Freedom of thought

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[kaaazuo]

kaaazuo,

 

FWIIW people CAN change the beliefs that they hold --- its can be quite a challenging process AND it CAN be done... if you want I will share my story and experience with this... who know you may learn something from it and choose to change some of the beliefs you hold... others reading this may benefit from our interaction... and I may learn a bit more of the adventure I set upon a little whiles back in relation to what it takes to better dialogue with others...

 

What is FWIIW people? I am impressed with your conviction. Sure, do share your story. I am always keen to learn. You can be my professor.

 

While you are awaiting an awakening from some spell, the spell of being you... consider "be it a dream be it for real always choose the better way". So you know 'the truth' that you are an illusion... I wonder if that corresponds to the truth that be, for all I know I too could be an illusion... heck I could even be an illusion within your illusion conjured up by you! or it could be the other way around you could be an illusion within my illusion conjured up by me! Let me shift into a different domain which may help us elucidate (thats means think about :-) and this is meant more like a humorous punt at the petulant erudite that uses certain distinctions (words) --- which generally few manage to understand ) . Let us play and choose the illusions and realities to manifest from now on... "There is no freedom of thought"... OK as long as we are captive of thought - let think a bit of the thoughts we think and contemplate wisely what to do... In a more general form the premise is "There is no freedom", NOW lets wonder and think about that a bit... If could be that there is no freedom and each is destined to think and do whatever they think and do... If could be that there is freedom and some of their free will choose to think that each is destined to think and do whatever they think and do... (while also choosing to forget they made such a choice ). I had a professor who said 'argue about your limitation and they become your limitation even if you don't have such limitations'. Its like an elephant that has learned it can't escape and doesn't escape even when it could escape...

 

The point is this: think a bit of the thoughts we think and contemplate wisely what to do...

which is the truth :

-"There is no freedom",

-"There is freedom",

- 'there is freedom for those who think they are free'

 

which is the truth :

- " I am an illusion which was discovered by the Buddha"

- The Buddha discovered that making me believe I am an illusion discovered by the Buddha benefits Buddha

- I am real and free, a being created because of divine love, understanding, wisdom with a singular mind body spirit feelings and thoughts...

 

is each destined to think and do whatever they think and do...?

"I know the truth that I am an illusion ... This truth doesn't awaken me from the cognitive illusion of the self"... so why keep that illusion... rather than wonder and ponder about being awaken... or if we are asleep unable to awaken then dreaming the ultimate dream of being awake... being entrapped in the dream while directing the dream can be divine or a nightmare... depending on what the dreamer chooses to dream... I suggest to dream divine dreams...

 

BTW This mindset can change this mindset and inevitable changes the mindset ... the operating system functioning can change the operating system functioning or keep it functioning the same way.

 

Let's keep this simple. I know what a mindset is. I am not attached to any and can chuck it if it gets in the way. I have to adopt a mindset, or several, to get around in daily life for practical reasons. Right now, I am assuming the mindset of a person called Kaaazuo to converse with you. Some illusions cannot be chucked away such as the illusion of falling off a tall building or getting hit by a truck. Or the mods coming to get me if I judge your character against your wish.

 

The belief "You cannot convince the person to change his mindset or beliefs which are already installed in his hard drive"... has been proven wrong time and time again... implanting new ideas can be accomplished... care to volunteer and experience it yourself... FWIIW people CAN change the beliefs that they hold --- its can be quite a challenging process AND it CAN be done... if you want I will share my story and experience with this... who know you may learn something from it and choose to change some of the beliefs you hold...

 

Go ahead, share your story. I am always open to learning; and please feel free to form judgments - no matter how adverse -about me at any point. Should I react like a dumb beast from the lowest part of Taoist Hell, then do the right thing and beat the shit out of me. I don't want to come back as a dumb beast in the next life.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[kaaazuo]

 

For What IT Is Worth ---FWIIW

I googled it and found that it is an internet slang and there are thousands of these abbreviations like HMU, WOOT, etc. Below is from Wikionary:

FWIW

for what it's worth

for whoever is wondering

from what I've witnessed

 

I too am keen on learning and would like to share with you a true story... I will need to become sort of a guide while aware that this is a shared experience where we each learn and teach stuff to the other... Lets see if the evidence reveals that we can chuck it if it gets in the way...

