What Is Non-Duality ?

[Marblehead]

"...we are present, no time, no space"

 

Hey MH, a suggestion if you will (?) consider all time and and all space recognition as a prerequisite sychronization before wading into further gobbledy-gook...

 

 

Well, you know that I am going to add my "however" and then express my gobbledy-gook.

 

But actually, no, I can't consider that because until I have attained the state of wu wei there is time/space and after attaining this state there is no recognition of any thing.

 

A paradox.

[Marblehead]

Greetings..

 

For the love of simplicity, stop the word vomit!!

 

But I enjoy discussing this concept. Where's my vomit bucket???

[Simple_Jack]

Since I have been studying Buddhists texts since 1972, and full time since the 80's, four years of which in a university setting, I find your post quite peculiar.

 

As you did not address any of the alleged "misinformation", I'm not sure whether to assume it to be diatribe, sophomoric nonsense, or identify your problem.

 

So not to mislead anyone (as many, many others do), I was very very cautious in my first 25 years in Kagyu Buddhist studies. Of course, those of the Lesser Vehicle, Theravadans, often get upset with dialogues on the Direct or Short Path.

 

You could leave your ad hominem ("Please, if your gonna spout the "Buddhist" shit, at least study the material and present it accurately") as it is,...or, if you're genuinely concerned about those you judge to be misleading,...if you're honest enough,...to dialogue on it.

 

V

There are inconsistencies here and there. Too much to comment on. Though your posts are a little better now, compared to when you first started posting here.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

But I enjoy discussing this concept. Where's my vomit bucket???

Hi MH: That's the difference! you enjoy "discussing", but.. far too many people are here to advance their particular agendas, and there is no usefulness in their agenda for discussions that do not add support to their agenda..

 

Be well..

[3bob]

Well, you know that I am going to add my "however" and then express my gobbledy-gook.

 

But actually, no, I can't consider that because until I have attained the state of wu wei there is time/space and after attaining this state there is no recognition of any thing.

 

A paradox.

 

I'd say there is no future attainment that is coming down the road, the past and the future are all just one big bundle right now, although to conditioned mind they appear to be spread out over time, for only now is fast enough to stand still yet still seeing everything and no-thing.

 

Om

 

p.s. which is just gobbledy-gook from a 3d perspective

Edited December 24, 2011 by 3bob

[Simple_Jack]

Ah,...your attachments to Zen indoctrinations is not very good Zen,...Although your indoctrinator may be pleased.

 

To say that "conceptual mind-chatter isn't the problem"...is interesting. For nearly everyone, the sense organ of thinking, the 6th sense, is the same as the other 5 senses, in that they cannot recognize stillness or the (gateless) gate of non-duality. I would suspect that Lao Tzu didn't mentally masterbate his way into recognizing Tao,...any more than Tilopa use thinking to recognize Undivided Light.

 

On the other hand,...for a professed conceptual mind-chatter as yourself, I'd have guess such a person may be interested in other ways to point to the eternal Tao,...perhaps in ways that were not developed for people from 2500 years ago.

 

I fully agree,..."There is no starting point, no goal, nothing to attain" Unfortunately, very few grasp what that points to,...for example, many New Agers talk about "beinging in the presence"...but they presume that the perceived present is the present. There is no Present in time. If "no goal" is seen conceptually, it will not be understood.

 

I often say, and irrefutably so,...that no one can understand Who they are, without realizing When they are. Of course, this is a maddening for those attached to their senses for their identity,...and thus their response or attack at such a dialogue is predictable.

 

V

Whoops, Buddha actually taught for 49 years not 40 years (I'm a hypocrite VMarco! )

 

Don't know what you're getting at about the Zen comment, but whatever. Haven't read any of Suzuki's material, but that quote was appropriate to what I was talking about.

 

Anyways, what I mean is that the discriminatory thoughts themselves are not the root problem. People get lost by focusing on the "branches" so to speak, instead of getting at the "root" of the problem. What I used to do and what TzuJanLi advocates is the karmic seeds of inherent and dualistic views creating yet another duality of subject/object. There isn't the experiential understanding of what Milarepa said: "Thoughts are great awareness."

