Tonal & Nagual

[Jox]

"The terms tonal and nagual were used in the esoteric School of don Juan Matus described in the books of Carlos Castaneda.

These terms denote two “parallel” worlds that comprise the universe — the world of material objects (tonal) and the non-material world (nagual).

We communicate with the world of matter through the so-called first awareness, i.e. the one which is carried out through the sense organs of the physical body.

To become able of cognizing the nagual, one has to develop the second awareness, that is, clairvoyance.

The term nagual had another meaning in this case: a person-leader who has mastered the nagual and is capable of acting in it and from it. In the School mentioned above, such a leader, i.e. Nagual, was don Juan Matus.

Below follow several excerpts from the book by Carlos Castaneda Tales of Power (in these excerpts the term nagual means the non-material world):

“The tonal begins at birth and ends at death, but the nagual never ends. The nagual has no limit. The nagual is where Power hovers.”

“For the nagual, there is no land, or air, or water. Therefore, the nagual glides, or flies, or does anything it can do in the time of the nagual, which is not related at all to the time of the tonal. These two things do not intersect.”

“The tonal and the nagual are two different worlds. In one you talk, in the other you act.”

(Castaneda C. — Tales of Power. "Pocket Books", N.Y., 1978)"

 

 

My question is, how do you manage your Tonal and your Nagual trough your spiritual practice and your life?

Edited December 23, 2012 by Jox

[billb]

Just curious have you developed your nagual or second awareness to the point where now you can manage it? I think Carlos spent many years with a teacher and could still not achieve this so you are assuming some pretty lofty accomplishments among the people in ttb's. I just think this is a very high accomplishment in and of itself but maybe some people here have achieved this, have you?

Edited December 24, 2012 by billb

[idiot_stimpy]

It would be interesting to see what definition don Juan Matus had of clairvoyance.

[Jox]

My point was to hear the parallel concepts to tonal and nagual from taoist point of view or terminology.

 

For example in Don Juan teaching, they split the warriors tonal and nagual on the left and right side.

So... when does this happen as result of internal alchemy practice or whatever meditation, yoga, etc...?

[manitou]

I too have spent many hours with the don Juan teachings. To me, it is the same as a third eye. I certainly envy his ability to dream and even admit others into his separate reality.

[Vmarco]

 

“For the nagual, there is no land, or air, or water. Therefore, the nagual glides, or flies, or does anything it can do in the time of the nagual, which is not related at all to the time of the tonal. These two things do not intersect.”

“The tonal and the nagual are two different worlds. In one you talk, in the other you act.”

(Castaneda C. — Tales of Power. "Pocket Books", N.Y., 1978)"

 

 

Naga, meaning Wise Serpent, is one of the few words that span both centuries and continents. For instance, Nargals were Chaldean chiefs of the Magi, and Naguals were, and are, the title of the brujos of some tribes of Mexican Indians, dating back to at least Quetzlcoatl, the Plumed Serpent.

 

For many years the Nagual in Central America would meet during Solar Apex over Lake Catemaca following the vernal equinox. I was there in 1998.

　

 

Like the biblical Abraham, who traveled west from south-central Asia’s Pakistan region (Jos 24:2–3), many groups journeyed west. One of these is said to be the Goddess-oriented Tuatha de Danann. The Tuatha de Danann honored the goddess Danu and appear to have settled for a while in Greece before going north through Germania and then across the English Channel to the Emerald Isle. With them traveled many words and the roots for new ones.

 

Before the Míl Espáine (Soldiers of Hispania) invaded Ireland, the Emerald Island was inhabited by the Tuatha De Danann; Naga's who migrated from the Swat Valley region. This Naga shamanic clan is said to have briefly settled in Greece, and used their magick to revive slain Athenians who were battling Assyrians, giving them an endless number of soldiers for battle.

 

The Aryan Naga's, like the Tuatha De Danann, were associated with Dakini’s, Faeries, Astronomy, and Arts of sorcery, magick and necromancy,...like the Mahasiddhas.

