What is Zazen...?

[steve]

It's cool.

You have your books, I have my teacher and my practice.

We are both happy.

Be well.

[Bubbles]

I see, I had been convicted as the guilty party that was not experienced in Daoist (or Zen) meditation and quoting from books. Oh, well...!!!

 

How do you know what kind of books that I'm reading. FYI, all the literature that I read are consistent in what I am practicing. I understand it very well. It is immaterial who one learned from. However, I made my comparison based upon how one conveys the message of what he knows or learned.

 

Some westeners have been to Japan and practiced Zen meditation there, in Zen temples, living the life of Japanese monks for months and years. So we have books, but we have also experienced people. A number of these people have been recognized by Japanese Zen masters as real zen practitioners.

 

Some westeners have been to China and practiced Zuowang there, with Daoists masters, living their life. Some of them have been also scholars with a very very good command of English language and Chinese language. Some of them have been recognized by these Daoists as real practitioners and have been initiated into a Taoist lineage and received register.So we have some real people practicing Zuowang, translating real Daoist texts from the Daoist canon that speaks about their real daily practice.

 

As an example, you can read L.Kohn's translation of Sima Chengzhen Zuowang lun

I uploaded the table of contents as an attachment.

 

Do you realize that the separation between East and West on that matter has been virtually non existent today because the Daoist scholars/practitioners of both side work together?

 

So when you keep on coming back on and on with the language barrier complaint song, with the West misleaded by Western mind frame complaint song; you are fooling yourself.

 

You may ponder some time about whether you are unconsciously led by a desire of being the unique and only one who hold a so called truth about Daoism. I am afraid your Daoism is not the Daoism that has been studied/practiced by people (CHINESE AND WESTERNERS) who know more about it than anyone else here. These people are our reference here and let me repeat: they form an international community.

There is no conspiracy against you personally, and most of the people who interact with you are from different places, and don't know each other but we are basically in the same line: it should make you wonder..

 

But instead of that, you choose to withdraw behind your books and claim that the truth is there for you, a truth that no one but you can reach.

What a delirium, man!

Sitting in oblivion- table of contents.pdf

Edited December 28, 2011 by bubbles

[JustARandomPanda]

Exactly!

And trying to understand Daoist meditation and cultivation through reading books and learning concepts is equally worthless.

 

If you want to know zazen, you must practice zazen.

It is very simple to learn.

 

If you want to know Daojia Jingzuo, you must find a teacher.

Much more complex, but no more difficult than zazen.

Reading books on the subject will not help you to gain the skill that arises from the practices nor make you an authority.

My teacher carefully distinguishes between practitioners and scholars...

One hour of proper meditation is infinitely more instructive than reading everything ever written about it.

Reading about meditation is as beneficial to the spirit as reading a menu is to satisfying hunger...

 

 

Well this is depressing to hear for somebody who is too poor to afford a teacher of any kind. Books are the only method I can afford.

 

[steve]

Well this is depressing to hear for somebody who is too poor to afford a teacher of any kind. Books are the only method I can afford.

 

It's very inexpensive to learn meditation from a good teacher.

Visit just about any sangha of any kind and you can learn.

There are also some nice audio presentations (Peter Fenner's is one is really admire).

The rest is up to you.

 

Daoist meditation is another thing altogether.

Traditionally, it has been difficult to be accepted by a credible teacher and, once accepted, you either need to pay a lot of money or you need to dedicate your life to him as his disciple.

It was not so casual as it is here in the West today and even in China, the majority of the people who are teaching today lack credibility.

Much of the good stuff was driven out of the country, deep underground, or into the grave by the cultural revolution.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Ha. Just read the source texts and you'll see lots and lots of clarifying, from true original masters, of how the simple has been made complicated by so many popular "teachers" of the day. Sit, relax the body and let the mind relax until you just -are-, with a clear mind that is still but not drowsy. Sit in this way for half an hour twice a day. After a while it all makes sense and no teacher can make this happen for you. It just happens. That's how it works. That's why it works. When you get to this point you have a beautiful and rewarding practice for yourself. To learn how to heal other people and various other things, yes, definitely a teacher should be sought. But the personal practice I would say is learned better by reading source texts than getting partial information from teachers who are apt to complicate the simple and embellish the necessity of their presence.

 

That said, if you can find a true master, and you have a good understanding already, like any teacher they might take you leaps and bounds further in their particular art. But, instructions on personal practice is abundant in generously clear writings by the masters of the masters of the masters of the masters, and they didn't write it to confuse people, quite the opposite actually, it's usually written to clarify the teaching and practice so that people can practice correctly with these instructions. Many blessings to Thomas and J.C. Cleary, Eva Wong, and other diligent translators of such texts......

Edited December 28, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[steve]

Well this is depressing to hear for somebody who is too poor to afford a teacher of any kind. Books are the only method I can afford.

 

To be clear, I also want to mention that I don't mean to say that you cannot learn anything from books.

What is important is that you practice. Books can be a very valuable resource and source of information.

But what counts is what we do with that information.

If we allow the brain to tell itself that "I understand what the author is stating here therefore I understand meditation" that is a disservice.

It's like Qigong. If I read books about Qigong and thoroughly understand the theory and principles and memorize different movements and postures and breathing patterns I may consider myself to be an authority in Qigong. And I could even write a book about it and have others consider me an authority. And I would have derived absolutely no health or energetic benefits of any sort from that because I've never practiced Qigong. Meditation is just like that.

That's really what I'm trying to say.

[Mark Foote]

[RyanO]

Mark thanks for bumping I'm enjoying the thread and the various articles people have posted.

 

I'm really interested especially in the parallels of zuowang and zazen. Think I'll have to check out Livia Kohn's book.

[Taomeow]

Mark thanks for bumping I'm enjoying the thread and the various articles people have posted.

 

I'm really interested especially in the parallels of zuowang and zazen. Think I'll have to check out Livia Kohn's book.

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/19929-zuowang/

[RyanO]

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/19929-zuowang/

 

Thanks!

[Ish]

I would like to reproduce a passage written by Master Wang Chongyang:

 

On Sitting

Sitting does not mean physically sitting still with the eyes closed.

This is artificial sitting. True sitting requires that the mind be unstirring as a mountain all the time, whatever you are doing, in all action and repose.

Shut off the four gates - eyes, ears, mouth, and nose - and do not let external scenes get inside. As long as there is the slightest though of motion or stillness, this is not what I call quiet sitting.

Those who can sit quietly in the real sense may be physically present in the material world, but their names are already in the ranks of immortals.

It is not necessary for them to call on others, for the century of work of the saints and sages in the body is fulfilled, and they shed the shell to climb to reality; a pill of elixir is made, and the spirit roams throughout the universe.

 

 

There's also 2 passages on "Overcoming the Mind" and "Refining the Nature", these are all found in Opening the Dragon Gate.

Im not sure if they can be found online, i'll type them up if someone doesnt have the book.