What is Jin(勁) in Tai Ji Quan with a Scientific Explanation...!?

[joeblast]

My point was that the initiating factor for Jin and the initiating factor for the conversion of ATP are one and the same. The brain may relay the signal, but where does the energy potential itself come from? It takes a certain amount of electric potential for a muscle fiber to trigger contraction - it takes a higher potential for many groups of muscles to maintain contraction. The point is the muscle-weight is only part of the equation and it is the cultivated energetic potentials that make up some of this delta-E in post 34. Part of bodybuilding's science has searched for the best ways to utilize the max amount of muscular force, they knew that most often even when you think you're putting in 100%, you really do not have the full force of 100% of your muscles contracting at any given time. Much of the differences in your comparisons are merely applied combinations of force, the ones that make sense. Carry on.

 

(The myriad lesser things I could nitpick at I will leave be.)

[ChiDragon]

My point was that the initiating factor for Jin and the initiating factor for the conversion of ATP are one and the same. The brain may relay the signal, but where does the energy potential itself come from? It takes a certain amount of electric potential for a muscle fiber to trigger contraction - it takes a higher potential for many groups of muscles to maintain contraction.

 

The purpose of this thread was to define Jin(勁) which I had done so already in my conclusion in Post #34. What is your definition of Jin in your own words.....???

 

 

"The brain may relay the signal, but where does the energy potential itself come from?"

 

Anyway, it was assumed that the "action potential" was understood for granted. Based on your explanation, I don't think you have a full understanding of the "action potential". One may have to do some further investigate on one's own and get a full understanding outside of this thread.

 

 

PS.....

I do agree what is shown in bold but it seems to me that the distinction between Jin and ATP is still not too clear in your mind.

Edited December 11, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

What initiates the the Cori cycle? (the actual process of ATP conversion.)

 

The Cori cycle was initiated under aerobic conditions the end product of glycolysis is pyruvic acid. Hence, Under aerobic conditions is not the actual process of ATP conversion. As a matter of fact, the ATP process stops here. Until the oxygen debt was paid back to the muscles, then the manufacture of ATP starts again.

 

Under the Cori cycle, the pyruvic acid turns into lactic acid due to hypoxia. The lactic acid was converted back into glucose and stored in the liver for the next ATP conversion when the oxygen was readily available again.

 

 

 

Edited to add the lactic acid into the process for clarity.

Edited December 16, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

The eight basic postures for the most effective way in Fa Jin(發勁).
1. 掤(peng) using one arm parallel to the chest, Fa Jin is by turning the waist to the left or right. It depends what the opponent was coming from. The purpose is to keep the opponent from further advancing toward you.
2. 捋)(le2) using the palm to Fa Jin.
3. 擠(ji3) using the back of the hand to Fa Jin.
4. 按(an2) using the waist with both hands as leverage to Fa Jin.
5. 採(cai3) using ten fingers to Fa Jin.
6. 挒(lie2) using both lower arms to Fa Jin.
7. 肘(zhou3) using the elbow to Fa Jin.
8. 靠(kao2) using the shoulder and chest to Fa Jin.

In order to Fa Jin(發勁), one must know what Jin(勁) is and how to develop it in the first place. Without Jin in the body, then there is no way one can Fa Jin. FYI These are the eight basic fundamental postures emphasized where the strength(Jin, 勁) was exerted. For clarification, I will rephrase them. The video has a very good explanation of what they are.

Ref: video
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=%E5%A4%AA%E6%A5%B5%E5%B1%A5+in+youtube&FORM=VIRE1#view=detail&mid=308441AA4E5DE20AD836308441AA4E5DE20AD836

Edited December 9, 2013 by ChiDragon

[opendao]

Human biochemical energy --- ATP

 

For those who study martial arts should have some of this basic knowledge.

 

Poor masters of the past, they knew nothing about ATP, but their Jing was much better... I see only physical force in all such theories and on 'supporting' videos.

 

Maybe it's better to learn Taijiquan basics first, like on this video:

 

and only then try to make theories? Btw, in Taiji Classics theories were already made by people who had practical experience and skills.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Jin is manifested in the physical world.you can see the effect on an object.

 

If one uses spiral jin and sends the opponent spinning its called spiral fa Jin.

 

If one is practicing silk reeling it is potential energy no Jin when one uses silk reeling to unwind the opponents force then it is Jin.

 

If you drink it with tonic water it is Gin

 

There are many different jins that are used in internal martial arts.

[ChiDragon]

I wonder is there any video showing someone spinning from a spiral fa jin. It would be something spectacular to see.

[fugue]

Basic skills. The building blocks of a system, each has a use. Silk- reeling was the one I had the most trouble understanding which would be the spinning motion. It is a constant smooth motion. Adjust speed as needed. The whole body should always be connected

[fugue]

Sorry got off track. Back in the good old days gravity, enertia, etc. were not understood. Jins all have a simple physics based explanation. Quite often it seems to be relax/tense the right set of muscles while keeping proper structure.

[ChiDragon]

Poor masters of the past, they knew nothing about ATP, but their Jing was much better... I see only physical force in all such theories and on 'supporting' videos.

..............

and only then try to make theories? Btw, in Taiji Classics theories were already made by people who had practical experience and skills.

 

Did you know that jin(勁) is the physical force which was generated from ATP....???

[Andrei]

I wonder is there any video showing someone spinning from a spiral fa jin. It would be something spectacular to see.

 

I don't know what you mean by spiral fajin but there is a guy that spirals his students:

 

[ChiDragon]

I don't know what you mean by spiral fajin but there is a guy that spirals his students.

 

I don't know what spiral fajin(發勁) is neither. That was not my original OP. The master was being performing fajin to his student but not spiraling. It is just plain fajin.

[Andrei]

Ok, now I've got it what vortex posted earlier. Yes, that kind of fajin is plenty in Chen style, also there is specific training with spear and 10 ft pole. Also I noticed the video with Chen Xiaowang is not functional anymore so I post it here, I just saw this whole show today. Chen Xiaowang is really tough!

 

[Andrei]

Peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lieh, zhou, kao:

 

[Andrei]

Peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lieh, zhou, kao, jin, tui, gu, pan, ding:

[NotVoid]

Authentic tai chi chuan has different 'levels' of achievement, but in the higher levels of tai chi, the 'force' of tai chi comes from developing one's internal qi to the point that you can use your internal qi to shock and unbalance the opponent in various ways. This internal force can be quite devastating when released by a real master.

 

There are various tai chi masters who have reached this sort of level, but IMO Zhu Datong is quite enjoyable to watch as he is so good natured and easy going about it all.

 

Zhu Datong demonstrating using internal qi to overcome applied force from an opponent. Watch the whole video. There are a couple of parts where the opponent appears to be getting shocked from Zhu Datong's internal qi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeodbargP8M

 

More tai chi video demos of Zhu Datong:

http://www.youtube.com/user/zirantaiji/videos

 

 

Edited June 3, 2014 by NotVoid

[Andrei]

Shi Ming

 

[Marblehead]

Peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lieh, zhou, kao, jin, tui, gu, pan, ding:

His style would be good while doing two-sword Tai Chi except that the horse stance isn't necessary in two sword.

[Andrei]

His style would be good while doing two-sword Tai Chi except that the horse stance isn't necessary in two sword.

I never saw double sword in taichi, but there is sword in his style. The purpose of the sword - beyond the obvious one - is to further develop the fajin. This is true for all weapons, and the longer the weapon or the heavier, the better development. So normally in taichi you start with the slower style, then you learn the fast style, then the sword, then the saber, then the spear, then the long pole, then the halberd. After each level attained the fajin is more powerful. Now I have to define what I understand by fajin, and although I am not a Chinese language speaker, I observed that many people use terms interchangeably. Fa li means "issue force" and fa jin means the same thing, but jin is usually used as a more subtle kind of force, or more elastic, while li is a more raw force or brute force. There are many ways to develop each kind of force in human body, but still in my book fa jin is an elastic kind of physical force based on the body segments dynamic and kinematic. I am an engineer and I can explain all these in scientific terms, but just an intellectual understanding doesn't help much.

 

 

Also, the purpose of the scarf attached to the saber or the tassels attached to the sword is to show externally what happens with the jin inside the weapon, this being used by the practitioner to learn the movement correctly. They are just training tools, but very useful ones to learn fa jin.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Andrei

[Marblehead]

This guy is pretty good. I'm not this good yet:

 

 

 

This guy is great and I will never be this good:

 

 

 

There is another video I wanted to link to but couldn't find it. The man is so good I couldn't even follow many of his moves. Maybe I'll find it some other time.

[Andrei]

The first guy is not so good, he has no structure and does not control the swords, does not keep the swords parallel or aligned, is a bit chaotic. If he would used tassels attached to the swords it would be very visible the mess. Chen Zhenlei is a great master, you can see the swords parallel, the fajin is quite visible. Although this is pretty advanced, in my opinion is better to start with only one sword in the dominant hand. Traditionally taichi is practiced only on one side - usually the right side, the right hand. Not everybody is right handed, but the reason why, is that they discovered that the brain can mirror movements performed on the left side which were learned on the right side. Anyway the goal is to become balanced on both sides, to be able to use weapons with both hands. But usually the forms because are quite complicated and consist on repetitive movements in many directions, are better remember only on one side.

 

[Marblehead]

Yeah, we agree that the first guy wasn't very good and I stated that I'm not even that good so you can imagine my level of work.

 

When I exercise, no matter what the exercise, I always work both the right and left equally. (I am right handed.) O do that so I have pretty much equal coordination and strength in both sides.

 

What got me interested in Double Sword Tai Chi in the first place was from a very old martial arts movie. One of the guys who was on the bad side but really wasn't all that bad a guy used the double sword technique and from my observation (but knowing nothing) he was really good.