help with understanding pre and post heaven unifiying with man

[spiraltao]

Could a fellow tao bum be so kind to explain the pre and post heaven concepts as simple and clearly as possible?

 

 

 

From my understanding in baguazhang we first strive to arrive at the pre heaven qi, one method is training the post heaven to return to the pre heaven. This is a yin process.

 

I pre heaven is what we also call original qi? What we were born with? Preheaven is pre birth and post heaven is post birth from which point we enter this yang world and our original qi is already starting to absorb the toxins and get more yang. if any of this in incorrect, i am not out to mislead, but asking if i undertsand this much of the pre and post heaven bodies.

 

Pre heaven is not the end, but a means is a quote i read in Dr. Yang Jwing Ming and Master Liang Shou Yu;;s book Baguazhang Theory and applications.

 

 

I don't understand the unification fo the pre and post heavens. I am asking for any help from a taoist with the time. Thanks in advance for anyone who helps!

 

BEST WISHES TO ALL

[deci belle]

Hi Jay …there are a few schools of thought here. I am not familiar with the literal terminology you are using, having only used the Complete Reality technical terms.

 

Different schools have their emphasis. In seeking answers to these very abstruse experiential events/phases/refinements, all are based on open awareness before the dichotomy of yin/yang. Those who have penetrated the subtleties are eventually able to point out the pitfalls on a personal basis, though the generalities are often sufficient as everyone experiences this according to their unique combinations.

 

You have the gist of the matter well enough. Know that it is a natural process from beginning to end. You recognize correctly that pre heaven is not the end. Entry into the inconceivable is actually the beginning of the path once one empties out openness in the aftermath of refining mercury with lead and joining the two medicines in pre heaven— but primarily your concern at this time should be using everyday ordinary situations to refine oneself.

 

First refine the self, then await the time. Sincerity and openness is like water on stone. Purity gradually dissolves the false; what is left is the real: seal this away in innocence without entertaining ideas. You be the guest and make other the host. Though one has the heart to take hearts, what gains entry is not one's own; though you do not abandon your heart, at each critical juncture, you do not take it with you. This is the nonpsychological yin convergence process of training post heaven to return to pre heaven I know.

 

As for the unification of pre and post heaven, they are one already— even now. What is involved in the process is refining the self. When one forgets body, forgets feelings, forgets mind, forgets self, forgets being, forgets time, there is a reversion.

 

Though one sees, one still does not act. Since at this time there is no person, there are no words.

 

 

 

ed note: replace "erases" with "dissolves" in the forth paragraph

Edited November 9, 2012 by deci belle

[寒月 Hanyue]

Could a fellow tao bum be so kind to explain the pre and post heaven concepts as simple and clearly as possible?

 

I don't understand the unification fo the pre and post heavens. I am asking for any help from a taoist with the time. Thanks in advance for anyone who helps!

 

 

It's not easy, and words don't do it justice.

 

I have only been taught one system that has really laid it out in a way that it all makes sense. I'm sure there are others, and their interpretations are just as valid. But most over the years sprout parts and not the whole picture with clarity. Though I wonder about the Feng Shui sources Taomeow has recommended and how it is all laid out there, maybe she'll have time to contribute to this thread.

 

Below is xian-tian (pre-heaven) and hou-tian (post-heaven) related to cultivation.

 

Please bear in mind these are just words, and it is the words that you can get hung up on, you might be surprised to realise you already know this, just not with these terms.

 

Xian-tian: "refers to before the Universe split and divided into all things. Thus xian-tian refers to what existed before there was anything, the original state of no time or space."

 

Hou-tian: "refers to after the Universe went from One to Two to All Things. Thus hou-tian refers to a reality that has shape and form, and is what we experience now."

 

Xian-tian and hou-tian are a polarity, the former is about experiencing the Dao, the latter is more about being in harmony with the Dao. They are not the same thing, but as with any polarity the division is a human construct, and Daoism's aim was to achieve both, to be aware of and experience the Dao and also be in harmony with it. This is about understanding taiji as a map.

 

Some methods of cultivation are very much in one direction or the other, going inwards (xian-tian) or going outwards (hou-tian). Others seem to start more in one direction, but actually take you the other way. So you want to make sure things are balanced. To go in, you have to go out, to go out you have to go in. The more you make of your hou-tian potential, the deeper you can go into the void the wu, xian-tian. And vice versa.