 

My mindset worked on the principle of the truth and perfect way until I got involved in set of courses that induced a transformation. The perfect way involved and considered 'fallible beings' who thought to be rational while behaving quite irrationally... and other stuff... In other words the perfect system needs to consider and adapt the users capabilities... and preferences... Technical superiority does not win customers commitment... in other words being right does not guarantee that others will recognize it nor followthrough with a given course of action... I got intrigued and hooked by knowledge management (KM) discipline. The future, and present and past depends on it and I resolved to get into the field of KM... back then I got into a forum that focused on KM. I postulated that what KM managers of the time where doing did not actually address nor focus on the core of KM. I asked a simple question "where does knowledge exist"? My mind set was that knowledge only existed within a mind and there was very little stuff related to effectively help minds to grasp knowledge.

 

The mind is a metaphor. It does not exist the way a brain does. This is my belief.

Where knowledge exist lead into a dialogue about finding out where knowledge actually exists... It is not about where I, you, others think knowledge exists its about where it actually exists... there were 'different* beliefs in relation to this. Me being me I set on a course to get us to see the truth of the matter whatever that truth of the matter happened to be... if it agreed with what I held great if it disagreed with what I held great I would had learned the truth of my error and embrace what be the truth... I had a plan... we would venture into an experience and use it to learn the truth of the matter (which I was convinced had to be my position). The plan was to develop a shared belief language that could be used to determine and force a change in beliefs... and it did work... just not in the way I thought it would ... the whole experience was quite enlightening for me... unfortunately it ended when the other did not care to understand nor experience what I had learned... In a way the other chose not to continue the adventure and did not get to transcend and change the supporting beliefs...

I promise you that I will continue with the adventure to the bitter end.

I postulate that knowledge only exists within individual's mind. My counterpart postulated that knowledge exists in different forms some even independent of the mind... My idea was to create a shared language where both positions could coexist and use that shared language to expose the right and wrong position... we shared the idea that identical copies of knowledge didnt actually exists... we also shared other ideas like the position that one was right, the other was wrong... even that veracity of the statement "I am right you are wrong" was shared we each believed that 'I' was right... anyway to make a long story short that interaction lead me to the realization that the belief that there where no identical copies was dubious... and reluctantly I changed what that particular belief... I also learned how beliefs create a belief language of their own... and one ought to translate what is said from one language to another... thus when someone who is wrong tells me I am wrong it may be because I am right and to them right is wrong and wrong is right... it can be a bit confusing unless the subtleties involved are taken care of... the reasons that It was easier for me to change the belief was likely dew to being able to expand and contract without changing much... and the reason my counterpart had a difficult time was because to expand and contract would leave them where I had started and invalidate their original point... I too had to accept and invalidate my original point that one of the two was right and the other was wrong... and embrace the position that the two could be right... my counterpart was unable to embrace this position that the two could be right... because of the implications...

 

it is possible to change what one believes its just a bit complicated... even now the belief that there can't be identical copies still call to me...

 

hope this helps let me know what you perceive and what should I elaborate upon...

I get the drift. No further clarification needed. So, let’s cut out the foreplay and get to the adventure.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[kaaazuo]

 

OH hem got to tell you something... I suppose that was a bit too quick there... summarized the adventure that took me quite a while into that succinct writing... I reluctantly ended up changing a belief I held to be true... thus my claim that beliefs can be changed.

 

What was that belief you held to be true that was changed?

 

Sometimes simple words can denote quite a bit... for example 'the belief language'... the resentful will find ways to be resentful ... the peaceful will find ways to be peaceful... the wise will find ways to be wise... the same situation will be perceived differently based on the belief language used...

 

Are you referring to attitudes? Do you mean to say that a person is predisposed to perceive a matter in the way according to his attitude? For example, a pessimistic person would see the downside of any proposition; and an emotionally unstable person would view every comment as a personal attack?

 

'translate between belief languages' can be an interesting hurdle... it took me quite a while to realize that when when I am right and someone who is wrong tells me that I am wrong it means that I am right... i should thank them for confirming that I am right... when someone who is wrong tells me that I am right, well it may be that they are recognizing the truth or it may be that I am wrong and they are telling me that that I am right when in fact I am wrong... it can be a bit confusing when what isn't is considered what is and what is is considered what isn't... I prefer to simplify and consider what is to be what is and what isn't to be what isn't...