 

Some say that the Naga were present at Buddha's birth.

 

To more fully understand the nature of Naga's, ponder upon those entities associated with wings:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/20285-sky-dancers/page__hl__lilith

[doc benway]

For anyone interested in the Toltec paradigm, I'd recommend the writings of Don Miguel Ruiz. Very simple, practical, and powerful, only not as sexy as Castaneda.

The way to begin to approach the Nagual is to decide to live the life of a warrior.

The five initial weapons in your arsenal are:

- be impeccable in word and deed

- take nothing personally

- let go of expectations

- be totally committed

- believe nothing and learn to listen

Very powerful stuff if you live it.

[Vmarco]

 

- be impeccable in word and deed

 

Very powerful stuff if you live it.

 

Surely, the idea of being impeccable with our word is one of the principles of the Mexican nagual (similar in ways to the pre-Buddhist naga). This quite misunderstood principle of power and creativity has not only been embraced in many new age marketing seminars, but also among religions selling their particular brand of faith. However, that is not impeccableness. In fact, if one would step aside of their ego for a moment, they’d clearly recognize that it is impossible for a religious or belief-centered person to be impeccable with their word, because religion is nothing more than a set of beliefs.

 

Impeccable suggests being faultless, flawless, and irreproachable with one’s word. This impeccability is not only being careful in speech while communicating to the outside world, but while dialoguing with the inside as well.

 

If someone tells you, "Be impeccable with your word, for it is a gift from god", that’s being dishonest, not impeccable. Impeccable means being fully honest and truthful. They are using the idea of impeccability to mislead and deceive. All faith-based words mislead and deceive.

　

 

Recognizing the false is nearly impossible for someone who is not honest,...that is, impeccable with the words both spoken and thought.

　

 

For the most part, being impeccable with one's word is often unacceptable on TTB. For many, beliefs are more important than honesty.

　

 

A favorite quote about honest that I often use is: "Start knowing what you really know, and stop believing what you really don’t know. Somebody asks you. "Is there a God?" and you say, "Yes, God is." Remember: Do you really know? If you don’t know, please don’t say that you do. Say, "I don’t know.". . . False knowing is the enemy of true knowledge. All beliefs are false knowledge."

 

Yet so many cling to gods and divine delusions. Shakyamuni Buddha said in the Kalama Sutra, "Do not accept anything by mere tradition. . . Do not accept anything just because it accords with your scriptures. . . Do not accept anything merely because it agrees with your preconceived notions." Buddha taught irreligion; that is, to not accept "sets of belief."

 

Lao Tzu said, "Do not go about worshipping deities and religious institutions as the source of the subtle truth.....religions are desperate, clever, human inventions that rely on hypnotic manipulation of undeveloped minds."

[Vmarco]

- let go of expectations

 

Very powerful stuff if you live it.

 

Is there a more dishonest, perniciousness word than hope?

 

hope n. from ME. hopa, an expectation. 1. expectation of something desired; anticipation of some future event. 2. a guess or belief. 3. that which gives hope; a substance or object hoped for; an expected payoff.

 

No matter what level we wish to view it from, hope is false. Hope is an anticipation of the future; thus it must arise from a predisposition, a belief, and attachment to the past. Hope implies lack,...how else could we possibly define it? Hope is for something we think we don't possess.

 

How could hope ever be expressed through an Open-Mind or Open-Heart ? The belief of hope is a barrier that obscures the present. The Heart of our Essence would not express lack or need, nor see positive or negative as good or evil, beauty or blight.

 

If our attention is on seeking hope, how are we to ever experience the immediacy required to be in the Present? If we seek hope, our overall frequency pattern projects a self-manifested incompleteness, and thus can only attract to itself, that incompleteness. It is no different than a mirror in ones bathroom; if you look into the mirror with a frown, it will not reflect back a smile. In other words, our hope will never be realized as long as we hope; just like joy is never actualized if we are looking for it.

