What reincarnates?

[Lucky7Strikes]

Reincarnation is a concept created by thought.

Self is a concept created by thought.

Non-self is a concept created by thought.

The five elements are a concept create by thought.

 

Zen invites us to transcend concepts created by thought.

Well put. Most of us here don't have a clue and the rest is mere speculation. These guesses just cloud our minds needlessly. Imo,intellectual analysis is rather futile regarding this issue of essentially, "who am I?"

Edited December 11, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[Patrick Brown]

[Informer]

Can you demonstrate scientifically that "your" individual atoms have memory?

Or are you referring to memory as an aggregate of all or a portion of your atoms?

 

[Informer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdso-Ub-4AU

[steve]

For me, this does not demonstrate that an atom has memory nor is it very scientific.

It depends on qualitative and subjective interpretations of images of water droplets.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdso-Ub-4AU

Neither does this...

And BTW, I do tend to agree that consciousness goes beyond the brain but memory and consciousness are two very different things.

I will acknowledge that the possibility exists that memory transcends the brain but I don't think it's accurate to say that this has been demonstrated using the scientific method. I'll also acknowledge that there is no good understanding as to where memory resides, whether inside or outside of the brain.

[steve]

Yes reincarnation is a fact

That's a gratuitous and ambiguous assertion.

Reincarnation is a term that is open to a wide variety of definitions and interpretations.

[Patrick Brown]

[Patrick Brown]

I do tend to agree that consciousness goes beyond the brain but memory and consciousness are two very different things.

Genetic memory perhaps? Kinda like an algorithm but you need the key! I've opened the door and then I closed it because it's just too much information. Suffice to say I learnt a lot but it's not for the masses and is truly esoteric meaning it runs beyond conceptual thought.

 

 

Consciousness? Perhaps that's all there is but again it's relative!

 

No I'm not breeding!

[steve]

[Informer]

For me, this does not demonstrate that an atom has memory nor is it very scientific.

It depends on qualitative and subjective interpretations of images of water droplets.

 

 

 

Neither does this...

And BTW, I do tend to agree that consciousness goes beyond the brain but memory and consciousness are two very different things.

I will acknowledge that the possibility exists that memory transcends the brain but I don't think it's accurate to say that this has been demonstrated using the scientific method. I'll also acknowledge that there is no good understanding as to where memory resides, whether inside or outside of the brain.

 

The fact that you have any memory at all isn't proof to you that atoms have the probability of memory in some form?

[Patrick Brown]

it means one has to step into the unknown, unaided, and have the confidence to face what is there

That's why I'm a hippie (Bodhisattva, Yes I took the vow), with love anything is possible! Just looked in the mirror and had to kiss myself because...

[3bob]

Without the eons of aid at every turn from their Mother there would be no actualized Buddhas.

[Patrick Brown]

Without the eons of aid at every turn from their Mother there would be no actualized Buddhas.

Yes but Tara is an aspect of Buddha! Women can reach enlightenment.

[C T]

The Buddhas in the world-systems in the Ten Directions

Bring to mind the perfection of wisdom as their Mother.

The Saviors of the world who were in the past,

and also are now in the Ten Directions,

have issued from Her, and so will the future Ones be.

She is the One who shows this world [for what it is] ~

She is the genetrix, the Mother of the Buddhas.

[effilang]

In zen there is no self but if the body is just made up of the five elements what reincarnates?

 

From what i understand, we have the Body, Spirit and the Soul. Where the spirit is a function of the mind and possibly vice-versa, or the ego if you will. I think this is what they refer to in zen as the self.

 

You should discern between the Mind/Spirit and the Soul, the latter of those which is what i think reincarnates.

The former is illusory and is created anew with the possession of every body. The soul on the other hand is eternal, but it's potential is blocked into full realization by the conceptions of the Mind/Spirit/Ego.

 

That is why to discover or bring forth the soul, or original/true nature, in order that it is our primary form of cognition and existence, we must eradicate the state of the Spirit/Mind/Ego. In a sense dethroning the Ego, with the aim of elevating our center of function directly to the soul and not via the Mind.

 

If you think of the soul as a light, then enlightenment is bringing your state of function to the light. Bringing the darkness of the ego forth, so that it may be illuminated by the original purity of the soul and release you from the sensual bonds of the sight, taste, sound, feeling, smell and thought, which rouse the emotions and heart promoting the function of the lesser mind.

 

I suppose this is why almost every form of meditation begins with paying attention to yourself. Because when you become an OBSERVER, you are no longer the thought, or the sense, you abstract yourself from it's reality and choose to no longer flow in it's stream. This is when you notice that you are in fact SOMETHING other than the senses, when you can perceive the sense without BEING the sense. The more you do this, the more familiar you become with the consciousness that observes the function of the lesser mind/spirit. This, when grasped even for a moment, is true nature. (IMHE)

 

Effective concentration is being able to issue intention directly from your Soul, bypassing the mind, but to do that you have to find the place of nothingness between Yin and Yang. Your breath can help you find this state.

 

I got carried away. Either way. IMO it is this entity that you experience in a state of perfect concentration that reincarnates. Not the body, not the mind, but beyond that. The observer that lies beyond the simple mind.

Edited December 12, 2011 by effilang

[3bob]

Yes but Tara is an aspect of Buddha! Women can reach enlightenment.

