DVD or video (YouTube) that has good English narration/explanation.

 

Thanks

Steven King

If you would like to learn Taijiquan, I would urge you to not spend a penny on books or videos. Save your money until you can afford to find a credible teacher. There is no substitute. As you read the debates about which style is best and why the 24 forms are artificial and all of that, remember this - a good teacher can teach you the true essence of Taijiquan using any form or no form. In fact, forms are a relatively recent invention. The original Taijiquan had no set sequences of movements. The 24 forms can be a wonderful vehicle for learning but only in the right hands. As the saying goes (more or less) there are three critical components to learning - the right teacher, the right student, the right teaching. I won't get into the lineage argument because both shanlung and justbhappy are speaking truth, albeit with different words and definitions. Nevertheless - if you are a dedicated student with a genuine desire to learn Taijiquan, you will eventually find the teacher and it won't be a book or video.

Good luck!

[zerostao]

wb steve,

it is good to have you sharing your perspective here again.

are you saying that there are no credible taijiquan teachers that have produced instructive useful taijiquan dvds?

Edited June 8, 2013 by zerostao

[ChiDragon]

Really...........???
This is very misleading or someone who knows nothing about the history of Taiji Quan or Tai Ji Quan. Period.

The original Taijiquan had no set sequences of movements.

[steve]

wb steve,

it is good to have you sharing your perspective here again.

are you saying that there are no credible taijiquan teachers that have produced instructive useful taijiquan dvds?

Thanks! Nice to "see" you too z.

 

Nope, it's just my opinion that one's time and money are MUCH better spent on personal instruction.

I don't think its possible to develop meaningful skill in Taijiquan by studying a book or video, no matter who wrote/made it - even my own teacher.

Sure, you can play around with the movements but one lesson from a good teacher is worth more than any book or video to a beginner. Once you have a few years of good instruction and practice, books can be useful to check one's progress. Also, they can be helpful references to someone studying with a teacher.

 

Early in my training, I bought the book "Tai Chi Boxing Chronicle" by Kuo Lien-Ying - one of the best books available on the subject, IMO.

The first time I read it, I understood about a chapter, then it was all "Chinese" to me.

After 6 months or so, I went back to it and understood several chapters.

A year or so later, I understood half the book and so on.

Eventually the whole thing made sense.

I wasn't learning from the book but it was reinforcing the discoveries and skills i was developing through my practice.

Once the foundation is there, one can learn from any book or video - a yoga book, a golf video, anything that relates to physical movement, attention, focus, discipline, etc...

 

But the basic foundation comes from the teacher and the teaching.

It's too subtle to transmit in a book or video.

 

Nothing more or less than my personal opinion, FWIW.

And don't forget the value of free advice!

[steve]

Really...........???

This is very misleading or someone who knows nothing about the history of Taiji Quan or Tai Ji Quan. Period.

 

Keep reading!

[ChiDragon]

Learn the forms, practice them diligently, feel the physical change in the body by intuition, comprehend the principles by further reading to expands one's wisdom. Now, that's enlightenment.