Edited December 26, 2012 by Vmarco

[Vmarco]

 

- believe nothing and learn to listen

Very powerful stuff if you live it.

 

Belief is more than merely an unquestioning acceptance of something in the absence of reason or a conviction to make palatable something that we do not understand. Beliefs hold rein on the physical body and its relationships, which, through the frequency of the belief itself, suppresses, denies, disempowers, and disconnects.

 

Beliefs and their words arise from the head. All religion, by definition, are merely sets of belief. Beliefs arise from the reptilian brain, which the Greeks called psyche. Among the Greeks, Egyptians, early Buddhists, etc., the Higher Mind was associated with the thymus.

 

Beliefs cannot recognize the Heart-Mind. There is no 'real life' without truth. Believers are lost within a falsity that they consider real, and will never be real.

 

Spiritual Friendship (Kalyana Mittata)

cannot occur through belief and faith-based agendas.

[manitou]

Wonderful stuff, VMarco and Steve. Belief and Knowledge are two entirely diffferent things. and to 'hope' is to try and pin down a particular manifestation in the future - a direct conflict with accepting All That Is. All I know for sure is that It's All Good. It's all a Manifestation, and it's all not really even happening.

[Vmarco]

 

- be totally committed

 

Very powerful stuff if you live it.

 

This thread, and its minimal response, has been an excellent tell as to the state of committment to awareness on this forum.

[GrandmasterP]

Well I for one sincerely hope that you are wrong Vmarco.

[MERCELESS ONE]

This thread, and its minimal response, has been an excellent tell as to the state of committment to awareness on this forum.

 

lmao, thats so true! ive run into that alot on here. ppls believs and how they mean more than truth. and may be the reason ppl havent reached the heights of meditation and energy that most wish to!

[MERCELESS ONE]

Well I for one sincerely hope that you are wrong Vmarco.

 

its sad but i know that hes is. awarness of onself and the world around as ive found in 95% of ppl ive come in contact with not including this site dont care about expanding awareness! ppl are content with being comfortable with what they believe, and hope for! and that you used hope you already had a preconcieved notion that ppl do want to better them selves. i know this to not to be so.

[MERCELESS ONE]

finally somones talking about the nagual way of being. the books by carlos casteneda started my awareness training that until reading this thread didnt realize how much they changed my way of thinking. after the first time i awoke within a dream i was hooked. and to this day i still use the techniques from those books.

[MERCELESS ONE]

and to answer the question, i do! the thing is, you have to accept it. and if you truly desire to master this it has to become your life. and the only way to reach mastery is to incorporate these ways into every part of your life. you cant just play with it and half ass it. you have to become it. that even means changing who your around, your friends and such. it helps the vibration of your energy to surround yourself with others that vibrate the same energy. in truth there is much that you would have to do that most arent up for. but the short answer is just live-it, and be aware of tonal and nagual...

[Seth Ananda]

My question is, how do you manage your Tonal and your Nagual trough your spiritual practice and your life?

You can only manage the Tonal. It is the sum total of the known.

The Nagual is unknown, and is the Mystery. Anything you gain from the Nagual instantly becomes part of the Tonal, so there is no 'managing' it.

But one can have a relationship to the Nagual.

 

It has to be a relationship of openness to mystery, or beginners mind.

 

One manages the Tonal best by cultivating Impeccibility, by ceasing to make assumptions, by not taking things personally, and by being present. Also cleaning up ones energy, and history are good.

 

Don Miguell Ruiz's books are a great help to this, as well as castenada's Journey to Ixtlan.

 

The more free ones energy becomes, the more one is in tune with nature, and with the simple pleasures of existence, the more often the mind becomes quiet.

 

When the mind or Internal dialogue becomes quiet, all the Information or 'thinking' from the Tonal ceases.

 

When 'Information' or mundane 'knowledge' becomes quiet, then something amazing begins to occur.

 

Silent Knowing or Silent Knowledge.

 

Silent Knowing is sometimes referred to as Gnosis.