 

Without the insights into the nature of experience: Saying to "let go," of any conceptual ideas, notions, beliefs, whatever, to experience "pure awareness" and to "Just Let Be" is in itself ignorance stemming from inherent and dualistic views. In fact any form of "letting go" without the insight into the non-dual, emptiness aspect of experience, is just the karmic seeds of inherent and dualistic views manifesting itself yet again. This is nothing more than a contrived "contraction" or "holding" disguised as "letting go." To state that in order to experience reality in a non-dualistic fashion by abiding in some sort of mental state or mental realm (such as the example I illustrated above) would be "going out of Zen" so to speak. This is still modifying experience in order to arrive at non-dual Presence. There is still an inherent "agent" a "doer" which creates the duality of a subject and object of experience.

 

This is still not the natural and effortless way, which is the "self-liberation" of a subject/object dichotomy in each passing moment...which is spontaneous response to whatever conditions arise. Of course, first we have to "arrive" at the point where any sort of conceptual framework, any views of inherency in persons and phenomena, any sort of "ground" for experience is continually destroyed from moment to moment. Without this, spontaneity...The fearless and uncontrived experiencing of whatever arises i.e spontaneous perfection of experience in each moment; won't be natural and effortless due to an inherent framework (which operates even on a non-conceptual level) which divides experience into a subject/object dichotomy. An "agent" or "doer" which links each experience will keep manifesting itself. Whatever is experienced won't "self-release" effortlessly of their own accord. Due to a inherent and dualistic framework for experience, people miss the fact that this has always been so...That whatever arises according to causes and conditions is "naturally-so." That experience in each moment, is in itself naturally self-perfected.

 

A good example of this is the Cloth Bag Monk of historical Ch'an. He expounded Ch'an by using a cloth bag he carried around with him, that when asked what is the Buddhadharma: He would drop the bag. If they understood he would laugh with joy. If they didn't, he would just pick the bag up and leave. No matter whether the cloth bag is dropped or picked up: Either way, it has always just been this.

[Aaron]

Whoops, Buddha actually taught for 49 years not 40 years (I'm a hypocrite VMarco! )

 

Don't know what you're getting at about the Zen comment, but whatever. Haven't read any of Suzuki's material, but that quote was appropriate to what I was talking about.

 

Anyways, what I mean is that the discriminatory thoughts themselves are not the root problem. People get lost by focusing on the "branches" so to speak, instead of getting at the "root" of the problem. What I used to do and what TzuJanLi advocates is the karmic seeds of inherent and dualistic views creating yet another duality of subject/object. There isn't the experiential understanding of what Milarepa said: "Thoughts are great awareness."

 

Without the insights into the nature of experience: Saying to "let go," of any conceptual ideas, notions, beliefs, whatever, to experience "pure awareness" and to "Just Let Be" is in itself ignorance stemming from inherent and dualistic views. In fact any form of "letting go" without the insight into the non-dual, emptiness aspect of experience, is just the karmic seeds of inherent and dualistic views manifesting itself yet again. This is nothing more than a contrived "contraction" or "holding" disguised as "letting go." To state that in order to experience reality in a non-dualistic fashion by abiding in some sort of mental state or mental realm (such as the example I illustrated above) would be "going out of Zen" so to speak. This is still modifying experience in order to arrive at non-dual Presence. There is still an inherent "agent" a "doer" which creates the duality of a subject and object of experience.

 

This is still not the natural and effortless way, which is the "self-liberation" of a subject/object dichotomy in each passing moment...which is spontaneous response to whatever conditions arise. Of course, first we have to "arrive" at the point where any sort of conceptual framework, any views of inherency in persons and phenomena, any sort of "ground" for experience is continually destroyed from moment to moment. Without this, spontaneity...The fearless and uncontrived experiencing of whatever arises i.e spontaneous perfection of experience in each moment; won't be natural and effortless due to an inherent framework (which operates even on a non-conceptual level) which divides experience into a subject/object dichotomy. An "agent" or "doer" which links each experience will keep manifesting itself. Whatever is experienced won't "self-release" effortlessly of their own accord. Due to a inherent and dualistic framework for experience, people miss the fact that this has always been so...That whatever arises according to causes and conditions is "naturally-so." That experience in each moment, is in itself naturally self-perfected.