 

Hou-tian practices tend to be about you in the world, developing and improving yourself, opening your channels, extending you neiqi (inner qi) outward gathering waiqi (external qi) inward and so forth. Xian-tian practices tend to be about dantian, zhongmai and going deep inside until 'you' disappear.

 

Very simplistically, this is why you have practices of maintaining a certain 'physicalness' that enables you to sit and meditate. But both are much much more than that. It is the balance between these that is what makes Daoism Daoism, and not Buddhism or HInduism etc You want balance, it is not about going all in one direction and doing the minimum here so you can go somewhere else. You are here, this IS the Dao, you want to be in harmony with it, and realise and experience it.

 

Experience is waking up to the Dao, to the one-ness and connection. You are part of Dao. You can wake up and touch that, but not be in harmony with it. Harmony is like a fish in water, it is in harmony with the water, but not aware of it. So you want that harmony, but you also want to wake up and realise. This is diving into both xian-tian and hou-tian and not mistaking the achievements of either for the other. It's all about movement (little or small), just a shift in focal point so to speak, hence the yi jing.

 

Bagua zhang, taiji quan, xingyi quan etc as generally done will all be about developing hou-tian. It is rare, but not impossible to plug in xiantian practice into these things. Most "qigong" these days is all about hou-tian, which is why they often get the label 'for health'. My teacher explains that equating hou-tian with 'health' is not really accurate. Real neigong will be xian-tian and this is why it is not the same as most 'qigong'. Martial artists like Sun Lutang, Wang Jiwu, Hu Yaozhen, Liu Hongjie etc plugged xian-tian practices into their martial arts.

 

Again the above are only words pointing at something, not really the thing itself. I've tried to do it with out system specifics so I hope it still makes sense. There is much more depth to it all.

 

Hope this helps,

Edited November 9, 2012 by snowmonki

[spiraltao]

Thanks so much! Now it's time to chew on this stuff.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Thanks so much! Now it's time to chew on this stuff.

 

Thank my teachers, I wouldn't understand even the bit that I do without them

 

Anyway, since you asked about Baguazhang, let me add a little more.

 

The Chinese medical use/application of xian-tian and hou-tian is understood as 'pre-natal' and 'post-natal'.

 

Pre-natal: "is a reflection of xian-tian, but on the scale of our bodies and our existence...referring to the individual before it's birth, both in utero and before procreation."

 

Post-natal: "is a reflection of hou-tian, but on the scale of our bodies and our existence....referring to the individual human (body) and it's pattern of existence post birth."

 

According to Bruce Frantzis "[xiant-tian] qi practices (including bagua) attempt to reconnect with the original cosmic forces, charging the 'battery' just like it was charged while in the womb..." while "[hou-tian] qi practices are basically limited to optimising what remains of a person's original pre-birth qi."

 

The circle walking practice is considered xian-tian, while the linear practices in some styles are considered hou-tian.

 

This makes sense, because the linear practices are about fighting technique and drilling it, which is about acting and being in the world, it is outward which is hou-tian. While the circle walking is about cultivating and connection inward, xian-tian.

 

It should be noted, that many these days apparently do circle walking as hou-tian and do not put xian-tian cultivation within it.

 

Take care,

[sufidao]

Let me first say that I don't have any knowledge of practical Baguazhang. But we should guard about some misunderstandings may occur using two terms of xian tian 先天 (earlier Heaven) and hou tian hou tian 後天 (later Heaven). First of all, we should know these two terms are too old and involve with the topic of Bagua in the Yijing. When you translate the terms in pre and post Heaven, it totally transforms the nature of the teaching and makes lots of misunderstandings. As far as I know, these two terms refer to two kinds of aranngement of Bagua (eight triagrams of the Yijing) in a circle. xian tian or earlier Heaven is the arrangement ascribed to Fuxi, and the other, hou tian or later Heaven is the arrangement made by King wen. In Fuxi's exposition of Bagua, earlier Heaven arangement, Heaven conforms to south, Earth to north, and so on, but in King wen's exposition, later Heaven arrangement, Heaven conforms to northwest, Earth to southwest and so forth. Ok, lets see it in a table:

