The emotion of apathy (whats the point, who cares, I give up, no matter how hard I try it never works, I cant be bothered" Taoism

[skydog]

Again just contemplating the emotion of apathy.

 

Apathy is saying... "Im fed up of the way things are, I wish I could change them, but I feel powerless so, I wont even bother, I am a victim of life"

 

"It also says no matter how hard I try things never go how I plan, repressed anger at life being this way and a general distrust in nature and self"

 

"Feeling that you cannot achieve your goals, so whats the point of trying, the universe doesnt like me, things arent going how I wanted, I am dissapointed and resist the flow, I resist everything"

 

Apathy is in a way good, because it shows you the futility of trying too hard.The futility of believing you are fully in control, because you are not, it sheds these illusions. Yet it makes the ego feel weak.

 

Whereas if one understands the connection with everything we have no goals/desires/no expectations/no plans and no fixed ideas and thus there is no dissapointed, whatever is is what is what is, what looks bad only looks that way to fixed ideas and is furthermore a part of the universe, when we say something is bad we are not riding the wave of tao, (well we are to a certain) extent but not to the full extent. It implies trying to change which is also part of the tao yet only part of the tao if done without effort, effort usually implies seperation from the tao, so in a way effort is part of the tao yet (still an idea) less part of the tao..

 

When one trusts in self, tao, universe, and realise that nature always gets things done but never in a hurry, for example when one spontaneously moves one heals the body, this is a prime example of the power of none doing.

 

Apathy is the desire to be in control, to have power, because of a feeling of powerlessness. So this idea comes from the feeling that we ever will have control or power, not feeling part of the universe.

[Moonbar]

This is a great topic & well posted sinansencer

 

Its a shame nobody has chimed in to discuss it it is something we all have - or will have faced within our lives - especially with regards to our long & lonely training methods.

[Marblehead]

If I ever need a god or goddess in my life for sure it would be Apathia - the goddess of Apathy. A greek goddess we don't hear much about any more.

 

And besides, as I have said numerous times before, everything matters but nothing matters. It is easy to be apathetic if nothing matters.

[skydog]

The thing with apathy is it is the lowest emotion that exists and one normally gets it after a heavy night drinking..Once I got it in mexico where Id slept with a lot of girls and felt a kind of depression about it like yeh Ive got what I wanted but whats the point of it all, whats the point in life sort of thing.

 

But the idea that life has no point is merely an idea.

[eye_of_the_storm]

I think you may have confused apathy with despair.

 

Apathy (also called impassivity or perfunctoriness) is a state of indifference, or the suppression of emotions such as concern, excitement, motivation and passion. - wiki

 

^ that sounds quite familiar...(in particular buddhism)

 

side note: the circle ascribed to Zen is very fitting considering such thinking gets one nowhere

Edited September 20, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Marblehead]

But the idea that life has no point is merely an idea.

I just happen to be reading Albert Camus right now. Indeed, his first conclusion is that human life is absurd. But the conclusion is only the beginning of what he has to say - basically, life is still worth living.

[GrandmasterP]

I can't be ersed to reply.

[GrandmasterP]

Camus.

Top Man...

that last line in The Oustder...

I surrendered myself to te sublime indifference of the univers.

 

Definitely a Taoist on the sly was ol Albie.

 

 

Why has this text got lines through it?

[Stosh]

Just accept it

Stosh

[GrandmasterP]

Healed....the lines have gone... Praise the Lord.

Pass the rattlers Deacon JoeBob.

I feels a stompin' dance a comin on.

[Taomeow]

Apathy is not an emotion in taoism. It's a symptom of qi deficiency, toxicity, stagnation, or blockage.

 

The taoist stance of not caring to get involved in the hectic activities of pursuing "fame and fortune" does not stem from apathy. Taoists view certain things as useless, futile, not worth the expenditures of emotional or physical energy to get entangled with. But toward things that they don't see this way, they tend to be quite passionate. Dedicated cultivation, practice, study of taoist arts and sciences can't happen if one is apathetic. E.g., avoiding deficiency, toxicity, stagnation or blockage -- these are things taoists are passionate about, but it is not the kind of passion that will necessarily show on the surface.

[GrandmasterP]

Others are bright and intelligent,

I alone am dull, dull,

Drifting on the ocean

Blown about endlessly

 

TTC Ch 20

 

I reckon that's one up for 'apathy'. Maybe apathy isn't Taoist emotion but etymologically ( L. apathia / Gk. apatheia "freedom from suffering, impassability,") then it has to be up there alongside the other Taoist 'attributes'.

 

 

(Discuss).

Edited September 20, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[Taomeow]

Others are bright and intelligent,

I alone am dull, dull,

Drifting on the ocean

Blown about endlessly

 

TTC Ch 20

 

I reckon that's one up for 'apathy'. Maybe apathy isn't Taoist emotion but etymologically ( L. apathia / Gk. apatheia "freedom from suffering, impassability,") then it has to be up there alongside the other Taoist 'attributes'.

 

 

(Discuss).

 

These lines are better understood in the context of taoist alchemy -- TTC has many layers of meaning, and reads differently as an alchemical text for the initiated from the way it is perceived by non-cultivators.