 

A good example of this is the Cloth Bag Monk of historical Ch'an. He expounded Ch'an by using a cloth bag he carried around with him, that when asked what is the Buddhadharma: He would drop the bag. If they understood he would laugh with joy. If they didn't, he would just pick the bag up and leave. No matter whether the cloth bag is dropped or picked up: Either way, it has always just been this.

 

I have to agree with you here Jack, one cannot understand non-duality without first understanding duality. I also don't feel that Taoism and Buddhism lead people astray in regards to understanding non-duality, but rather, like any dogma or doctrine, teach the people that practice to view it in a specific way. The problem with experiencing non-duality is that the experience can only be loosely described, since it transcends the physical senses and also thought, so to have the experience and then come back and try to explain it, is like trying to describe the color red to a blind person. You can say it isn't black, green, yellow, or blue, but that doesn't really help. You can even say it's like an emotion, but that's not true either, after awhile you figure out that there's really no good way to describe it, so you come up with something that seems passable and move on.

 

My own experiences with non-duality were unnerving, in the sense that it shook my preconception of what I thought the world was, I figured out in a moment of deep meditation that the world consisted of something else, and that if I tried I could sense it (for lack of a better word) everywhere I went, whether it was a stadium packed with people or walking to my mailbox alone. This sensation did nothing to remove me from "this world" because so long as I am, I am a part of this world. That's why I believe they say, "thoughts are great awareness", because regardless of your experience, what allows you to have that awareness is the self that observes it objectively. In the same way I have a hard time with the notion of complete detachment, simply because being in the same room with someone or something, looking at that someone or something, attaches you to it. So in that sense non-duality exists, but the mere fact I'm breathing means I am living in an existence based within duality.

 

In the end discussing these things seems an awful lot like mental masturbation, which is one of the reasons I took a break for the past couple of days to think (less) about it. I think that one does not have to come to a complete awareness of the stillness that exists, whether you call it Tao, Light, or Bodhidharma, rather you need to come to an understanding of the basic tenants, so that compassion can blossom within.

 

Anyways, that's my take on it lately, but I'll leave it to the experts to debate non-duality further.

 

Aaron

 

edited for grammar.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

Greetings..

 

 

Hi MH: That's the difference! you enjoy "discussing", but.. far too many people are here to advance their particular agendas, and there is no usefulness in their agenda for discussions that do not add support to their agenda..

 

Be well..

 

Hehehe. But you do notice that I get my opinions and understandings into the threads regardless even when I have to inject them upside down and backwards.

 

I do understand what you are saying and I know it can be very boring for many.

[Marblehead]

I'd say there is no future attainment that is coming down the road, the past and the future are all just one big bundle right now, although to conditioned mind they appear to be spread out over time, for only now is fast enough to stand still yet still seeing everything and no-thing.

 

Om

 

p.s. which is just gobbledy-gook from a 3d perspective

 

Nice seeing you cheer up a bit. I was really concerned that you had somehow become depressed lately.

 

Yep. It all boils down to our individual perspective, I guess.

 

I do try to live in the 'now'. But in raw reality the past and the future do effect how I will respond to things in my 'now'.

 

The earth goes 'round and we have dawn and dusk and the variations between the two. Our life is that way too; except we go 'round only once unless we are Buddhist. (Hehehe. Had to add that, you know.)

[Marblehead]

... creating yet another duality of subject/object. ...

 

I had a thought when I read this.

 

If we could just live in objective reality we would be beyond dualities and I think our life would be much happier.

[Bubbles]

If we could just live in objective reality we would be beyond dualities and I think our life would be much happier.

 

Yes!

Edited December 24, 2011 by bubbles

[Vmarco]

 

If we could just live in objective reality we would be beyond dualities and I think our life would be much happier.

 

If you mean that if people would live fully for Others (object-ive reality),...yes, the illusion would be much happier, and would trigger a deeper realiztion,...beyond Subject and Object. Subjects that are attached to an object-ive reality cannot experience the Present. All objects are in the past.

 

All objects are divided light or duality ("all matter is frozen or slowed down light." David Bohm),...no object can be "seen" in the Present (Non-duality).