 

 

 

Earlier Heaven (Fuxi)---------------Direction---------------Later Heaven (Wen Wang)

Heaven----------------------------------South--------------------Fire

Wind----------------------------------Southwest-----------------Earth

Water-------------------------------------West--------------------Lake

Mountain------------------------------Northwest----------------Heaven

Earth------------------------------------North---------------------Water

Thunder------------------------------Northeast------------------Mountain

Fire----------------------------------------East--------------------Thunder

Lake---------------------------------Southeast--------------------Wind

 

 

 

Surely, as snowmonki stated, these two terms refer to two metaphysical states, and so relevant aspects of Daoism that, as he said, makes Daoism what it is. But I think uncertainly that these two terms in practices of Bagua Zhang must refer to some distinguishments in directions of walking or running as well.

Edited November 9, 2012 by sufidao

[寒月 Hanyue]

But I think uncertainly that these two terms in practices of Bagua Zhang must refer to some distinguishments in directions of walking or running as well.

 

The direct relationship of yi jing and the bagua to bagua zhang is a debated area. The use of the terms to signify linear movement drills (a later development in bagua zhang) over the circle walking, is a quite recent thing only found in some styles of bagua zhang.

 

How well this concept makes use of the terms they have adopted to describe it, is well anyone's guess and is certainly up for debate

 

I relate it above simply because it IS terminology that gets thrown around within bagua zhang circles (parden the pun), and as such should be addressed in case of confusion.

Best

[Shagrath]

In practical sense from my experience in energy work there is a concept of prenatal energy. Some authors refer to that energy also pre-energy (like in prehistoric), super energy (super in latin means above) or some call it also spiral energy. It is called prenatal because it is beyond concepts of yin and yang, it is energy from which yin and yang energy differentiate. Healing or activating some processes with that energy is much much more stronger than any other kind of energy treatment.

 

And then on the other side of spectrum you have normal energies and energy structures that were created in pregnancy and some after birth, that you must develop to make sure that you can later cultivate prenatal energy.

 

In meditation and spiritual growth is also important pre natal state, because it is silence, nothingness. As one shaman would say "in that state there is nothing but yet its not empty". So you also have to deal with post natal psyche. Because in order to be able to obtain prenatal state you have to deal with all sub-conscious mind, with all destructive emotions, with all mental blockages that prevent you from the state of flow.

[ChiDragon]

FYI....

xian tian 先天 (earlier Heaven) and

hou tian hou tian 後天 (later Heaven).

 

are very poor translations to begin with.

 

The proper translations:

1. xian tian 先天: earlier days

 

2. hou tian 後天: later days.

Edited November 9, 2012 by ChiDragon

[GrandmasterP]

Remedy for too much Yang is to draw Yin up from the ground via bubbling well on sole of each foot ( just behind ball of your foot, poke around til you find the tenderest spot, that's it) mix and circulate.

Pre and post etc always baffle me, never got my head round the various interpretations. Doing beats talking about.

[sufidao]

FYI....

xian tian 先天 (earlier Heaven) and

hou tian hou tian 後天 (later Heaven).

 

are very poor translations to begin with.

 

The proper translations:

1. xian tian 先天: earlier days

 

2. hou tian hou tian 後天: later days.

 

Are you sure that 天 can have the meaning of "a day" in Old Chinese?

Edited November 9, 2012 by sufidao

[GrandmasterP]

That's why I can never get my head round the theory. No knowledge of Chinese characters whatsoever.

Thank goodness it's unnecessary for successful cultivation.

[deci belle]

First of all, we should know these two terms are too old and involve with the topic of Bagua in the Yijing.

 

The unborn living awareness has never dropped into the creative; terms are relative.

 

1. What is being discussed by me are the realities, not the terms. If Jay wants to use the terms, I can adapt the living reality to them because I know what they refer to.

 

2. This is not "energy work" in any sense of the term or the reality.

 

3. Because entry into the way of inconceivability is unique for each individual's potential, using terms of any tradition, discipline or practice, whether it be literal, alchemic, or energetic doesn't matter. This fact is not transferable to actual practice, just the reality. In other words, energy work is attributable— in order to align with the unattributable, one must work with the unattributable.

 

 

ed note: fix quote and add item #3

Edited November 9, 2012 by deci belle

[GrandmasterP]

Well said.