 

It would indeed be a simple matter if all things are either black or white and everyone agrees with the distinction between the two colors. Right and wrong is something else especially with Americans who celebrate the right to be different even when they are downright crazy.

 

Can you tell me one thing that you think is right? Be direct and specific. Just tell me one thing that you think is absolutely right in your view.

 

I too believe that the mind does not exists like a brain does ... the minds is a bit of a metaphor ... just like the brain is to the body the mind is to thinking... and we have not even gotten into the emotional bodies or spiritual beings or other stuff...

 

The mind cannot be a bit of a metaphor. You are wrong here.

 

The mind is either a metaphor or it is real. You are either awake or asleep. A woman is either pregnant or she is not. Both states are mutually exclusive. In stating that the mind is a metaphor, I meant that the mind is an idea, a figure of speech. The mind has nothing to do with thinking because it doesn’t exist.

 

btw the adventure does not need end bitterly ...

 

I reiterate my last words in the previous post... let me know what you perceive and what should I elaborate upon... and what considerations feedback contributions you have...

 

Rest assured, this adventure will not end bitterly because I am not emotionally unstable and pathologically defensive. If you can prove me wrong even once, I would pay you the respect I accord to the teacher of all teachers: Confucius.

 

This is the challenge.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[kaaazuo]

Kaaazuo: What was that belief you held to be true that was changed?

 

et-thoughts: That identical copies of knowledge existed in different minds. That one was right and the other was wrong.

 

K: So, the above belief that you hold to be true has changed. What is your new belief now and why did you replace the old belief with the new one?

 

 

K: Can you tell me one thing that you think is right? Be direct and specific. Just tell me one thing that you think is absolutely right in your view.

 

et: Sure God exists.

 

K: Can you define what you mean by the word “God”? Why do you think you are right in maintaining this viewpoint?

The mind cannot be a bit of a metaphor. You are wrong here.

 

 

et: Maybe the wording I used was a bit off. But the mind can be a metaphor... you claim I am wrong and I may be or I may be right...

 

K: Well, you are definitely wrong based on the definition of the word metaphor. I believe the mind is a metaphor. You either agree that the mind is a metaphor or disagree and affirm that it is not a metaphor. If you are not sure, then say so. You can also question me and ask why I believe that the mind is a metaphor and does not exist like the brain does. I have an obligation to explain the basis of my belief

 

 

et: The mind may be real and be an idea that has something to do with thinking and a bit more... it does exist...

 

K: You cannot assert that the mind exist without explaining why you hold that belief. If you do that, then it becomes a doctrine founded on blind faith. This blocks inquiry and ends all further discussion.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[kaaazuo]

et, I am afraid I cannot continue with this discussion because I am unable to follow your line of reasoning.

 

We began with my assertion that it is not possible to change a person's belief. You said that it is possible.

So, we will just have to agree to disagree - you hang onto your belief and I hold on to mine. Ok?

 

Let's move along to another point: your belief that God exists. What makes you think that Tao equates God?

 

Tao in Chinese means "way". It carries the same meaning as "do" use for various martial arts forms like Tae Kwon Do,

Hap Ki Do, Karate Do or Bruce Lee's Jeet Kwon Do. There is nothing spiritual about this word.

 

Any action that is perfectly executed is beautiful and an art form.

Someone said that the greatest of all arts is the art of living.

 

To my mind, the Tao Te Ching speaks to the art of living.

It talks about the way to live in freedom from human folly.

 

Jesus, according to the Gospels that chronicled his life, endeavored to teach about this way through his own actions.

He had the Tao, the way, the art of living.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[GrandmasterP]

You seem to be in accord.

That is good.

[PLB]

I apologize to Marblehead and et-thoughts for getting my interlocutors mixed up.

 

GrandmasterP, it is good that kaaazuo and et-thoughts can find some common ground. It seems to me, however, that the argument they are having has been playing out for centuries.

[Marblehead]

I apologize to Marblehead and et-thoughts for getting my interlocutors mixed up.

Hehehe. I have no idea what you are talking about and I am pretty sure that is good so please don't enlighten me. I'm not afraid of living in the dark.

[GrandmasterP]

Absolutely.

Those philosophers and theologians like to keep themselves busy.