 

 

Some "women" might take that as as a form of male patronizing...? What is a woman or a man anyway, they are Beings.

 

And some other stuff for consideration if one is inclined to do so:

 

"The full-length Dharmakshema version of the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra, in contrast, insists that even the icchantika can eventually find release into Nirvana, since no phenomenon is fixed (including this type of allegedly deluded person) and that change for the better and best is always a possibility. Other scriptures (such as the Lankavatara Sutra) indicate that the icchantikas will be saved through the liberational power of the Buddha - who, it is claimed, will never abandon any being".

 

From Zen:

A. [A student] asked: "Does a dog have Buddha-nature or not?" The master said: "It does not." [The student] said: "Everything has Buddha-nature, from the Buddhas above to the ants below. Why does a dog not have it?" The master said, "Because it has the nature of karmically conditioned consciousness."

 

B. [A student] asked: "Does an oak tree also have Buddha-nature or not?" The master said: "It has." [The student] said: "Then when will it become a Buddha?" The master said: "When the sky falls to the earth." [The student] said: "When will the sky fall to the earth?" The master said: "When the oak tree becomes a Buddha."

 

C. [A student] asked: "Does a dog have Buddha-nature or not?" The master said: The [road] in front of every house leads to Ch'ang-an [the capital]."

 

Om

[steve]

The fact that you have any memory at all isn't proof to you that atoms have the probability of memory in some form?

No, I don't see my memory as proof that individual atoms manifest memory.

I'm not saying that the possibility doesn't exist but there is no proof that I am aware of, and based on what I currently understand I do not think memory exists at the atomic level. I think memory occurs at a higher level of organization though how much higher I don't know. I could certainly be wrong and some of the nano-processor type work is intriguing. For me, the more compelling question is where does consciousness reside? Where does it arise from? Where does it return to? Not really looking for specific answers because I don't know if they exist, but the existence fo the questions keeps the investigation going, both on the scientific front and the meditative front.

 

That's why I'm a hippie (Bodhisattva, Yes I took the vow), with love anything is possible! Just looked in the mirror and had to kiss myself because...

Me too! I went from teenage hippie, to young adult professional, back to middle aged hippie (though I still dress like a professional at work!)

[Patrick Brown]

Some "women" might take that as as a form of male patronizing...?

 

Oh don't get me wrong it's just that there are some that think women find it much more difficult to realise if not impossible. I don't, men and women are equal and the more equal they are the greater their bliss! LOL

 

I'll try and get back to you on the other stuff, bit busy at the mo.

[Patrick Brown]

Me too! I went from teenage hippie, to young adult professional, back to middle aged hippie (though I still dress like a professional at work!)

Yes I try and fit in but every now and then I let my hair down and wear a flowery shirt and old jeans. Oh and I never wash my hair in shampoo, just water!

[suninmyeyes]

For me, the more compelling question is where does consciousness reside? Where does it arise from? Where does it return to? Not really looking for specific answers because I don't know if they exist, but the existence for the questions keeps the investigation going, both on the scientific front and the meditative front.

 

Hello Steve ,

can I offer some sort of answer anyway? It is an interesting pondering material I just cannot resist right now.

Anyway I am glad you are not here to respond immediatly, so I will take that as yes:D.

 

Where is it not that conscioussnes resides?

Does it arise or ?

Could it appear to arise through the dynamic between a perception (individuality)and what is ? What is what is? Do all questions have an answer that can be written?

Just remebering what Rumi said in one of his poems,

 

 

I have lived on the lip of insanity,

Wanting to know reasons,

Knocking on the door.

 

It opens.

 

Ive been knocking from the inside!

Edited December 12, 2011 by suninmyeyes

[C T]

Driven by desire and karma, the mind incessantly seeks new forms/objects. While in the body, that is the platform used, through which the gross senses are utilized ~ at death, another platform is accessed, another set of faculty forms, albeit subtler, and so on. This can be observed in the various stages of human 'growth' as well, from birth, to maturity, to adulthood, and into old age to death.

 

Here is a well-written article (entitled The Soul in Buddhism) which expands on the above:

http://www.arrowriver.ca/dhamma/soul.html

 

And a bonus article on the same subject:

http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/karma.html

Edited December 12, 2011 by C T

[steve]

Yes I try and fit in but every now and then I let my hair down and wear a flowery shirt and old jeans. Oh and I never wash my hair in shampoo, just water!

 

You've got me there...

I'm a soap and shampoo user, I guess I'm just a poser after all!

 

 

Hello Steve ,

can I offer some sort of answer anyway? It is an interesting pondering material I just cannot resist right now.

Anyway I am glad you are not here to respond immediatly, so I will take that as yes:D.

 

Where is it not that conscioussnes resides?

Does it arise or ?

Could it appear to arise through the dynamic between a perception (individuality)and what is ? What is what is? Do all questions have an answer that can be written?

Just remebering what Rumi said in one of his poems,

 

 

I have lived on the lip of insanity,

Wanting to know reasons,

Knocking on the door.

 

It opens.

 

Ive been knocking from the inside!

I'm glad I wasn't around to stop you!

And you know I would never do that.

 

Wonderful poem... really wonderful.

Also, the link that life-force posted in his non-duality thread is well worth the read.

[Informer]