Far too many folk get hung up on writing and talking about cultivation and then come unstuck because some are using different words or terms for the same thing and the next step is that they begin insisting it is not the same thing because the words or characters are slightly different. Best way is simply to get on and cultivate.

Edited November 9, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[sufidao]

The thing which has kept Daoism as a pure metaphysical expression of the Chinese spirit, is looking reflectively backward at its old texts and constant usage of ancients' terms. The modern pragmatist usage of this tradition has nothing in common with real Daoism but some dangerous forms which always have the potentiality of harming to its practitioners.

 

上言者下用也，下言者上用也；上言者常用也，下言者權用也。

 

"The greater words are less applicable; the lesser words are highly applicable. But the application of greater words is eternal, while that of the lesser words is temporary."

- Wenzi (文子), Chapter V, 道德.

Edited November 9, 2012 by sufidao

[GrandmasterP]

Yep racism lurks just beneath the surface of many paths.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I would think that pre-heaven body is more yang/airy/spirit, post heaven more yin/earth/water, but these words are post-heaven so they wouldn’t be worth much for pre-heavenly description(s).

 

To paraphrase Si Zi, Confucius grandson, the state of emotional equilibrium is the root from which emotional harmony arises.

I think that this Equilibrium is the pre-natal state, while this Harmony is the post-natal state

“Let the states of equilibrium and harmony exist in perfection, and a

happy order will prevail throughout heaven and earth, and all things

will be nourished and flourish.” – Si Zi

 

I believe this Confucian text was influential on many Taoist texts which were somewhat syncretistic.

Mind you, this is my own association of this Confucian text to pre-natal/heavenly and post-natal/heavenly, so please only take it as such. However, I think you can see the links in wording and ideas.

 

The Yin Fu Jing, attributed to The Yellow Emperor though possibly written after or around the time of Si Zi, has much in common to the above instruction on The Way. Both of these texts seem to be very influential in Quan Zhen Taoism.

[ChiDragon]

Are you sure that 天 can have the meaning of "a day" in Old Chinese?

 

Of course, the meaning of day(天) was borrowed from Heaven.....

How do you think the old Chinese expressed today(今天), yesterday(昨天) and tomorrow(明天).

 

In the same token, the month(月) was borrowed from the moon(月).

 

Heaven is Heaven; it doesn't make any sense to have an Early Heaven or Later Heaven. The difference of the two configurations of Bagua should be expressed as the Early Version BaGua and the Later Version Bagua.

Edited November 10, 2012 by ChiDragon

[sufidao]

Of course, the meaning of day(天) was borrowed from Heaven.....

How do you think the old Chinese expressed today(今天), yesterday(昨天) and tomorrow(明天).

 

In the same token, the month(月) was borrowed from the moon(月).

 

Heaven is Heaven; it doesn't make any sense to have an Early Heaven or Later Heaven. The difference of the two configuration of Bagua should be expressed as the Early Version BaGua and the Later Version Bagua.

 

I'm not much familiar with Old Chinese or Classical Chinese or even modern Chinese. But I think the character 天 has found its meaning as "a day" in Classical Chinese. By Old Chinese (not Classical Chinese) I mean the language of the oldest found texts, like oracle bones, the Yijing, and to some extent Laozi, Neiye, Lunyu, Mengzi and the five classics (wujing).

 

In Old Chinese, as far as I have seen, the word for "day" is commonly 日 along with its primitive and principal meaning of "Sun". 上日 means "first day", 終日 means "all day long" or maybe "everyday". And the character 今 alone has the meaning of today.

 

For example,

 

執古之道，以御今之有。 - Laozi, Ch. 14

Grasp the way of ancients,

to rule what exist today [only 今].

Or

心之憂矣、寧自今矣。- Shijing, 大雅, 瞻卬, 7.

The sorrow of my heart,

Is it [only] of today[今]?

 

為學日益，為道日損。 - Laozi, Ch. 48

Practicing knowledge, get increased each day [日],

Practicing the Dao, get decreased each day [日].

 

君子終日乾乾。 - Yijing, Qian, Line 3.

The superior man, all the day [終日], is active.

 

日中見斗。 - Yijing, Feng, Line 2.

Seeing the Dipper at midday [日中].