Sure beats chopping wood for a nice easy living.

Boring factoid....

There has never been a single Taoist theologian, ever.

[kaaazuo]

et-thoughts: BUT REMEMBER YOU PROMISED... to continue with the adventure to the bitter end... you even said that

Should you react like a dumb beast from the lowest part of Taoist Hell, then do the right thing and beat the shit out of you.

will go get my BATANA... in the mean time lets consider the rest of your last post.

 

kaaazuo: I said (in Post No: 110) that you could beat me if I reacted like a dumb beast to any adverse judgment that you pass on me. Have I responded like a crazed lunatic going off the deep end yet? Besides, you have not even passed any judgment on me at all. So, I don’t see why you are going for your BATANA. Seems like you are behaving like the professor who nailed you.

 

et: The Tao - The way - is profoundly spiritual... the art of living - the art of doing - the art of thinking - the art of loving stem from the original perfect ways.

 

K: You are correct about the art of thinking. I cannot continue the discussion because I am unable to follow your line of reasoning. Your thinking sucks – no art. You are all over the place.

We began with my assertion that it is not possible to change a person's belief. - Indeed we did

You said that it is possible. - Indeed I said something to that effect

 

et: So, we will just have to agree to disagree - WHY? because you want to you hang onto your belief rather than recognize a different alternative as being true... let me go get my BATANA....

 

K: You see. You are telling lies. It was you who asserted that it is possible to change a person’s belief when I pointed out that this is not possible. Below is the evidence:

 

Post No: 108 by kaaazuo

The insights I gained from the interactions is that people cannot change the beliefs that they hold.

 

Post No: 109 by et

FWIIW people CAN change the beliefs that they hold --- its can be quite a challenging process AND it CAN be done... if you want I will share my story and experience with this...

 

Post No: 111 by et

it is possible to change what one believes its just a bit complicated... even now the belief that there can't be identical copies still call to me...

 

Perhaps, I should be the one to get my BATANA and beat the shit out of you.

 

et: The descriptions I see of Tao are just like the descriptions I see of God... as far as I know nothing makes me think that... well we could say God's grace makes me think that ... then again the framing is a bit curious for ultimately each chooses what to think ... based on the principle that we be free to choose what to do, think, feel, say, etc...

 

K: Each can choose what to think but that does not mean that the thinking is worth a damn. The reason why Jesus had to die on the cross is because our way of thinking is shitty and it causes us to live like ignorant beasts. There are nutjobs here who see themselves as wonderful human beings. And if I get my BATANA and beat the shit out of them, they will call the mods.

 

et: BTW "the way to live in freedom from human folly" is to follow the perfect way to live... and thats to follow the way of God... of course one would have to figure out 'what is the perfect way to live'... note that this does not say what is the perfect way to live according to me... the perfect way to live is the same thing as saying the way of God.

 

K: The perfect way to live is not to follow the way of God but to avoid the way of the Devil, or the Devil’s Tao.

 

The Tao Te Ching shows you how to do it. Chapter 1 tells us that God’s Tao cannot be perceived and warns us about all that glitter is not real eternal gold. So, every time you feel you have found the way of God, take out that BATANA and give yourself a good whack on the head! It could just straighten out your thinking.

[GrandmasterP]

Cultivation is always a journey, never a destination.

Watch out for those well advertised 'perfect way to live' hostelries along the route. They are traps to ensnare the unwary.

Many of them are called 'religions'.

[Marblehead]

There has never been a single Taoist theologian, ever.

How could there be?

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[GrandmasterP]

Now if you can 'look at others as they are' then you have a phenomenally lucrative career in Human Resources ahead of you et.

Very few can see 'themselves' with any degree of lucidity, let alone anyone else.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[GrandmasterP]

I reckon that's Xtianity there et mate, not Tao.

You can't really have 'God's Tao' without a God. Once you have a 'God' there you aint got Tao right then, the minute you say 'Look, there is my God' or 'People who believe in our God follow these commandmants' or other such religious baggage.

Bit like wanting to have your cake and eat it or saying Jesus was a Taoist...

He wasn't, ever.

More than likely he was a Buddhist/Essene but never a Taoist.

Might have sounded like one, same as we can ascribe Xtian-God aspects onto Tao... we can do whatever we want.

Even though it makes absolutely no sense to do so.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts