What is Taoism (Daoism)?

[Lao Tzu]

I believe that the concepts "religion" [religare or union with some divinity or divine power] and "philosophy" [love of reflection] are Western concepts. As such, they are inadequate as a description of an Eastern perspective, since they come with lots of connotations that do not hold for Eastern contexts. The problem is that it is really difficult, if not impossible, to be "outside" of our contexts. [i am assuming that almost everyone here come from Western perspectives]. So, if we cannot escape this, then Taoism can be both a religion and a philosophy. Coming from Western perspectives, my experience studying these topics taught me that what we look for, we find (Psychology calls it "priming").

 

[Edit] Forgot to mention: Exceptions from Western perspectives may be ChiDragon and LaoTzu, from this forum.

 

What do you both think of my opinions expressed here?

Taoism is a English word. In chinese dictionary, Taoism can be a religion or a philosophy.

[ChiDragon]

Taoism is a English word. In chinese dictionary, Taoism can be a religion or a philosophy.

Chinese has no such term as "Taoism". It is either a religion or philosophy. I would like to invent tho words for the study of Tao philosophy(道學) like "Taology" and "Taoligion" for the Tao religion(道教). Of course, I'm only day dreaming.......

[Protector]

Taoism is a religion, a philosophy, a religion/philosophy, and neither

[steve]

The philosophy involves politics and the religion doesn't....

Oh no, that is not true.

True religion is our individual search inside to find "our true self" as the OP put it.

Everything else (contained within religion) is politics....

 

But to get back to the OP's question -

Daoism, for me, is about becoming an authentic human being.

[Stigweard]

Hey Chi Dragon ... enough of the silliness with splitting Daojiao 道教 and Daojia 道家. This is a modern fabrication that has ironically arisen from Western Protestant study of Chinese culture in the 19th C.

 

It is pure and simple BS.

 

Daojiao was used in the Mozi to designate Confucian thought as early as the Warring States (402-221 BCE). It was then used by Buddhists to refer to their tradition. It was only in the 5th or 6th century that the formalization of the disparate traditions of Chinese indigenous culture began using the term to denote an unique religious identity. And even then the term Daojiao and Daojia was used interchangeably.

 

Sometimes Daojia was used to reference the texts of the tradition, sometimes to refer to the community that practised the texts. There is absolutely no way for anyone to make a clear designation of: Daojiao 道教 equals the religion and Daojia 道家 equals the philosophy.

 

So please, please, please ... enough!

 

It then follows that Taoism is the holistic spectrum of Chinese indigenous ontology that INCLUDES the philosophy, the rituals, the gods and goddesses, the practices, the texts, the sages ... EVERYTHING !!!

 

Yet at it's heart and soul, it is as Steve says:

 

"Daoism, for me, is about becoming an authentic human being."

[ChiDragon]

...................................

 

 

Edited to add:

 

Daojiao 道教 and Daojia 道家 were then, but it is now. And now-now it is a difference between east and west. A new notion: "Daoism, for me, is about becoming an authentic human being."

 

Ok...I'll agree to stop all OUR BS to have

天下太平 ... Tian Xia Tai Ping

"Great Peace Under Heaven"

 

 

PS...

However, I do regret a term such as BS was used in a Taoist discussion environment before a mutual agreement was reached....!!!

Edited December 23, 2011 by ChiDragon

[julianlaboy]

 

PS...

However, I do regret a term such as BS was used in a Taoist discussion environment before a mutual agreement was reached....!!!

 

I agree, it was kind of aggressive. But, he supports the "becoming an authentic human being" thing, so he probably did not meant any harm.

 

And I also agree with sinfest when he said that "Taoism is a religion, a philosophy, a religion/philosophy, and neither". I repeat, we will find the things we search for. "Taoism", "religion" and "philosophy" have origins and definitions, and because of those they are bounded. Taoist-type of thinking goes beyond origins and definitions because it is unbounded. At least, that is my opinion and interpretation.

[Thunder_Gooch]

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/21954-meditation-is-not-a-good-way-for-practising/page__view__findpost__p__312042

 

As I mention here, Huston Smith author of one of the best world religion's textbooks I know of, describes Taoism as being in 3 separate camps, they are not mutually exclusive.

 

1. Philosophical Taoism

 

It is a way for living your life.

