Different groups in the Understanding of Chi Kung

[steve]

 

Your tossing a bone here... I get it... It was not cured... I discovered I do not just have a dislocation but a break. A bone-setter cannot always reconnect a break. There is a truism in this...

Bone-setters can never reconnect a break. The best they can do is optimize the alignment and conditions for healing to occur.

Healing of bone is as good an example of Zi Ran as I can think of. It is "of itself so." No intervention needed. Even when we speak of things like magnetic stimulation, medical manipulation, and surgical manipulation, we are just creating the best possible environment. It is you who heal your bones.

[Ya Mu]

Bone-setters can never reconnect a break. The best they can do is optimize the alignment and conditions for healing to occur.

Healing of bone is as good an example of Zi Ran as I can think of. It is "of itself so." No intervention needed. Even when we speak of things like magnetic stimulation, medical manipulation, and surgical manipulation, we are just creating the best possible environment. It is you who heal your bones.

Healing bone breaks is within the system of medical qigong I teach and practice. I have seen many cases that did very well; in fact have never seen it not work. Usually speeds up the healing process by a significant order of magnitude. Ideal is combining bone-setting (if it is required - to do it when not required could/most probably would be traumatic) with medical qigong.

 

A qigong practitioner can self-run qi through the break, and that can help, but it certainly is not the same as having medical qigong applied due to the energy potential difference.

[Birch]

hmmm....

In order for one to practice Chi Kung, one has to be convinced that Chi Kung is good for the health. By believing in that it might work, so, one will practice it and to experience it. Another words, without having any kind of beliefs, I don't think anyone would just start practicing it. Therefore, without knowing how and why Chi Kung works, one's faith was strictly relied upon what one has been told by the instructor.

So how does a person start by getting convinced?

I was hoping for a more detailled discussion on the relationships between belief and experience. Suppose for another thread some other time.

[ChiDragon]

If what you say here is true, that means that it is impossible to practice Qigong an abide by Wu Wei at the same time...

 

Yes, your are correct about that. Qigong is physical and Wu Wei is philosophical. Thus they must be applied accordingly. However, QiGong does more good than harm to the body which has no conflict with the definition of Wu Wei.

Edited January 21, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

So how does a person start by getting convinced?

I was hoping for a more detailled discussion on the relationships between belief and experience. Suppose for another thread some other time.

 

Most of the time, when a person has some kind of illness, this person start finding ways to cure it. It is the eager to heal was the convincing part.

[steve]

Healing bone breaks is within the system of medical qigong I teach and practice. I have seen many cases that did very well; in fact have never seen it not work. Usually speeds up the healing process by a significant order of magnitude. Ideal is combining bone-setting (if it is required - to do it when not required could/most probably would be traumatic) with medical qigong.

 

A qigong practitioner can self-run qi through the break, and that can help, but it certainly is not the same as having medical qigong applied due to the energy potential difference.

I wrote a long response and deleted it.

It's bound to come across as more negative than I would like.

If you have any interest in discussing this by PM, please drop me a line.

I have a lot of interest and experience when it comes to bone healing.

Be well

[ChiDragon]

Sorry that I asked about the health condition of somebody and causing a big twist in the thread. However, it's OK and let Nature take its course....

Edited January 21, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Ya Mu]

So how does a person start by getting convinced?

I was hoping for a more detailled discussion on the relationships between belief and experience. Suppose for another thread some other time.

I guess it may should be another topic but it is listed in this thread as "belief" is needed.

 

My experience is that belief is absolutely not needed. If a person practices the belief aspect will certainly change. However, there is a slight conundrum that most probably a person would not practice if they didn't believe it would do something. Therefore it would be a true statement for the majority of people. But not for ALL people. Some people will practice to see what happens even if they don't believe it will work.

 

I know also that for medical qigong, people absolutely do not have to believe it will work; it still works fine on them.

[zerostao]

I wrote a long response and deleted it.

It's bound to come across as more negative than I would like.

If you have any interest in discussing this by PM, please drop me a line.

I have a lot of interest and experience when it comes to bone healing.

Be well

 

i am disapointed that you decided to delete your post.

here we had 2 extremely knowledgeable practioners engaging in open conversation for the benefit of bums. (and for their own benefit as well)

then you decide to withdraw?

[Birch]

i am disapointed that you decided to delete your post.

here we had 2 extremely knowledgeable practioners engaging in open conversation for the benefit of bums. (and for their own benefit as well)

then you decide to withdraw?

Agreed ZT!

 

Ya Mu, i believe (sic) that I have some experience with it working despite my conscious belief. Can one even have 'unconscious' beliefs anyway?

 

The 'believe' folks would fall into that New Age affirmation/fake until one makes (which then technically does not require belief after the fact).

 

Chi D, is it possible that people move towards qi-gong because other things just don't work?