 

"Bright and intelligent" are the attributes of Heart Shen. "Dull" (or, in other translations, "murky," "obscure," "clouded, shrouded," "dark"), of the Kidneys-residing Zhi. If Zhi is involved in pursuing worldly affairs, Kidneys must send extra qi to Liver which will give it to Heart which will ignite the bright fire of intelligence. Laozi does not do that. He stores his Kidney qi and keeps his zhi directed inward. If one wants to gestate immortality, that's the method.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Taomeow

 

Hmm

 

Really such texts should never have been given to the uninitiated

 

what a minefield of confusion...

 

there has to be a better way...

[eye_of_the_storm]

you have all these western folk thinking for years...

 

I have to

 

Drift on the ocean and be blown about endlessly and I will attain Tao...

 

and other such things...

 

I myself became very confused by it all... trying to work it out on my own

 

I think it is time to return home

Edited September 20, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[GrandmasterP]

'May also be understood in the context of Taoist Alchemy' surely. To say 'better' implies a 'worse' when, in real terms; all readings are equally valid. TTC is neither true nor false. It simply 'is'. Any and all validity rests with the reader and each reader is different. Choosing to believe otherwise is a valid choice, but nothing more than that.

[Taomeow]

Ah but the eye of the beholder may be shrouded with ignorance and preconceptions and misconceptions and therefore see only a very partial picture or a very distorted one -- missing out on all the essentials -- or see something that seems to make no sense at all?.. and superimpose his own sense where the author had something entirely else in mind? or see something incomprehensible and simply ignore it as though it's not there?..

[GrandmasterP]

Absolutely, my wise friend. You are right.

[skydog]

hmm white wolf running on air plus others (before you edited your post) I am posting this because I know nothing about this and wish to further my understanding...refraining from attacking the person with the ideas and instead concentrate on the ideas.

[GrandmasterP]

The context here is a just-broken bamboo water bucket wherein a moment ago the moon had been reflected in the now spilled water.

Just the punchline......

 

'No water..

No moon.

Emptiness in my hand'.

[GrandmasterP]

Apologies. Edits are deleted duplicate posts. As you can see I am having technical problems. Can't currently edit those two above. Using a Kindle at home. It is far from 'good'.

[Taomeow]

Reminds me of an old joke about a drunk crawling under a lamppost at night. "What are you doing?" some passers-by ask him. "I dropped some money on that corner over there... looking for a lost twenty." "But if you dropped it on that corner, why are you looking for it here?" "Are you stupid? I can't see anything in the dark over there, here I have some light!"

 

Perhaps the moon that was reflecting in that lamentably spilled bucket wasn't the moon at all?.. Perhaps it was the reflection of the same street light?.. And if so, why not spill it and start afresh -- new bucket, fresh water, real moon?

 

TTC is an alchemical text behind a political pamphlet behind a traditional "wise man's musings" literary form that existed long before it was written. There's more layers, but at least these three need to be discerned before any "new and improved" ones are superimposed and interpreted ad lib. Without such discernment, of course anyone is free to read anything into what Laozi or whoever wrote it never had in mind. Is it "better" to see through the topmost layer of sediment left by dozens of non-taoist translators and non-taoist researchers and non-taoist aficionados? I think it is. I dunno. I would have little use for this book if it really said what most people believe it says.

 

Apathy is a symptom addressed by the Yellow Emperor's classic. Can't do much about this being a fact.

 

Don't bite my finger, bite the moon -- then tell me if it's really made of cheese.

[eye_of_the_storm]

In terms of better... + home ( I am unsure if GM was referring to my use of the term better?)

 

I mean a return to western philosophy and mysticism

 

conducive to my own mind / culture etc (in my own quest)

Edited September 21, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[eye_of_the_storm]

'May also be understood in the context of Taoist Alchemy' surely. To say 'better' implies a 'worse' when, in real terms; all readings are equally valid. TTC is neither true nor false. It simply 'is'. Any and all validity rests with the reader and each reader is different. Choosing to believe otherwise is a valid choice, but nothing more than that.

 

Quite an elaborate way to say nothing at all

 

Consider too Lao Tzu ...the Tao that can be spoken of is not the Tao... yet all he does is speak of it? haha

 

+ if he was so resigned to the Way... why did he leave?

 

As you say better/ worse there is no difference... if your gov, country, people etc... descend into corruption, war, famine etc - one should be content and let and be.

 

In terms of intelligence and being dull - isn't he purported to have out thought Confucius on every occassion?

Edited September 21, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[GrandmasterP]

No disrespect intended but from what limited aquaintance one has had with former alchemical cultivators the two I know well both enjoy their reincarnations this time round as domestic pets far and away more than whatever fun they had beng alchemists. Far too small a set to extrapolate generalities but there you have it.

TTC 'means' exactly what you read it to mean. Everyones' copy of TTC does the same.

Convincing others of a particular reading may well constitute a lineage but it does not necessarily constitute veracity.

'True believers' and their converts are always the most zealous.

Zeal to a Taoist is like hard work. We can watch it all day.