 

Can you mention a single phrase of Yijing, Laozi, Shijing, Zhouli, Shang Shu or any Old Chinese text using 天 in the meaning of "day"?

 

And huh,

Heaven is Heaven, True! As the earlier Heaven and the later Heaven are one and the same, the only difference is in the arrangement of gua-s: in the earlier Heaven, the first gua is the Heaven (the Chinese always begin from south), so the Heaven comes earlier than the rest. And in the later Heaven, the Heaven is not the first gua, so Heaven comes later. That's it! This simple difference, made by King Wen, caused the Zhou dynasty conquer the Shang!

Edited November 10, 2012 by sufidao

[ChiDragon]

sufidao....

 

You got a point there. It is worth something to look into. Let's see when 天 was first put into use as "day"....

 

 

"the first gua is the Heaven (the Chinese always begin from south),"

The first gua(Heaven) was on top of the Bagua was because when one looks up, that is where Heaven was. When one looks down, that's where the second gua(Earth) was at the bottom(north).

[寒月 Hanyue]

It's always interesting to see where threads end up going

 

For those saying the terms are not important or a distraction or confusing etc.

 

If you are in a lineage that is a traditional Chinese art, and it uses these terms because they are the traditional Chinese cosmology, then these terms will have to be engaged with. Hopefully your art will actually lay it all out for you rather than keep it mysterious and confusing.

 

They are however simply A way, and not THE way, they are a map and as such are meant to help you navigate the territory not get you lost. But as with ANY words/terms/maps, no they are not the thing itself, and so you should not get hung up on them, or feel that using them means you understand the deeper thing they point to any better.

 

You can fully experience and deeply know ALL they refer to and never know these terms.

 

They are simply the cosmology of the macrocosm and microcosm as laid out in old China.

 

Given that the original post and question was;

 

Could a fellow tao bum be so kind to explain the pre and post heaven concepts as simple and clearly as possible?

 

I don't understand the unification fo the pre and post heavens. I am asking for any help from a taoist with the time. Thanks in advance for anyone who helps!

 

It means we have to USE THESE TERMS, that is what was being asked. Not if they are relevant, not if they make sense, but what they are and HOW they make sense.

 

As for translations, old Chinese, classical Chinese, modern Chinese etc etc

 

The Chinese language is relative, not definitive. There is and never has been A SINGLE definition for ANY word in Chinese. The meaning comes from the context it is being used in. And meanings, as in any language do change over time.

 

If you want to understand a term used in an old text you have to look at the 'dictionaries' as close to that period as possible. See how the term was understood and used at that point in time. Otherwise you are simply projecting meanings that didn't necessarily exist at the time the author penned the text. Thank you Sufidao, the way you've laid out phrases of usage is how old dictionaries lay out context for words so you can grasp meaning.

 

However the original post mentioned a specific context, bagua zhang;

 

 

From my understanding in baguazhang we first

 

Which is not all that old in the grand scheme of things. As someone pointed out, the use in Bagua zhang today of xian-tian and hou-tian to refer to the circular or linear walking drills seems odd to them in the context of the terms being used to refer to the earlier and later bagua patterns.

 

Lets just say, bagua and bagua zhang are NOT the same thing.

 

I replied from a cultivation point of view because that is largely what was adopted into bagua zhang, it is also what most on this board are interested in. It is also from living traditions that still exist in China.

 

Chinese cosmology was worked out a long long time ago, it hasn't changed, it is what it is. It's fluidity comes through its application for contextual use. When applied to specifics and through lineages you will find minor variances. Like cooking, local flairs or variances in a dish. But it's the same dish.

 

The same Chinese words can in English mean;

 

Pre-heaven

Post-heaven

Pre-Natal

Post-Natal

Earlier-heaven

Later-heaven

Earlier-day

Later-day

 

Same words, the context they are being used in changes the inflections of their meaning. In Chinese the words don't change, but the meaning does, in English we would change the words accordingly.

 

In cultivation it is usually pre/post-heaven, in medicine it is usually pre/post-natal, in feng shui it is usually earlier/later-heaven. It is all application of the SAME concept but the aspect being used fits the context. There is no either or argument. It does however mean you can tell who really understands, because sometimes people confuse them across in translation. So you get people using pre/post-natal when they should be using something else.