 

A Buddha is simultaneously in the Present and among maya (which is associated with Dharmakaya), because she has realized the reverse flow of forward moving things, thus comes back into herself simultaneously as she goes out (because she has recognized that Form is Empty, and Empty is Form), and thus her, and what is considered an object for those in the past, are the same,...neither subject nor object. Subjects and objects only perceive to exist in duality.

 

However, 100% focus on Objects or Other, is actually the dissolution of Objects and Other. Just as all fear dissolves by letting go of all hope. Thus I do agree with your premise,...the focus on living in a totally objective reality would precipitate Direct Awareness of our predicament, and uncover the Dharma Gate of Presence.

 

V

[Marblehead]

Thus I do agree with your premise,...

 

Yeah, but you had to do it with your Buddhist translation though. Hehehe.

 

I think what you said about a Buddha can also be said about a Taoist Sage if we look only at the bare bones.

 

Just out of curiosity, what caused you to pick up the concept of light as opposed to staying with energy? Please don't write a book for me, okay? Hehehe. Just a nice, short, simple explanation. If you would?

[Vmarco]

[Marblehead]

Realization of Undivided Light (non-duality), for me, ...

V

 

Thanks.

[3bob]

Nice seeing you cheer up a bit. I was really concerned that you had somehow become depressed lately.

 

Yep. It all boils down to our individual perspective, I guess.

 

I do try to live in the 'now'. But in raw reality the past and the future do effect how I will respond to things in my 'now'.

 

The earth goes 'round and we have dawn and dusk and the variations between the two. Our life is that way too; except we go 'round only once unless we are Buddhist. (Hehehe. Had to add that, you know.)

 

The very young Buddhist schools (2500 years is less than an eyeblink) borrowed ideas like that from the old schools. (Hehehe)

Edited December 25, 2011 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

The very young Buddhist schools (2500 years is less than an eyeblink) borrowed ideas like that from the old schools. (Hehehe)

 

Hehehe. Yeah, I've been told that before.

[Marblehead]

And BTW, I would like to thank Lifeforce for starting this interesting thread. (Sure, we have gone off his topic a long time ago but it is still a very active thread.

[xabir2005]

If you mean that if people would live fully for Others (object-ive reality),...yes, the illusion would be much happier, and would trigger a deeper realiztion,...beyond Subject and Object. Subjects that are attached to an object-ive reality cannot experience the Present. All objects are in the past.

 

All objects are divided light or duality ("all matter is frozen or slowed down light." David Bohm),...no object can be "seen" in the Present (Non-duality).

 

A Buddha is simultaneously in the Present and among maya (which is associated with Dharmakaya), because she has realized the reverse flow of forward moving things, thus comes back into herself simultaneously as she goes out (because she has recognized that Form is Empty, and Empty is Form), and thus her, and what is considered an object for those in the past, are the same,...neither subject nor object. Subjects and objects only perceive to exist in duality.

 

However, 100% focus on Objects or Other, is actually the dissolution of Objects and Other. Just as all fear dissolves by letting go of all hope. Thus I do agree with your premise,...the focus on living in a totally objective reality would precipitate Direct Awareness of our predicament, and uncover the Dharma Gate of Presence.

 

V

You talk about no subject and object yet say that the six senses are not the light which is precisely the division of Subject and Object. Unless you can see the 6 senses as none other than the undivided light, you will not have a direct realization of this. I was like you (having realized the Light yet dividing the six senses from the undivided light) until a realization late last year.

 

When you can realize what Buddha said in Shurangama Sutra here you would have realized non-duality:

 

"Ananda, you have not yet understood that all the defiling objects that appear, all the illusory, ephemeral phenomena, spring up in the very spot where they also come to an end. Their phenomena aspects are illusory and false, but their nature is in truth the bright substance of wonderful enlightenment. Thus it is throughout, up to the five skandhas and the six entrances, to the twelve places and the eighteen realms; the union and mixture of various causes and conditions account for their illusory and false existence, and the separation and dispersion of the causes and conditions result in their illusory and false extinction. Who would have thought that production and extinction, coming and going are fundamentally the eternal wonderful light of the Tathagata, the unmoving, all-pervading perfection, the wonderful nature of True Suchness! If within the true and eternal nature one seeks coming and going, confusion and enlightenment, or birth and death, one will never find them."