[ChiDragon]

Chi D, is it possible that people move towards qi-gong because other things just don't work?

 

Yes, it is possible. Then, it raises many questions.

 

Questions based on the scenario:

1. Is the person believe that Chi Kung might work?

2. Is the person just want to try it without believing it because someone said that Chi Kung works?

3. Is the person believed in the person who said that Chi Kung works but still doubtful?

 

In anyone of these cases, the person would be practiced blindly and get less effective results. IMO If a person put his/her heart into it, then the practice would be more beneficial and effective. I think people may not understand it fully, but have faith in the practice would get good results. Indeed, that is what I have in mind about Group 1.

[Birch]

Ok, I'm back in camp 2:-)

 

What does that mean Chi D?

[Jetsun]

In anyone of these cases, the person would be practiced blindly and get less effective results. IMO If a person put his/her heart into it, then the practice would be more beneficial and effective.

 

The problem is if you expect a result and it doesn't arrive then it produces stress or discouragement. If you have no or few expectations then whatever arrives is a bonus or a gift.

[Ya Mu]

I wrote a long response and deleted it.

It's bound to come across as more negative than I would like.

If you have any interest in discussing this by PM, please drop me a line.

I have a lot of interest and experience when it comes to bone healing.

Be well

Yes, be best in another topic or privately as bone healing can be a complicated subject. I am not on here much but always respond to emails. If anyone wishes to start a topic on it I will try to get by and comment.

[zerostao]

Yes, be best in another topic or privately as bone healing can be a complicated subject. I am not on here much but always respond to emails. If anyone wishes to start a topic on it I will try to get by and comment.

 

 

thats cool you guys, really none of the rest of us were interested in that subject anyways. way too complicated for the rest of us to follow.

i do give Ya Mu the benefit of the doubt , as he may not have seen Steve's original post. and certainly anyone can go back and edit their posts. i have done it myself.

i didnt find Steve's original post to have any negativity. just some good substance and good questions.

i can go back to a thread about cartoon ponies or take a break from TTB.

[dawei]

Sorry that I asked about the health condition of somebody and causing a big twist in the thread. However, it's OK and let Nature take its course....

That you asked that is probably much more Wu Wei then frequently telling us all that your following Wu Wei; I don't think it is natural to proclaim what one is doing.

 

And your comments spawned many great follow-ups by many members. Healing and bone-setting is a great topic. As would be whether one needs to believe to do Qigong... it is NOT required. People do it just to do it and still get results. I can get a non-believer to feel qi flow... they will then believe... of course believing gives some added intention but for practice, just let a person practice and experience. And -K- is right.. experience is enough proof. That was ancient science at work.

 

Steve: I said "a bone-setter cannot always reconnect a bone". I recognize that a bone, to reconnect, needs to 'mend together'. Nobody can force that mending. I am not going to categorically state what a bone-setting can or cannot do. So I leave it open to the universe to show us. I had a man move my spine bones and I had both western and eastern spinal surgeons say it is not possible to do it... I have x-rays to show it. One spinal surgeon in china felt we were just trying to trick him and he stormed out of the consultation when we showed him that the before and after x-ray was from HIS hospital. We had proved to him the impossible (to his belief system).

 

I probably agree with your point; for a broken bone to mend, it must be re-attached and no bone-setting can really do that....

 

Ya MU brings up the important point of bone healing... which I completely agree with. I think we are three are not so far apart in our acceptance of bone-setting and healing. The grave problem is when a bone is completely broken and truly needs re-attachment. I found that I have that problem... and actually in two places...

[Birch]

Then there's the 'opposite' problem where bones that ought not to be fused together get that way.

I was pondering what keeps bones apart and I pondered that muscle-tension holding them apart could be something. I had a low-back injury a while back and no amount of chiropractice (bone-setting;-)) would resolve it. So something that gets the relevant muscles to stop holding on and the bones apart, I'm thinking.

[dawei]

Then there's the 'opposite' problem where bones that ought not to be fused together get that way.

I was pondering what keeps bones apart and I pondered that muscle-tension holding them apart could be something. I had a low-back injury a while back and no amount of chiropractice (bone-setting;-)) would resolve it. So something that gets the relevant muscles to stop holding on and the bones apart, I'm thinking.

Maybe you could clarify more... but I am thinking about bones which are meant to be together since that is by design... if they break, they should be re-attached.

 

Where is an example of a break which should not be re-attached?

 

I have a 'floating break' in my tailbone which is said to be of no issue... no need to re-connect. Maybe That is true... but when I do certain qigong exercises, I feel energy stuck in my tailbone.

 

So maybe the general advice from an orthopedic surgeon that this tailbone break is a non-issue... is a big issue in energy work? I just don't know.