 

If I ask a question about boxing, who am I going to listen to?

 

Preferably someone with time in a boxing gym, someone who had coaching, and maybe even stepped in a ring once or twice. I'll take that over someone who's spent 30 years watching boxing on tv and hitting a heavy bag in their basement.

 

So I listen to my teachers, given that I know and gratefully appreciate where their information comes from.

 

Best regards, and I hope some find this helpful

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I see my post may have caused a bit of confusion here, so I'll clarify what I was saying some more

 

I would think that pre-heaven body is more yang/airy/spirit, post heaven more yin/earth/water, but these words are post-heaven so they wouldn’t be worth much for pre-heavenly description(s).

 

In not so many words, I just mean that there is likely not so much "duality" of yin and yang with the pre-heaven body, so to say it's "this" or "that" would be misleading, even more so if someone ever used them as some kind of map.

 

To paraphrase Si Zi, Confucius grandson, the state of emotional equilibrium is the root from which emotional harmony arises.

I think that this Equilibrium is the pre-natal state, while this Harmony is the post-natal state

 

In this instance, I find pre-natal to be more useful in talking about this from a perspective of Quan Zhen Taoism (not that I am an initiate, btw) as some important Quan Zhen writing speaks about the Buddhist "original face, before you were born" and also talks about Si Zi's writing. This "original face, before you were born" and the pre-heaven state are overtly synonymous in some important Taoist writing on meditation.

 

Also from Doctrine of the Mean:

"This Equilibrium is the great root from which grow all the human actings in the world, and

this Harmony is the universal path which they all should pursue."

I'm just offering some things for consideration, that seem they really ought to be considered as they appeared around the same time the Dao De Jing was written and inevitably had influence on much of the writing that came after it.

 

 

“Let the states of equilibrium and harmony exist in perfection, and a

happy order will prevail throughout heaven and earth, and all things

will be nourished and flourish.” – Si Zi

 

I believe this Confucian text was influential on many Taoist texts which were somewhat syncretistic.

Mind you, this is my own association of this Confucian text to pre-natal/heavenly and post-natal/heavenly, so please only take it as such. However, I think you can see the links in wording and ideas.

 

The Yin Fu Jing, attributed to The Yellow Emperor though possibly written after or around the time of Si Zi, has much in common to the above instruction on The Way. Both of these texts seem to be very influential in Quan Zhen Taoism.

 

I do appreciate to hear informed and honest opinions to take into consideration. My above posts are merely for consideration, if you so choose to consider them.

 

 

Edit: further note: "The Scripture of the Great Pervader/ Ta Tung Ching" also exemplifies this influence from Doctrine of the Mean when speaking of "state of previous existence." Excuse my ignorance if I am well mistaken. These did seem worthy of bringing into the conversation.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

It seems this is to be a more proper translation to begin with:

1. xian tian 先天: early stage; early period; pre-natal; inherence; innate; natural

2. hou tian 後天: post-natal; later stage; later period

Edited November 10, 2012 by ChiDragon

[deci belle]

Chi said:

Heaven is Heaven; it doesn't make any sense to have an Early Heaven or Later Heaven. The difference of the two configurations of Bagua should be expressed as the Early Version BaGua and the Later Version Bagua.

 

This coming from a literalist who has no idea what constitutes the reality referenced by the word in a context completely alien to the good translator of the meaning of words. DAMN RIGHT IT MAKES NO SENSE TO YOU.

 

Since he has yet to realize that Reality has no meaning.

 

Then what might we do with those true words of yours, hmmmmm, dear?

 

I wish it were that I could not apply them, yet it seems all to often that it is you who cannot apply them. Pity.

[sufidao]

Have you ever thought that why do you have reason and intellect (intuitive reason)?

 

The idea that nothing is real unless I touch it, I smell it, I taste it, etc. is proper to be used in modern science.

 

And yes, a reality has no meaning as it is not applicable as well. Words have meanings; a meaning is nothing more than a means to the reality. Of course, it is possible to attain the reality of things without the aid of words, MERELY through intuition or practices (dealing with actions); the method that is all the more personal, it cannot be taught without words if you are not a Shenren. If you are, please don't use words, sit there and transfer your knowledge to me without words. Thanks in advance.