It is Knowing outside of conceptual activity based on words. It is free of thought, and thus free of belief.

 

This is the voice of the Nagual. But as soon as you translate that Knowing into words, it is no Longer the Nagual, as it has become the Tonal.

 

The Voice of the Nagual is not just a wordless voice. That Knowing can inspire amazing feats in the world. But one needs the confidence and energy to follow it without hesitation.

 

Time spent within the Nagual will let you experience first hand, that the world is indeed a sentient and interactive being made up of, and intermeshed with sentient interactive beings... ...with an unfathomable Mystery behind everything.

 

 

These are the processes that totally changed the way I view and experience the world...

[doc benway]

Surely, the idea of being impeccable with our word is one of the principles of the Mexican nagual (similar in ways to the pre-Buddhist naga). This quite misunderstood principle of power and creativity has not only been embraced in many new age marketing seminars, but also among religions selling their particular brand of faith. However, that is not impeccableness. In fact, if one would step aside of their ego for a moment, they’d clearly recognize that it is impossible for a religious or belief-centered person to be impeccable with their word, because religion is nothing more than a set of beliefs.

 

Impeccable suggests being faultless, flawless, and irreproachable with one’s word. This impeccability is not only being careful in speech while communicating to the outside world, but while dialoguing with the inside as well.

 

If someone tells you, "Be impeccable with your word, for it is a gift from god", that’s being dishonest, not impeccable. Impeccable means being fully honest and truthful. They are using the idea of impeccability to mislead and deceive. All faith-based words mislead and deceive.

　

 

Recognizing the false is nearly impossible for someone who is not honest,...that is, impeccable with the words both spoken and thought.

　

 

For the most part, being impeccable with one's word is often unacceptable on TTB. For many, beliefs are more important than honesty.

　

 

A favorite quote about honest that I often use is: "Start knowing what you really know, and stop believing what you really don’t know. Somebody asks you. "Is there a God?" and you say, "Yes, God is." Remember: Do you really know? If you don’t know, please don’t say that you do. Say, "I don’t know.". . . False knowing is the enemy of true knowledge. All beliefs are false knowledge."

 

Yet so many cling to gods and divine delusions. Shakyamuni Buddha said in the Kalama Sutra, "Do not accept anything by mere tradition. . . Do not accept anything just because it accords with your scriptures. . . Do not accept anything merely because it agrees with your preconceived notions." Buddha taught irreligion; that is, to not accept "sets of belief."

 

Lao Tzu said, "Do not go about worshipping deities and religious institutions as the source of the subtle truth.....religions are desperate, clever, human inventions that rely on hypnotic manipulation of undeveloped minds."

Impeccable comes from pecare which means "to sin" which means to go against God. The Toltec view recognizes the non- duality of man and God and so defines impeccable as not going against oneself. It is easily misinterpreted and twisted for the purposes of exploitation but is very nicely explained in that tradition.

 

PS Thanks to everyone - very nice contributions

Edited December 27, 2012 by steve

[manitou]

 

 

Also cleaning up ones energy, and history are good.

 

 

 

 

Funny how nobody ever wants to talk about cleaning up one's energy or history. Too much work, maybe? An admission that we're needing a little inner work? This is just never talked about on this forum. I've brought this up from time to time and folks pass over it like it's just not there.

 

As far as i can see (and having worked the 12 steps for 31 years) the inner 'work' of trying to find my own character defects (although I know there are some who will challenge the word 'defects') is the singularly most important part of attaining any clarity at all. It's by wringing ourselves out andd tring our best to remove those characteristics that impede vision - selfishnesses, arrogances, mean-spiritedness, the urge to undermine another to gain stature for self ---there are so many subtle things we do to separate ourselves from Others - generally because we need to feel elevated because down deep inside we know we're deficient.