[dawei]

I had a low-back injury a while back and no amount of chiropractice (bone-setting;-)) would resolve it. So something that gets the relevant muscles to stop holding on and the bones apart, I'm thinking.

Based on my recent experience... I now see that chiropractors know very little about the back. My chiropractor was a state university college specialist to the sports teams... and now doing his private practice... and has the exact bone dislodgement as I have... and he told me he spent years researching to understand what he had... He is as qualified as anyone possible...

 

But I find that he really does not know anything about the back. The Guy I meet in china had no formal training. No clinical work... just a family of 500+ years passing down their training... And he could truly move a bone.. not just crack it. I went through 5 treatments and each one required 2 weeks of recovery. Cracking is child's play... moving a bone is something you will find no western doctor can believe is possible... it is very possible... in fact, it is too possible and obviously easy to do... we're stuck with the lowest level doctors.

[Birch]

Maybe you could clarify more... but I am thinking about bones which are meant to be together since that is by design... if they break, they should be re-attached.

 

Where is an example of a break which should not be re-attached?

 

I have a 'floating break' in my tailbone which is said to be of no issue... no need to re-connect. Maybe That is true... but when I do certain qigong exercises, I feel energy stuck in my tailbone.

 

So maybe the general advice from an orthopedic surgeon that this tailbone break is a non-issue... is a big issue in energy work? I just don't know.

I meant that the muscles that are holding are holding bones that ought to be together apart, sorry!

The "opposite" is seen in stuff like spinal compression injuries where verterbrae fuse and plain old bone spurs.

The best thing I read on here about bones' relationship to muscle was "floating, not stacked". But IME we carry ourselves as if we were a stack of bones. Damn you early medical models!

There was another book mentioned here about 'anatomy trains' I think. It got into that stuff.

Also, I have to wonder about sitting practice if one has an injury like that.

[Ya Mu]

thats cool you guys, really none of the rest of us were interested in that subject anyways. way too complicated for the rest of us to follow.

i do give Ya Mu the benefit of the doubt , as he may not have seen Steve's original post. and certainly anyone can go back and edit their posts. i have done it myself.

i didnt find Steve's original post to have any negativity. just some good substance and good questions.

i can go back to a thread about cartoon ponies or take a break from TTB.

LOL, I didn't even know he had posted until I saw your post, much less what his thoughts were.

 

I did not mean that the subject is far too complicated for TTBers but that it could get into a real depth and folks without any A&P may not find it interesting.

Actually the doing of it is pretty easy once a person has the background and training.

I was attempting to open up an invitation to start another thread since I thought this subject to really derail this thread so how about we do that? I will start it.

Don't want you to have to read threads on cartoon ponies

[Protector]

 

Don't want you to have to read threads on cartoon ponies

 

[Ya Mu]

Based on my recent experience... I now see that chiropractors know very little about the back. My chiropractor was a state university college specialist to the sports teams... and now doing his private practice... and has the exact bone dislodgement as I have... and he told me he spent years researching to understand what he had... He is as qualified as anyone possible...

 

But I find that he really does not know anything about the back. The Guy I meet in china had no formal training. No clinical work... just a family of 500+ years passing down their training... And he could truly move a bone.. not just crack it. I went through 5 treatments and each one required 2 weeks of recovery. Cracking is child's play... moving a bone is something you will find no western doctor can believe is possible... it is very possible... in fact, it is too possible and obviously easy to do... we're stuck with the lowest level doctors.

This mirrors my findings.

I started another thread on bone healing if you want to contribute.

[dawei]

I meant that the muscles that are holding are holding bones that ought to be together apart, sorry!

The "opposite" is seen in stuff like spinal compression injuries where verterbrae fuse and plain old bone spurs.

The best thing I read on here about bones' relationship to muscle was "floating, not stacked". But IME we carry ourselves as if we were a stack of bones. Damn you early medical models!

There was another book mentioned here about 'anatomy trains' I think. It got into that stuff.

Also, I have to wonder about sitting practice if one has an injury like that.

Hi K,

 

I read with interest your post... but not sure where it is going.. that is ok. We have a kindred spirit to exchange thoughts.

 

Once there is a 'break', I now truly feel for the person who has this. But the break may be slight or not severe. In my case, it is dislodged and expected and cannot be simply relocated. There is heavy discussion I could relate to this but I'll close for now. I'd like to hear more of your thoughts.

[zerostao]

LOL, I didn't even know he had posted until I saw your post, much less what his thoughts were.

 

I did not mean that the subject is far too complicated for TTBers but that it could get into a real depth and folks without any A&P may not find it interesting.

Actually the doing of it is pretty easy once a person has the background and training.

I was attempting to open up an invitation to start another thread since I thought this subject to really derail this thread so how about we do that? I will start it.

Don't want you to have to read threads on cartoon ponies

 

 

thank you Ya Mu