 

2. Religious Taoism

 

Chinese folk religion, superstition, magick and rituals. Things like coinswords, fu's and magickal rituals and such.

 

3. Energetic schools of Taoism, that devote themselves to the study of neigong, neidan, etc.

 

 

In each of these camps there are thousands of different schools some so radically different from one another it would seem the term Taoism itself wouldn't even apply.

 

It is hard to define Taoism as a single term.

 

 

Can it be a philosophy? Yes. Can it be a religion? Yes. Can it not be a religion? Yes. Can it be a system of internal martial arts and meditation you practice to grow closer to the Tao? Yes. Can it be all three? Yes.

 

If you want to get philosophical I view the Tao as the energy which drives the rotation of galaxy's as well as the movement of particles in the atoms of my body, and their subatomic constituents. The movement of all that exists, the change and transformation of all that exists. It is the heartbeat of the living universe. This energy flows through every corner of existence itself, it powers all thought, all perception, all consciousnesses, it is consciousness, it is the reality and universe we perceive.

 

Meditation is a tool for observing the workings of your own mind, for advancing yourself spiritually, for health, for martial application, for a million other things.

 

You can spend your life observing the universe/tao in a normal state of consciousness but I don't think you are going to get very far along the path. It's like walking cross country when you have the option to use a motorcycle.

 

Meditation can be a very powerful tool, please don't overlook it.

Edited December 24, 2011 by More_Pie_Guy

[ChiDragon]

1. I agree, it was kind of aggressive. But, he supports the "becoming an authentic human being" thing, so he probably did not meant any harm.

 

2. And I also agree with sinfest when he said that "Taoism is a religion, a philosophy, a religion/philosophy, and neither". I repeat, we will find the things we search for. "Taoism", "religion" and "philosophy" have origins and definitions, and because of those they are bounded. Taoist-type of thinking goes beyond origins and definitions because it is unbounded. At least, that is my opinion and interpretation.

 

1. Yes, no harm done. Yes, but it is not tolerable in a Taoist environment if we were considered it is such an environment.

 

2. It is true. I do agree with you 100%. However, if we say what it is to begin with then we would have been saved lots of arguments. Anyway, I think this happening was due to a linguistic dilemma.

Edited December 24, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Stigweard]

LOL ChiDragon ... it is ironic that the term "not tolerable" is entering into a Taoist discussion at all wouldn't you think?

 

From the Urban Dictionary:

 

bullshit (commonly abbreviated as BS): A blatant lie, a flagrant untruth, an obvious falicy.

 

The notion that "Daojiao 道教 equals the religion and Daojia 道家 equals the philosophy" is most definitely a "A blatant lie, a flagrant untruth, an obvious falicy" ... therefore my word usage, though a little coarse, is correct.

 

Again such a classification of terms did not exist prior to the incursion of Protestant missionaries during the 19th C (these missionaries were heavily influenced by the Ming and Qing Confucian scholars). Therefore insisting on this separatist classification of Daojia/Daojiao is conforming to an external description of the tradition (meaning it is how the biased Confucians and westerners viewed Taoism and not how Taoists viewed themselves).

 

Also to be highlighted is that this sort of "naming" and "classifying" is exactly what Laozi was warning against ... it creates too much separatism, conceptualization, and confusion. Best just to let it go and adopt a more holistic view.

 

Always central to the discussion is Dao 道 ... Is Dao a philosophical concept? Is Dao a mystical phenomena?

 

It is the human endeavour to comprehend and find union with the subtle mystery of universal life that gives rise to all the philosophical tenets found in the ancient texts. It is also the exact same endeavour that gives rise to all the mystical practices found amongst the differing Taoist traditions.

 

So regardless of how you see it and regardless of your approach of inclination, there is only Dao and your human endeavour to discover union with the subtle universal essence.

 

The rest is just the dust that gets in your eyes.

Edited December 25, 2011 by Stigweard

[ChiDragon]

Always central to the discussion is Dao 道 ... Is Dao a philosophical concept? Is Dao a mystical phenomena?

 

Tao itself is not a philosophy concept but only the principles presented in the Tao Te Ching is philosophy. Tao is not even a mystical phenomena. LaoTze was the one who created Tao and made it mystical.