 

.

.

.

 

"You still have not realized that in the Treasury of the Tathagata, the nature of form is true emptiness and the nature of emptiness is true form. That fundamental purity pervades the Dharma Realm. Beings’ minds absorb itaccording to their capacity to know. Whatever manifests does so in compliance with karma. Ignorant of that fact, people of the world are so deluded as to assign its origin to causes and conditions or to spontaneity. These mistakes, which arise from the discriminations and reasoning processes of the mind, are nothing but the play of empty and meaningless words."

Edited December 25, 2011 by xabir2005

[guruyoga]

This thread seems to be all about Buddhism or at least currently has been turned into a Buddhist thread. Its place is more in the Buddhist sub forum than here.

[xabir2005]

This thread seems to be all about Buddhism or at least currently has been turned into a Buddhist thread. Its place is more in the Buddhist sub forum than here.

I disagree. This thread does not belong to Buddhist category since it is not a topic perculiar of Buddhism, and is an open discussion with people of different perspectives.

Edited December 25, 2011 by xabir2005

[Marblehead]

This thread seems to be all about Buddhism or at least currently has been turned into a Buddhist thread. Its place is more in the Buddhist sub forum than here.

 

I hear what you are saying but I don't really agree. I just read Xabir's post to Vmarco. Wow!!! Yeah, that's Buddhist talk. But then, Xabir is Buddhist. Well, so is Vmarco. But we know I'm not one of those animals.

 

I agree with Xabir, which is something I sometimes get to do, that 'Non-duality' is a concept that exists in many different belief systems.

 

It is just that I ran out of anything to say for now and I don't want to renew any long-standing disagreements right now.

 

Anyhow, I hope my Buddhist friends get their illusions straightened out. Those illusions can be dangerous!

 

Undivided light. I, personally, like all the pretty, different colors but that's just me.

[3bob]

You talk about no subject and object yet say that the six senses are not the light which is precisely the division of Subject and Object. Unless you can see the 6 senses as none other than the undivided light, you will not have a direct realization of this. I was like you (having realized the Light yet dividing the six senses from the undivided light) until a realization late last year.

 

When you can realize what Buddha said in Shurangama Sutra here you would have realized non-duality:

 

"Ananda, you have not yet understood that all the defiling objects that appear, all the illusory, ephemeral phenomena, spring up in the very spot where they also come to an end. Their phenomena aspects are illusory and false, but their nature is in truth the bright substance of wonderful enlightenment. Thus it is throughout, up to the five skandhas and the six entrances, to the twelve places and the eighteen realms; the union and mixture of various causes and conditions account for their illusory and false existence, and the separation and dispersion of the causes and conditions result in their illusory and false extinction. Who would have thought that production and extinction, coming and going are fundamentally the eternal wonderful light of the Tathagata, the unmoving, all-pervading perfection, the wonderful nature of True Suchness! If within the true and eternal nature one seeks coming and going, confusion and enlightenment, or birth and death, one will never find them."

.

 

"You still have not realized that in the Treasury of the Tathagata, the nature of form is true emptiness and the nature of emptiness is true form. That fundamental purity pervades the Dharma Realm. Beings’ minds absorb itaccording to their capacity to know. Whatever manifests does so in compliance with karma. Ignorant of that fact, people of the world are so deluded as to assign its origin to causes and conditions or to spontaneity. These mistakes, which arise from the discriminations and reasoning processes of the mind, are nothing but the play of empty and meaningless words."

 

Xabir, It seems you would (or could) blow many "Buddhist" mind-sets with sayings such as: "...the unmoving, all-pervading perfection, the wonderful nature of True Suchness! If within the true and eternal nature..." Anyway that is a plausible deduction from such considering all the water that has passed under the bridge...namely a mind blowing given from one of their own.

 

Om

Edited December 25, 2011 by 3bob

[xabir2005]

[Ish]

"Voidness that does not radiate is relative, but voidness which radiates is absolute"

Does this refer to the non-duality of emptiness and form?