 

Although this flies in the face of the Taoist concept of 'All That Is' is just fine as it is, this is true as well. But when our minds and heart are motivated to remove impediments to joining up with the Oneness, the only way to do this is to inspect our inner selves. Maybe all the folks on this forum have already done this, and it's so basic to them that it's not even worth mentioning. But I sort of think lots of folks on this forum haven't done any self-examination at all.

 

We come to knowledge, it seems, by first aassuming it's gotten through the brain. We read, we listen, and once we compile a little knowledge the darn Ego kicks in and we become legends in our own minds. Once we see ourselves as a teacher of sorts, more often than not the mind shuts to receiving knowledge from another. this is my natural state; my Ego will sit up on its high chair and think it's running the show and how very blessed the world is to have my wisdom in it. I wish I could say otherwise, but I can't really. But what I can do is see that for what it is, merely Ego, and take the steps necessary to sidestep it, to tame it, to put it in its place. However, I do need it to keep from driving into oncoming traffic.

 

As we all have on this forum, I've read accounts of master after master who has only gotten to their place in life by a combination of the outer search and the inner search. They must work in concert, apparently. What a nearly impossible set-up this is for us! It's a real Catch-22, this path to the full monty. apparently it's all in the Balance between Knowing and Humility (which is what we are capable of obtaining if the inner work is done).

 

I just don't see how humility is reached without self-realization, which is only gotten by going within. And without humility, we have nothing but hot air.

[Vmarco]

 

Time spent within the Nagual will let you experience first hand, that the world is indeed a sentient and interactive being made up of, and intermeshed with sentient interactive beings... ...with an unfathomable Mystery behind everything.

 

 

This is typical of New Age thinking,...support and sustain sentience at all cost. Sentience is not an "unfathomable mystery",...according to Prajnaparamita it's a delusion.

 

The Bodhisattva of Compassion said, "As soon as one sense-organ returns to the source, All the six are liberated." Why would Avalokitesvara say such a thing if Seth Ananda's concept that sentient beings should be content in their illusory world as sentient beings?

 

Naguals and Nagas are a fun distraction,...did so myself in the 70's, and even read Casteneda's later works, along with those of his supporting cast. However,...why are Naguals/Nagas enemies of the Garudas.

http://keithdowman.net/books/fg.htm

 

How impeccable are Naguals? Likely very much in a relative sense,...but can the relative ever be truly impeccable? Is not an Impeccable Sentient Being an oxymoron? Sentience is a delusion. How can a delusion be meaningful?

 

My first realization of the nature of light came on Nagal Peak in 1974,....should I have stopped there? Should I have dedicated my life to the voice of the Nagual? Or should one go Further?

 

As most have no interest in truth realization,...they become tethered to belief systems. However, no belief is true.

[Apech]

I feel I should mention Nagarjuna ... Naga +Arjuna ... in the context of Nagas and Nagual etc.

[Vmarco]

I feel I should mention Nagarjuna ... Naga +Arjuna ... in the context of Nagas and Nagual etc.

 

Yes,...many interesting connections with naga.

http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/etgloss/na-ne.htm

 

The Naga in Nagarjuna gave him the wings of a feminine being. Ever read my attempt to discuss Sky Dancers?

http://thetaobums.com/topic/20285-sky-dancers/page__hl__lilith

[Vmarco]

Yes,...many interesting connections with naga.

http://www.theosocie...gloss/na-ne.htm

 

The Naga in Nagarjuna gave him the wings of a feminine being. Ever read my attempt to discuss Sky Dancers?

http://thetaobums.co...age__hl__lilith

 

Intersting that the above glossary was written a hundred years ago. Check out the word Uragas

http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/etgloss/ua-uz.htm

[Apech]

Intersting that the above glossary was written a hundred years ago. Check out the word Uragas

http://www.theosocie...gloss/ua-uz.htm

 

Good links ... thanks.

 

I am reminded of the ancient egyptian Naw serpent ... a primeval deity.

 

Also reverse the Na- ... to An- and you get Anata-sesha the seven headed serpent of Vishnu.

 

http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/etgloss/am-ani.htm