[Protector]

Tao itself is not a philosophy concept but only the principles presented in the Tao Te Ching is philosophy. Tao is not even a mystical phenomena. LaoTze was the one who created Tao and made it mystical.

 

When Tao stops being mystical, it looses it's nature and stops being Tao.

It makes itself mystical and... no one invented it to begin with, not even him

[Stigweard]

Tao itself is not a philosophy concept but only the principles presented in the Tao Te Ching is philosophy. Tao is not even a mystical phenomena. LaoTze was the one who created Tao and made it mystical.

???

 

What? Are you saying that Laozi created Dao 道 ?? Or maybe you are saying he was the first to use the term Dao 道??

[ChiDragon]

???

 

What? Are you saying that Laozi created Dao 道 ?? Or maybe you are saying he was the first to use the term Dao 道??

 

The reason I said that was based on the description as defined in the TTC. The character "Tao" always have been existed but the people did not use it to mean the same way as LoaTze had described. What I am saying was that Lao Tze used the character to describe his own definition of Tao. His meaning of Tao is completely different from the definition of the ordinary people.

[Protector]

What does China has to do with Tao?

[ChiDragon]

When Tao stops being mystical, it looses it's nature and stops being Tao.

It makes itself mystical and... no one invented it to begin with, not even him

If LaoTze did not introduce Tao in the TTC, then how would we that know the mystical Tao ever existed....???...

[ChiDragon]

What does China has to do with Tao?

道

 

Tao is a Chinese character and was describe in a document originated from China. Whatever that means.....

[Protector]

So he named a Tao that cannot be named, eh

If we actually knew about it, this thread wouldn't exist

Just giving it a name creates more confusion about what it is, this philosophy/religion/neither shouldn't exist to understand the real Tao, or at least it would make things easier

Actually, I don't think Tao exists even now

It lives in nonexistence where words and ego can't reach it, and from where it can share itself with the world without obstructions

[ChiDragon]

So he named a Tao that cannot be named, eh

If we actually knew about it, this thread wouldn't exist

Just giving it a name creates more confusion about what it is, this philosophy/religion/neither shouldn't exist to understand the real Tao, or at least it would make things easier

Actually, I don't think Tao exists even now

It lives in nonexistence where words and ego can't reach it, and from where it can share itself with the world without obstructions

Actually LoaTze did not name Tao purposely, he only borrowed the Character to describe Tao for his convenience. It say so in at least one of the chapters. I don't have time to go into it now. I have to prepare to go to a family dinner. Some might called it a X'mas dinner.....

[Protector]

Let's forget about Tao altogether then

[dawei]

LaoTze was the one who created Tao and made it mystical.

That's one of the most absurd things I've ever seen in print...

 

The characterization of Dao as LZ describes is something he borrows from those before him... and he says that throughout the DDJ.

 

If one locks themselves up in a room and only looks out a window and describes the world, we get this kind of explanation of Dao.

 

For those who need some explanation: The "room" is the DDJ and so Don't look for a complete understanding of Dao from the DDJ... It is but a small speck of understanding; as humans are a small speck to the great unfolding.

[Lao Tzu]

Let's forget about Tao altogether then

You can do that only after you have lived in Dao.

[dawei]

You can do that only after you have lived in Dao.

If lived... then there is nothing to "do"... It is all immaterial as if it does not exist... so words, instructions, advice on the 'way' is "greek" to one...

 

I am often surprised at the amount of talk that conveys "what to DO"... DOING is intrinsic (Zi Ran); There is no need to talk about it... Talking is like internet babble...

[Lao Tzu]

If lived... then there is nothing to "do"... It is all immaterial as if it does not exist... so words, instructions, advice on the 'way' is "greek" to one...

 

I am often surprised at the amount of talk that conveys "what to DO"... DOING is intrinsic (Zi Ran); There is no need to talk about it... Talking is like internet babble...

Yes, but we must say it, so we have to use the word "do".

So, no matter what we are talking, it is fine if you understand what is behind the words.

[dawei]

Yes, but we must say it, so we have to use the word "do".

So, no matter what we are talking, it is fine if you understand what is behind the words.

I personally prefer to know what is behind the "doing"... then there are no words needed. There is obviously a different perspective going on here; one of talking and one of doing; and one of silently doing... each choices their path. To each their own.